C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
I was hoping to see reslight’s response to my last few posts. 
- Status
J
Javl
Guest
Reading these posts, and especially those of reslight, I see the heresy of Arianism being promulgated and preached all over again. Arianism has been refuted by the Church ( Council of Nicea ) and the theologians and doctors of the Church, such as Athanasius, Alexander of Alexandria, Aquinas, Jerome, Augustine, etc. all have proven it to be false and a heresy. The proof presented is definite. I would recommend that all, especially reslight and all “Bible Students”, read their works and understand that the Holy Trinity is real. The Son of God ( the Word ) IS God the Son and is separate from the Father and Holy Spirit. All three share the One Nature, Glory, Majesty, and Power without diminution.I was hoping to see reslight’s response to my last few posts.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
T
T_More
Guest
Javl, all that you say is true, but reslight, and others that come from the position that they defend, will say that it was the CC that was suppressing Christ’s true teachings and it was they who were the heretics, or “apostates”. I know, because I would see JW’s do the very thing I’m describing. The irony in that is the fact that as far as JW’s go, no matter how hard they look, they can’t find anywhere where their complete teachings were taught in anywhere in history.Reading these posts, and especially those of reslight, I see the heresy of Arianism being promulgated and preached all over again. Arianism has been refuted by the Church ( Council of Nicea ) and the theologians and doctors of the Church, such as Athanasius, Alexander of Alexandria, Aquinas, Jerome, Augustine, etc. all have proven it to be false and a heresy. The proof presented is definite. I would recommend that all, especially reslight and all “Bible Students”, read their works and understand that the Holy Trinity is real. The Son of God ( the Word ) IS God the Son and is separate from the Father and Holy Spirit. All three share the One Nature, Glory, Majesty, and Power without diminution.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
R
reslight
Guest
No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him. — World English.
No one has seen God at any time ; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. — New American Standard.
theon oudeis hewraken pwpote monogenees theos
GOD NO ONE HAS SEEN AT ANY TIME; ONLY BEGOTTEN GOD
2316 3762 3708 4455 3439 2316
ho wn eis ton kolpon tou patros ekeinos
THE (ONE) BEING INTO THE BOSOM OF THE FATHER THAT (ONE)
3588 1511_1 1519 3588 2859 3588 3962 1565
exeegeesato
EXPLAINED.
1834
Westcott & Hort Interlinear, as obtained from the Bible Students Library DVD:
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, that One declares Him. — Green’s Literal Translation.
Regardless of which translation is used, we find nothing in the verse about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as three persons. Any such idea has to assumed beyond what is written, added to, and read into, what John wrote.
Regardless of all the arguments against the idea, genes (presumed to be a form of genos or genea) in monogenes does indicate a beginning, or being brought forth. Some say it simply means “one of a kind,” and yet, genos/genea means “kind” in reference a race or people who share a common origin or development, which does go back to the idea of being brought forth into existence. The Greek words are never used of people or a kind that was never brought forth into existence, as is claimed for the Son of God. An examination of the usage of genos, as well as genea, all through the New Testament will demonstrate this.
studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1085
studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=1074
The word monogenes appears in the following verses: Luke 7:12; 8:44; 9:38; John 1:14; 1:18; 3:16,18; Hebrews 11:17; 1 John 4:9.
When the scripture says no one has seen God, who is this “God”? Who is “him” that Jesus makes known or explains? Is a triune God that no one has seen? Does the word “God” whom no one has seen mean three persons? “The only begotten God” is seen as being differrent from “God” whom no one has seen. Again, it should evident that the word “God” is being used of one person, not three persons, and that it is only one person that Jesus came to make known, not a triune God.
What the trinitarian has to do is use the spirit of human imagination, assume that “God” whom no one has seen refers to the their alleged first person of their alleged triune God, and then further use the spirit of human imagination so as to assume that “the only-begotten” refers to their alleged second person of their alleged triune God.
See my study on “The Only-Begotten God”
J
Javl
Guest
Might I ask who is the “us” and “we” that God says in Genesis 1? Also who is “the Word” In John 1:1-3?
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
F
Fidei
Guest
reslight—too much substance but nothing in it.
Just read John 1:1 and others posted before and be enlightened.
Human imagination leads to the disbelief of Trinity…because of Russel’s and Rutherford’s insatiable need to disassociate themselves from mainline Christianity, they had to make their doctrines horridly unique and blaspheme the word itself claiming to be “bible students” or “witnesses of jehovah” when their beliefs states otherwise.
