Jehovah's Witnesses and Catholics.

[LennyUSA]

Ok, I understand. That makes sence. here is anoth thing that troubles me. In revelations and other scriptures it talks about a reasurection of people. So if everyone who dies is eather in purgatory hell or heaven where would they be reasurected from?

 

[SteveVH]

Ok, I understand. That makes sence. here is anoth thing that troubles me. In revelations and other scriptures it talks about a reasurection of people. So if everyone who dies is eather in purgatory hell or heaven where would they be reasurected from?

We will be resurrected from the the grave. It is when we will be re-joined with our bodies which will be glorified, just as Jesus body was glorified. Prior to the resurrection on the last day, we will exist in a spiritual state, apart from our bodies.

 

[SteveVH]

We were able to have them come back maybe 5 or 6 times. Jim would bring someone new each time. It was very interesting and we enjoyed the challange. But I think they realized that, especially after I had found this site and spent hours here reading, researching, and reading the Bible, that they weren’t going to get anywhere with us.

After talking with them, Mormons and reading other threads I find it amazing that people can believe what they do. There is only one correct answer! And when the test comes at the end, I want to have the right answer.

You must have much better tact than I.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Ok, I understand. That makes sence. here is anoth thing that troubles me. In revelations and other scriptures it talks about a reasurection of people. So if everyone who dies is eather in purgatory hell or heaven where would they be reasurected from?

Their physical bodies are resurrected. You may have seen drawings of cemeteries and bodies coming up out of their graves, but of course for most of the bodies of everyone who has ever lived will have long mouldered to dust ("Dust thou art, and to dust thou wilt return). Therefore there is no longer a body to be raised! It has turned to dust. So, what the resurrection means is that God will create new glorified bodies for us that will not be subject to death, sickness nor sadness.

“And He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and there shall no longer be death; there shall no longer be mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.” Revelation 21:4.

“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable must put on imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.” 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.

Paul means that the bodies of the Christians who happen to be still alive at the last trumpet will be changed to imperishable, and the bodies of all the dead will be “raised” imperishable, and re-united with their souls, from hell, purgatory, or heaven.

 

[LennyUSA]

Ohh i get it. Everything seems to be like going together. I like that. The Catholic Church can be traced back to Christ. Why do so many people not know that. Why do so many people leave. It seems that now days people could care less about the Church. So do you believe the Christ’s body is in heaven or just his spirit? And Mary and other Saints were their body’s put up there or just their Spirit?

 

[Lucky10279]

Jesus was ascended body and soul into heaven. Mary was assumed body and soul. Other saints left their bodies on earth.
Mikayla

 

[SteveVH]

Ohh i get it. Everything seems to be like going together. I like that. The Catholic Church can be traced back to Christ. Why do so many people not know that. Why do so many people leave. It seems that now days people could care less about the Church. So do you believe the Christ’s body is in heaven or just his spirit? And Mary and other Saints were their body’s put up there or just their Spirit?

Yes, the Catholic Church can be traced directly back to Christ and it stands alone in the world as the only Church that can legitimately make that claim. Anyone with intellectual honesty and a little knowledge of history has to admit this fact.

There are people who leave the Church, but in reality the Church continues to grow, so there are more entering than leaving. Numbers, however, are not really important. It is the truth that is important, regardless of how many choose to walk away from that truth.

Lucky10279 very aptly answered the rest of your question. Christ came to earth and assumed the nature of a human, while remaining 100% God. When He ascended, it was with His glorified human body, which he will have for the rest of eternity. Our bodies will also be glorified when we are resurrected on the last day and will be with us for eternity as well.

It is Christ’s humanity that brings dignity to us all as humans. He did not loose this humanity when He rose from the dead. His “person” will forever be 100% human and 100% divine. The human person consists of both spirit and body and so we will be for eternity, though in a different state of being. We do not loose our humanity and become only spirits.

 

[LennyUSA]

Yes, the Catholic Church can be traced directly back to Christ and it stands alone in the world as the only Church that can legitimately make that claim. Anyone with intellectual honesty and a little knowledge of history has to admit this fact.

There are people who leave the Church, but in reality the Church continues to grow, so there are more entering than leaving. Numbers, however, are not really important. It is the truth that is important, regardless of how many choose to walk away from that truth.