Just read John 1:1 and others posted before and be enlightened.
Human imagination leads to the disbelief of Trinity…because of Russel’s and Rutherford’s insatiable need to disassociate themselves from mainline Christianity, they had to make their doctrines horridly unique and blaspheme the word itself claiming to be “bible students” or “witnesses of jehovah” when their beliefs states otherwise.
F
Fidei
Guest
Reslight—
by the way, you still haven’t answered my question, where in the bible does it PLAINLY say that Christ is not God? no distinctions please, every person is distinct (This doesn’t disprove the trinity at all)
by the way, you still haven’t answered my question, where in the bible does it PLAINLY say that Christ is not God? no distinctions please, every person is distinct (This doesn’t disprove the trinity at all)
R
reslight
Guest
The angels of God are also the angels of the Son of God, the Son of the Man, David. Does mean that we should should the great spirit of human imagination so as to as assume and add to this that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? And then to add further to this that Jesus is the “second person” of an alleged triune God?
Actually, the scriptures reveal that the One identified as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has given all to Jesus (John 3:35; 13:3; 17:7; Ephesians 1:20,21) excluding the position of Most High – 1 Corinthians 15:27), so that even the angels are made subject to, and are to bow to Jesus. (Hebrews 1:4,5; 1 Peter 3:22) The very fact that this all is given to Jesus proves that Jesus is not the Most High, since the Most High does not need such to given to him. Additionally, if Jesus is a person of God because the angels are given to him, then it would mean that Jesus became such a person of God when he received the name (office) greater than the angels.
Jesus plainly says that he was not the only true God in John 17:3, and rather than declaring himself to be a person of the only true God, declared that he was not the only true God by saying that he had been sent by the only true God. In his words to the only true God, Jesus said: “Now they know that all things whatever you have given me are from you.” (John 17:7) By this he further declares that he is not the only true God, for he states that all things he has was given to him from the only true God.
So why are the angels considered to be his angels, as well as the angels of the only true God. In the manner that the throne of Israel could be called the throne of Yahweh, and at the same time, the throne of David.
We read that Solomon set on the throne of David:
1 Kings 2:12 WEB
Solomon sat on the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.
But Solomon sat on the throne of Yahweh:
1 Chronicles 29:23 WEB
Then Solomon sat on the throne of Yahweh as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.
Does this mean that David is a person of Yahweh?
The Messiah sits on the throne of David:
Isaiah 9:7 WEB
Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this.
Does this mean that David is a person of the Messiah?
Another illustration:
Exodus 12:51 - It happened the same day, that Yahweh brought the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their hosts
Yahweh alone did lead him [Israel/Jacob - verse 9], There was no foreign god with him. – Deuteronomy 32:12.
Exodus 15:22: Moses led Israel onward from the Red Sea, and they went out into the wilderness of Shur; and they went three days in the wilderness, and found no water.
Does this mean that we should use the spirit of human imagination so as to suppose that Moses is a person of Yahweh?
No, but we should compare spiritual revelation with spiritual revelation rather than to add to the revelation a thought not found in the revelation.
Further revelation reveals:
Psalm 77:20: You [Yahweh] led your people like a flock, By (as an instrument used) the hand of Moses and Aaron.
Hosea 12:13 - By (as instrument used) a prophet Yahweh brought Israel up out of Egypt, And by a prophet he was preserved.
Likewise, God works through, by means of, Jesus whom he has appointed, as can be seen regarding the judgment of the world.
Psalm 96:13 - Before Yahweh; for he comes, For he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, The peoples with his truth.
Psalm 98:9 - Let them sing before Yahweh, For he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, And the peoples with equity.
Acts 17:31 - because he [Yahweh*] has appointed a day in which he [Yahweh] will judge the world in righteousness by [as an instrument] the man [person] whom he [Yahweh] has ordained; whereof he [Yahweh] has given assurance to all men, in that he [Yahweh] has raised him [Jesus] from the dead."
*“God”, spoken of in Acts 17:24-30, is being revealed as one person, as distinct from the one whom he ordained as spoken of in Acts 17:31. Acts 17:27, by indirectly referencing scriptures relating to seeking Yahweh (such as Zephaniah 2:3; 8:21), identifies who the unipersonal “God” is that is being referred to, and it is this unipersonal God that that is being referred to in Acts 17:29 by the Greek word transliterated as “Theios,” a form of Theos, which word is rendered in some translations as “Godhead”. It is obvious from the context, that the one ordained by this unipersonal God is not included in this “Godhead.”
One does have put on the blinding forces of trinitarian imagination so as not to see that the scriptures are declaring that Jesus is not Yahweh, but rather the instrument used by Yahweh. Nevertheless, the onus is not on those who deny that Jesus is not Yahweh to prove such, but it the onus is on the those who claim that Jesus is Yahweh to prove such. The default is that Jesus is not Yahweh, not that Jesus is Yahweh. The Bible writers had no reason to state that Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, for the default is that Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, which is demonstrated all through the whole Bible.
godandson.reslight.net/archives/1298.html
F
Fidei
Guest
You have a point saying Solomon and Moses acts the same way as Yahweh does, therefore we cannot conclude them as one being.
Except nowhere does scripture say that these men are the creators and the Word made Flesh thus we can only conclude that Christ is this one being with God.
Col. 2:8-9
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the FULLNESS of the DEITY [Godhead] lives in bodily form,
Diety, meaning a Godly race-- but we only have One God, not as the Dieties of pagan Rome and Greece etc…
And about Eusebeus’ translation rendered as “baptize in MY name”,
Similar 3-named persons occur elsewhere in the NT.
2 Corinthians 13:14
14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
1 Peter 1:2
2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
These words from the apostles bear much resemblance [actual] teachings to the modern Catholic where we are to act in accordance to these three persons
Except nowhere does scripture say that these men are the creators and the Word made Flesh
thus we can only conclude that Christ is this one being with God.Col. 2:8-9
8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the FULLNESS of the DEITY [Godhead] lives in bodily form,
Diety, meaning a Godly race-- but we only have One God, not as the Dieties of pagan Rome and Greece etc…
And about Eusebeus’ translation rendered as “baptize in MY name”,
Similar 3-named persons occur elsewhere in the NT.
2 Corinthians 13:14
14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
1 Peter 1:2
2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
These words from the apostles bear much resemblance [actual] teachings to the modern Catholic where we are to act in accordance to these three persons
R
reslight
Guest
Likewise, nowhere does the scripture say that Jesus is the Creator.
Yes, the one sent by the only true God was made flesh. There is nothing in this that means that Jesus, the Word of God, is the only true God who sent him.and the Word made Flesh
Thus, the scriptural conclusion is that Jesus is NOT the only true God who sent Jesus.
R
reslight
Guest
From the World English:
8 Be careful that you don’t let anyone rob you through his philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him all the fullness [Greek, pleroma, plenitude] of the Godhead [Greek, theotes, mightiness] dwells bodily,
And this continues…
Colossians 2:10 and in [instrumental, by means of] him you are made full, who is the head of all principality and power.
Pleroma denotes that which is full for the what is being spoken of; plenitude. Theotes, an abstract form of theos, as derived from the Hebrew forms of EL, denotes the quality of strength, mightiness. Some translation render theotes as “divine quality,” which is fine, if one recognizes the word “divine” as being represented by the Hebraic background.
Colossians 2:9,10 agrees with Ephesians 1:17-21:
Ephesians 1:17 that the [unipersonal] God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him;
Ephesians 1:18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of his calling, and what are the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Ephesians 1:19 and what is the exceeding greatness of his power toward us who believe, according to that working of the strength of his might
Ephesians 1:20 which he [the unipersonal God of our Lord Jesus] worked in Christ, when he [the unipersonal God of Jesus] raised him [Jesus] from the dead, and made him to sit at his right hand in the heavenly places,
Ephesians 1:21 far above all rule, and authority, and power, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.
Ephesians 1:22 He [the unipersonal God of Jesus] put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the assembly
This power given to Jesus does not mean that Jesus became a person of the “God” who gave this power to Jesus.
Paul states what should be evident to all the exception regarding this subjection of all things to Jesus:
1 Corinthians 15:27 For, “He put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when he says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.
Thus, Jesus does not become the Most High God because the only Most High has subjected all things to Jesus.
Yes, the only true God has given to Jesus in his resurrection body all the necessary might for Jesus to be the head of all principality and power.
R
reslight
Guest
What this does is ignore the Hebraic usage and secondary meaning of the words for deity, and instead focuses on the usage of the words as denoting one God.
Theotes, being a form of the word THEOS, is rendered from the Hebrew forms of EL.