Lucky10279 very aptly answered the rest of your question. Christ came to earth and assumed the nature of a human, while remaining 100% God. When He ascended, it was with His glorified human body, which he will have for the rest of eternity. Our bodies will also be glorified when we are resurrected on the last day and will be with us for eternity as well.

It is Christ’s humanity that brings dignity to us all as humans. He did not loose this humanity when He rose from the dead. His “person” will forever be 100% human and 100% divine. The human person consists of both spirit and body and so we will be for eternity, though in a different state of being. We do not loose our humanity and become only spirits.

Can you quote from the bible please? Is Mary in heaven with body because she is the mother of God?

 

[LOCO]

. And even if we knew exactly when Jesus was born we would not celebrate it ether. And Easter is incredibly pagan.

Why not celebrate Jesus birthday?? The wise men brought him birthday gifts and the shepherds and angels celebrated his birth. The fact that he was not born on 25DEC is irrelevant.

Not everything Jesus thought, said and did is written in the Bible.

**If the Catholic Church is True why are so many people leaving it. **

On the contrary the Catholic Church is still the largest church in the world over 1billion followers and it is spreading rapidly in the Third World and Asia.

Why are they doing bad and why did they make other groups against the Catholic Church.

I don’t know of any Church who does not have members who behave badly.

Is the end going to come soon or something like that.

Why are JW’s so obsessed with the end of world. Live for today, focus on doing good today, focus on building your faith today. Remember the Sermon on the Mount

---

Matthew 6:27 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?

**And if you want to convert all nations why not preech door to door and do better in the preeching work? **

Different Christians are given different ‘gifts’. Not all Christians are preachers. Concentrate by living your daily life, behaving and speaking in the manner of Christ converts others to Christianity. Let people encounter Christ when they meet you in your daily activities, it doesn’t need to be an agressive concentrated effort. Actions usually speak louder than words

And these people Like Jesus Mary and others are not up there in Body and flesh as the catholic Church teaches.

How do you explain Jesus assumption into heaven body and flesh?

How do you explain Peter, James & John seeing Moses, Elijah and Jesus together in MATT17vs9?

It all boils down to which Church do you believe has the ‘AUTHORITY’ to interpret Sacred Scripture. Anyone can say “this is what this verse means”, but do they have the ‘authority’ passed onto them from Christ.

Only that ‘authority’ would make their interpretation of Sacred Scripture ‘valid’.

For Catholics that choice is easy.

Jesus appointed Peter the head of the Church when he gave him the keys alone.
Jesus asked Peter to tend to his sheep, feed his sheep
Jesus gave all the disciples (Bishops) the power to forgive and retain sins confessed to them
Jesus promised that he would protect his Church via the Holy Spirit (he wanted one universal Church, not 15000 fractured churches)
The Catholic Church ALONE has an unbroken documented history back to the Christ himself

I don’t know of any other Church that makes the same claims and has done so uninterrupted for the past 2000years.

Your friend in Christ

 

[T_More]

Can you quote from the bible please? Is Mary in heaven with body because she is the mother of God?

Lenny, Revelation 12:1 (emphasis mine)

1 And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars

There are prior examples in scripture of bodily assumption into heaven, such as Enoch (Genesis 5:24), Elijah (2 Kings 2:11) and probably Moses, as he appeared at the Transfiguration with Elijah and Jesus on Mt Tabor.

Mary carried God Incarnate in her womb, a far greater honor bestowed upon her than anything Enoch or Elijah ever received. Mary gave up her son for the redemption of the whole world and did it faithfully without sin. Why wouldn’t she be given the same honor for faithfully assenting to God’s will?