Did Yahweh make Moses a false deity (elohim) to Pharoah? (Exodus 7:1) Are the sons of the Most High false deities? (Psalm 87:1,6; Luke 6:35; John 1:12; 10:34,35)
Genesis 31:29 It is in my power {EL] to return thee evil; but the God of your father said to me yesterday: Take heed thou speak not any thing harshly against Jacob. (Douay-Rheims)
Was Laban, by using the word for deity, EL, saying something about his false deity? Or was he simply speaking of the power that he himself possessed? Evidently, the translators of the Douay-Rheims thought that he was speaking about power, not about a false deity. Likewise, the Catholic New American renders Laban’s words similarly: “I have it in my power [EL] to harm all of you; but last night the God of your father said to me, ‘Take care not to threaten Jacob with any harm!’”
Likewise, in the very, very, very, few instances where the words for deity are applied to the one sent by only the Most High (John 17:3), we should not imagine and assume that it is referring to Most High, but rather in a more general sense of power, might, strength.
R
reslight
Guest
Further evidence of the usage of the words for deity:
Deuteronomy 28:32 May thy sons and thy daughters be given to another people, thy eyes looking on, and languishing at the sight of them all the day, and may there be no strength [EL] in thy hand. (Douay-Rheims)
Here the the Douay-Rheims renders the word for deity as “strength.” The Catholic New American seems to pass over the word EL without actually rendering it: “Your sons and daughters will be given to a foreign nation while you look on and grieve for them in constant helplessness.” At any rate, the Catholic translators of the Douay-Rheims did note that the word for deity in this verse means “strength,” not false deity, nor the Most High Yahweh.
Nehemiah 5:5 Yet now our flesh is as the flesh of our brethren, our children as their children: and, lo, we bring into bondage our sons and our daughters to be servants, and some of our daughters are brought unto bondage already: neither is it in our power [EL] to redeem them; for other men have our lands and vineyards. (Douay-Rheims)
Here the Catholic translators rendered the word for deity as “power”. The New American again seems to ignore the word for deity in this verse, saying: “And though these are our own kinsmen and our children are as good as theirs, we have had to reduce our sons and daughters to slavery, and violence has been done to some of our daughters! Yet we can do nothing about it, for our fields and our vineyards belong to others.”
Likewise, Jesus was certainly, as the prehuman Logos, with great power (theos – John 1:1,2), but this does not mean that Jesus was the only true God whom Jesus declared that he was with. – John 17:1,3,5.
R
reslight
Guest
Some more regarding the usage of the words for deity:
Psalm 8:5 (8:6) - Thou hast made him a little less than the angels (elohim), thou hast crowned him with glory and honour: (Douay-Rheims)
Here the Catholic translators render the word for deity as “angels”. The Catholic New American renders this verse as: “Yet you have made them little less than a god (elohim), crowned them with glory and honor.” Thus these Catholic translators render the word for deity in this verse as “a god.” The New Revised Standard renders the verse as “et you have made them a little lower than God,” but in the footnote it states: “Or [than the divine beings] or [angels]: Heb [elohim].” The NRSV translators thus recognize the word “divine” as applicable to angels. But more importantly, the Catholic translators of the Douay-Rheim Version indicate that they understand that the word for deity does not mean false deities in this verse, nor does it mean “God” as applied to Yawheh the Most High. Hebrews 2:7 confirms that it is the angels [mighty beings] that are being spoken of in Psalm 8:5.
Psalm 82:1 - God hath stood in the congregation of gods [el]: and being in the midst of them he judgeth gods [elohim]. (Douay-Rheims)
Here the translators of the Douay-Rheims render both the word “el” and “elohim” as gods.The New American renders it: “God rises in the divine [el] council, gives judgment in the midst of the gods [elohim].” These “gods” are identified in Psalm 8:5 as the sons of the Most High. It these to whom the Logos came (John 10:35), and who received the Logos (John 1:12). These gods are not false deities.
Proverbs 3:27 Do not withhold him from doing good, who is able: if thou art able, do good thyself also. (Douay-Rheims) Refuse no one the good on which he has a claim when it is in your power [EL] to do it for him. (New American)
It appears here that the word of deity in the Douay-Rheims is being rendered as “able.” In this instance, the New American is clearer in rending the word for deity as “power.” Regardless, the word for deity in this verse is not being used to designate the only true God, nor is it being used to designate a false deity. It is being used generically to denote power, strength.