 

[TobyLue]

Lenny – going back to Ecclesiastes 9:5 *“For the living know that they themselves will die, yet truly the dead know nothing anymore, nor do they have any recompense. For the memory of them is forgotten.” *You will find your answer on 9:6 *‘Likewise, love and hatred and envy have all perished together, nor have they any place in this age **and in the work which is done under the sun.”***Notice the bold part – these verses are referring to life here on earth. Of course when a person dies his body does not have any feeling nor is there any thought in their brain. Remember St Paul speaking about being away from this “tent” and being with the Lord. If as JW’s say there is no soul because of Ecc 9:5, then what is St Paul talking about on 2 Cor, 5? He wants “…*to be exiled from the body and make our home with the Lord.”
*
Re:
“Then God said “Let US make man in our image…” who is the US in the above passage to which you replied “They would say Jesus and the Angels.” I know the JW’s teach that Jesus is/was St. Michael the Archangel, but if God is the creator of heaven and earth and God created the angels, how can the angels do any type of creation. They cannot create, so this utterly destroys their belief that “Let US make man in our image” is talking about Jesus and the Angels.

On top of that we know that the Angels worship only God. If Jesus is/was an archangel, why do we see in Hebrews 1:6 “*God has never said to any angel: You are my Son today I have become your father: or: I will be a father to him and he a son to me. Again when he brings the First-born into the world he says: Let all angels of God worship him.” *In the Baptism of Jesus in the Jordan Matt 3:17 *“and a voice spoke from heaven, ‘This is MY SON, the Beloved: my favor rests on him’.” * (emphasis mine)Is this a contradiction to Hebrews? Angels worship ONLY God so how can the angels worship one of their own?

One other thing; if as the Watchtower says that Jesus is NOT God, then how to they reconcile Isaiah 43:11 *“I, I am Yahweh, there is no other savior but me” *with 2 Peter2:20 “…and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know our Lord and savior Jesus Christ….” (emphasis mine) how can there be two saviors one God and one an angel?

God Bless you young man and may He guide you to the fullness of Trust in the CC. I shall include you in my daily prayers.

 

[LennyUSA]

Lenny – going back to Ecclesiastes 9:5 *“For the living know that they themselves will die, yet truly the dead know nothing anymore, nor do they have any recompense. For the memory of them is forgotten.” *You will find your answer on 9:6 ‘Likewise, love and hatred and envy have all perished together, nor have they any place in this age **and in the work which is done under the sun.”**Notice the bold part – these verses are referring to life here on earth. Of course when a person dies his body does not have any feeling nor is there any thought in their brain. Remember St Paul speaking about being away from this “tent” and being with the Lord. If as JW’s say there is no soul because of Ecc 9:5, then what is St Paul talking about on 2 Cor, 5? He wants “…*to be exiled from the body and make our home with the Lord.”
*
Re:
“Then God said “Let US make man in our image…” who is the US in the above passage to which you replied “They would say Jesus and the Angels.” I know the JW’s teach that Jesus is/was St. Michael the Archangel, but if God is the creator of heaven and earth and God created the angels, how can the angels do any type of creation. They cannot create, so this utterly destroys their belief that “Let US make man in our image” is talking about Jesus and the Angels.

On top of that we know that the Angels worship only God. If Jesus is/was an archangel, why do we see in Hebrews 1:6 “God has never said to any angel: You are my Son today I have become your father: or: I will be a father to him and he a son to me. Again when he brings the First-born into the world he says: Let all angels of God worship him.” In the Baptism of Jesus in the Jordan Matt 3:17 *“and a voice spoke from heaven, ‘This is MY SON, the Beloved: my favor rests on him’.” * (emphasis mine)Is this a contradiction to Hebrews? Angels worship ONLY God so how can the angels worship one of their own?

One other thing; if as the Watchtower says that Jesus is NOT God, then how to they reconcile Isaiah 43:11 “I, I am Yahweh, there is no other savior but me” with 2 Peter2:20 “…and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world once by coming to know our Lord and savior Jesus Christ….” (emphasis mine) how can there be two saviors one God and one an angel?

God Bless you young man and may He guide you to the fullness of Trust in the CC. I shall include you in my daily prayers.

Thank you so much! I want to know the truth. I hope I am brought to the truth. So what is there need to be done to get more faith? I think I already have a better faith in God but how do i keep it? I know it has been just a few days but it’s weird I can already feel Holy Spirit.

 

[pablope]

Thank you so much! I want to know the truth. I hope I am brought to the truth. So what is there need to be done to get more faith? I think I already have a better faith in God but how do i keep it? I know it has been just a few days but it’s weird I can already feel Holy Spirit.

From John 5: 56: Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood(A) abides in me, and I in him.

As the verse said, receive the Lord’s body, blood, soul and divinity. Pray in total surrender to the Lord’s will and plan for you.

 

[Lucky10279]

Pray, pray pray! Pray to Mary too. This may be very hard if you listened to the witnesses but trust me on this. you really need too.
Mikayla

 

[TobyLue]

Lenny

Thank you so much! I want to know the truth. I hope I am brought to the truth. So what is there need to be done to get more faith? I think I already have a better faith in God but how do i keep it? I know it has been just a few days but it’s weird I can already feel Holy Spirit.

I know this may be difficult for you in your situation and young age, but if you can go to the nearest Catholic Church, find out when they have Eucharistic Adoration and go spend a quiet moment in front of the Blessed Sacrament and ask Jesus to help you. You need not be Catholic to participate in this moment of adoration. If there is no Adoration at that moment and the church is open, go and look for the Tabernacle. Our Lord is present there and contemplate on the life of our Lord and His greatness, his awesomeness and repeat this prayer with love:* O Jesus, I adore you, who, in your love divine, conceal your mighty Godhead in forms of bread and wine. O Lord, I am not worthy that You should come to me,but speak the words of comfort, my spirit healed shall be. O Sacrament most holy, O Sacrament divine! All praise and all thanksgiving be every moment Thine.*"

These are some words to a very beautiful Catholic hymn. Spending moments before the Blessed Sacrament will be extremely rewarding.

Oh, and don’t be afraid to “repeat” prayers. There is nothing in scripture against repetitive prayers. Jesus himself repeats the same prayer during his agony in the garden. It’s prayers repeated in “vain” that Jesus is talking about.
Example: In Luke the tax collector repeating the prayers to God to have mercy on him. In Revelations the angels repeating the prayers “Holy, Holy, Holy Is the Lord God Almighty”, and there are others.

 

[TobyLue]

pablope

From John 5: 56: Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood(A) abides in me, and I in him.

As the verse said, receive the Lord’s body, blood, soul and divinity. Pray in total surrender to the Lord’s will and plan for you.

Lenny is not yet Catholic so unfortunately he is not able to receive our Lord in the Holy Eucharistic.
Lenny can, however, make a spiritual communion like “My Jesus, I believe that You are present in the Most Holy Sacrament. I love You above all things, and I desire to receive You into my soul. Since I cannot at this moment receive You sacramentally, come at least spiritually into my heart. I embrace You as if You were already there and unite myself wholly to You. Never permit me to be separated from You.”

 

[SteveVH]

Can you quote from the bible please? Is Mary in heaven with body because she is the mother of God?

Sorry I have been so long in getting back to this thread. There is reference in the Book of Revelation concerning a “woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and around her head a crown of twelve stars.” I am paraphrasing as I’m at work. However, Mary’s bodily assumption into heaven is not specifically stated in the Bible as it took place after most of the New Testament had already been written.
Not everything is included in the Bible. The Bible is really just that part of Sacred Tradition put down in writing. Remember, the canon of the Bible was not determined for nearly 400 years after Christ. The Church held to the sacred teachings handed down by the Apostles and when the books that were to be included in the Scriptures were determined, they were measured against Sacred Tradition in order to determine their authenticity as to the faith already held. In other words, the Church did not come from the Bible, the Bible came from the Church.

Mary’s bodily assumption into heaven is a doctrine of the Church, one of the few times that a Pope has spoken “infallibly” from the Chair of Peter. The belief that this occurred, however, was long held by the Church prior to the Pope’s proclamation. It was part of the Church’s “Tradition”.

 

[vsedriver]

The only time the bible ever mentions birthdays were twice. When King Herod beheaded John the Baptist and a Pharaohs Birthdays. And Jesus was not born in December because they would not have had their flocks out at that time. And even if we knew exactly when Jesus was born we would not celebrate it ether. And Easter is incredibly pagan. The eggs symbolize fertility in pagan traditions. And Jesus wanted us to remember it on the Passover correct? Not every day as the Catholic do with daily Mass. I don’t know if that’s true. After i had had these questions answered we will touch on the history of the Catholic Church.

you are missing a very important birthday! Jesus’s birthday is celebrated in the Bible. Shepherds praised him, 3 wise men gave him birthday presents, Angels sang at his birth. Sounds like a whole lot of celebrating going on. You don’t know that they didn’t celebrate with special foods either since it just doesn’t mention it.