R
reslight
Guest
Ezekiel 32:21 The most mighty [el] among the strong ones shall speak to him from the midst of hell, they that went down with his helpers and slept uncircumcised, slain by the sword. (Douay-Rheims)
The Douay-Rheims renders the word for deity in this verse as “mighty.” It should be obvious that they did not understand that the word of deity in this verse means “false deities,” nor did they consider it to be applied to Yahweh.
The New American appears to put this in Ezekiel 32:20 as “the mighty warriors shall speak to Egypt:” Evidently it renders EL as “mighty” in the phrase “mighty warriors.”
Jonah (Jonas) 3:3 And Jonas arose, and went to Ninive, according to the word of the Lord: now Ninive was a great [el] city of three days’ journey. (Douay-Rheims)
The translators of the Douay-Rheims actually skip over the word for deity in this verse, or else they simply rendered the phrase “el gadowl” as one word, “great.” The New American renders to the word for deity as “enormously.” “So Jonah made ready and went to Nineveh, according to the LORD’S bidding. Now Nineveh was an enormously [el] large city; it took three days to go through it.” Again, however, it should be obvious that the word for deity in this verse does not mean a false deity, nor is it speaking of the the Most High Yahweh.
Thus, in the very, very, very, very, very few instances where the word for deity are actually applied to Jesus, the son of the Most High, it should likewise be understood to mean might, strength, power, etc. Jesus, the Logos of God, was with the only true God in the beginning of the world of mankind, and he was sent by the only true God into the world of mankind, and thus, he, not being the only true God, was mighty (theos) in the beginning with the only true God. – John 1:1,2; 17:1,3,5.
Being raised from the dead, he is given even greater mightiness (theotes) in his resurrection body, all that is needed (pleroma) for him to be the head of all power. – Colossians 2:9,10.
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
I see we still have some JW running around here,lets all pray for them that the day will come and they will know the truth…BTW Does Brooklyn know they are here on a Cathloic board.
R
reslight
Guest
I am not with the JWs, I am associated with the Bible Students.
R
reslight
Guest
In 2 Corinthians 13:14 and 1 Peter 1:2 we have the God of Abraham, not being revealed as a triune God, but a unipersonal God.And about Eusebeus’ translation rendered as “baptize in MY name”,
Similar 3-named persons occur elsewhere in the NT.
2 Corinthians 13:14
14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
1 Peter 1:2
2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
These words from the apostles bear much resemblance [actual] teachings to the modern Catholic where we are to act in accordance to these three persons
In 2 Corinthians 13:14, we have three things spoken of: (1) grace, (2) love, and (3) fellowship. The unipersonal “God” is spoken of as related to “love”. In the context, Jesus is not revealed as “God”, but we read of Jesus in 2 Corinthians 13:4: “For although he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God.” (Douay-Rheims) “God” in verse 4 is revealed as one person, one through whom Jesus is now has life.
Likewise, in 1 Peter 1:2, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is revealed, not as three persons, but as one person. In the next verse, Peter identifies the unipersonal God being spoken of as " the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." (Douay-Rheims) There is no thought of a triune God presented, but there is the thought of a unipersonal God presented.
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
What study are the Bible Students,and why is this thread under JW
J
Javl
Guest
If you read and understand John 1:1-3 this passage says that Jesus is the creator. This is backed up by Isaiah 17:7, 27:11, 43:15, 44:2, 44:24 plus many other passages in scripture.
Yes, there is. You mis-understand and mis-interpret scripture. John 1:1-3 refers to Jesus.
as every Christian knows ( even The Watch Tower Tract and Bible Society admits to this ).
The Father ( true God ) has sent His Son ( true God ) who came to this earth as a human being ( Jesus ). As a dutiful Son, He obeyed His Father’s request. As God the Son, He did not have to do this but because of the Love that He has for His creation, and the Father, He offered Himself as a sacrifice to the Father to appease Him.
With all the proof in scripture that Jesus IS the true God, I cannot see how anyone can ignore this proof and make such a statement. Many of the scriptural verses give to prove otherwise are weak. Many of these verses are analogies, taken out of context, or were originally given by the author, as examples to make the people understand. The Most Holy God has revealed to us, as much as we can understand, that He is a Triune God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All scripture proves this, even the Apostles understood this ( Acts 1:2, 1:16, 5:3-4, etc.) The book of Acts is called the Gospel of the Holy Spirit" for it is filled with not only evidence of Jesus deity but with actions of the Holy Spirit that only the One True God can do. To say and try to prove otherwise is tantamount to blasphemy.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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