As to why Christ’s birth is celebrated on the Solstice is easy to explain. Catholics and Christians are not celebrating Christ’s birthDAY, but Christ’s BIRTH. Since Christ is also the ‘light of the world’ it made a lot of sense to celebrate his birth when the days would begin to lengthen in the liturgical year. It clearly illustrates his light entering a world that was previously dark. Also since Easter takes place in the spring it didn’t make sense to have two major Holy Days ( yes the word is HOLY day and shortened by language use to holiday) in the same season of the year. Nothing, not even the Holy Day of Christ’s Birth should detract from the Holiness of Easter.

don’t get so tripped up on language. Words and customs age and change among people. There is nothing wrong with that. I still hate Mondays even though I don’t worship the moon. Learn the meaning behind the words and customs. The swastika is a hated symbol around the world but it wasn’t exclusive to the Nazis. Native Americans used it as a religious symbol. Which culture has prior claim?

That the early Germanic tribes worshiped trees. Does that mean Christians can’t use a tree to symbolize the future cross?

 

[SteveVH]

Ok, I think I understand that. So many times the Witnesses changes what the bible says but the general meaning is still there. But the bible i thought was not written by 6 people because in my NWT bible it says that all the people that were making it would remain Anonymous.
So i guess Jesus could be God. I am not entirely sure about that yet. But the other things holidays are traditions of man. Birthdays would not have been celebrated by early Christians. Meaning the ones when Jesus was around. The only time the bible ever mentions birthdays were twice. When King Herod beheaded John the Baptist and a Pharaohs Birthdays. And Jesus was not born in December because they would not have had their flocks out at that time. And even if we knew exactly when Jesus was born we would not celebrate it ether. And Easter is incredibly pagan. The eggs symbolize fertility in pagan traditions. And Jesus wanted us to remember it on the Passover correct? Not every day as the Catholic do with daily Mass. I don’t know if that’s true. After i had had these questions answered we will touch on the history of the Catholic Church.

Lenny, ask your JW friends why they wear wedding rings. These are also pagan in origin.

Vsedriver made a great point which the JW’s never address, and that is the birth of Jesus which was not only celebrated on earth, but also in heaven.

Why would one not want to celebrate the birth of their child, or their parent, or their siblings, or their friends. Think about it. What is evil about celebrating the birth of someone you love. Are you not happy that they were born? Is it not clearly an event to be celebrated?

When Moses came down from the mountain with the Ten Commandments, I don’t think anyone was shocked that commiting adultery, or stealing, or killing, or dishonering their parents were bad things. Now if he would have come down with a commandment that said “Thou shalt not celebrate the birth of your children” I think most people would have been scratching their heads wondering why God would possibly not want us to celebrate the very life He created.

God’s laws are written on our hearts. When someone comes up with a law that conflicts with what is written on our hearts, you should think twice before falling for it. They do not even want us to celebrate the birth of our Savior. Why? Think about it.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Actually it is not twice, but three times that the Bible mentions celebration of birthdays. The JW’s hope you will not know about the ones mentioned in Job 1:4:

“His sons [Job’s] used to go and hold a feast in the house of each on his day; and they would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them.”

“His day” would have to mean his birthday.

The Watchtower argument about not celebrating birthdays is extremely weak, and its real purpose is just to provide something to pick about, to argue about. It has no other merit, but just to be contentious. After all, wedding anniversary celebrations are permitted, and those are just celebrations of the birthday of a marriage! The question one needs to ask, “does the Watchtower have the authority to interpret the Bible?” Is their reasoning really valid, or merely made up in order to be different and provide something to dispute about? I believe this applies to birthdays.

About the bodily assumption of Mary, I think of it as an historical event. There are lots of historical events and people we believe in, like the battle of Waterloo, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, which are not mentioned in the inspired Bible! In spite of that, we don’t doubt that they existed. The assumption of Mary is the same thing–it happened, and people knew that it happened, and that historical knowledge was told to following generations of Christians.

After all, why should we think that everything is in Scripture, anyway?