Jehovah's Witnesses

[Vasian]

What is a simple person to do when desiring to become a Christian and serve The Lord?
They do not know even what you are talking about let alone what importance it may hold for them. (if any)

They know they love The Lord and want only to please Him.

Where should they go? To the Bible Students? The Watchtower Society? The Catholic Church?

Will they not be Christian if they believe “a” God, or if they believe “is” God?

“Choose wisely” or die and everlasting death?

 

[reslight]

Thanks for your answer. I understand your position, but I do not accept it. You are playing with semantics and reading into scripture what is not there. According to the “Bible Students” what traditional Christiani theologians and scholars have known, understood,
believed, and taught for the 1800 years before Charles T. Russel “discovered” the truth ( without any training or understanding of Biblical languages ) is in actuality total error.

Being endoctrinated by human tradition often blinds one to the truth. Of course, the truth has been in the Bible all the time, but when people read the scriptures through a tint, they will not see the truth. Russell did not “discover” the truth Jesus and his truth, except that one might consider such as a personal discovery. Isaac Newton wrote of this truth long before Russell lived; so did many other authors. Russell’s personal “discovery” came as result of his deep study of the Word of God as assisted by others who knew the truth concerning the trinity.

This is hard to believe and accept. Arianism ( as is presently taught by the “Bible Students”, and JWs, etc. ) has been refuted and proven to be in error, heresy, and a false belief in itself.

So far no one has presented any scriptural refutation at all; what is usually presented is the trinitarian assumptions that have been imagined of the human spirit, and it is actually the assumptions that have to be added to and read into the scriptures that are alleged to “refute” the Hebraic view of God and Jesus.

As I have mentioned the Bible ( scriptures ) abounds with proof of the existence of the Holy Trinity and of the deity of the Word ( Jesus ). Read the scriptures, without prejudice, and see and learn for yourself.

If the Bible (scriptures) abounds with proof of a triune God, one would find the mention of such an idea in the Bible; so far no one has given one scripture that mentions the only true God as existing more than one person. In fact, there is absolutely no proof at all of the existence of the alleged trinue God in the Bible. I would say, take off the blinding spectacles that place the trinitarian tint upon the scriptures, and prayerfully study the scriptures without that prejudice, and, God willing, you too, can discover this truth.

 

[Bill_Pick]

It is clear that if Christ were ever to ask a JW “But who do you say I am” the only truthful answere they could give would be " We really do not know" and that sir is a fact

 

[Vasian]

So… All those good souls that were of religions that adhered to the trinity doctrine…
Are they in the second grave? Are they dead forever? In Hell?

All those good souls that were not in a trinitarian religion…
In God’s grace for eternity? One of God’s favorites?

Who are, and who are not Christians?

God “is” Love.

 

[Bill_Pick]

What did Thomas say to Jesus , Thomas said My Lord and my God,JN 20"28

Jn if you know me you know my father jn. 8-19 1Jn1-17
And Please read John 1-1 the word was God

If you are reading a Christians Bible you will leard about the Trridy

and read Jn

8-19 If you need more help please let me know

 

[reslight]

Paul S. L… Johnson, in his book entitled “God”

I’m sorry, this should have read

his book entitled “Creation”

 

[Bill_Pick]

So… All those good souls that were of religions that adhered to the trinity doctrine…
Are they in the second grave? Are they dead forever? In Hell?

All those good souls that were not in a trinitarian religion…
In God’s grace for eternity? One of God’s favorites?

Who are, and who are not Christians?

God “is” Love.

You are still a littler confused who said you must believe in the trinity to be saved, God is NOT the God of the dead but the God of the living MK 12; 26-27

 

[reslight]

What is a simple person to do when desiring to become a Christian and serve The Lord?
They do not know even what you are talking about let alone what importance it may hold for them. (if any)

The truth of this matter is not complicated, nor hard to understand. The only true God sent his son Jesus Christ, as the savior of the world. Paul gave the summation when he said: “if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9) That is simple. The complication comes because of what has been added to this by human tradition that would in some way diminish or negate the simple truth, resulting in a need to untwist the traditions of men.

 

[reslight]

They know they love The Lord and want only to please Him.

Jesus told of many kinds of Christians, most of whom are not truly consecrated at all. (Matthew 7:21-29; 13:1-23; Luke 12:42-48) Those who truly wish to please the Lord Jesus are consecrated, but even most of these will remain as “babes in Christ” all their life, and will never be able to digest the more meaty spiritual food. – 1 Corinthians 3:1.

Where should they go? To the Bible Students? The Watchtower Society? The Catholic Church?

I believe Peter answered this question, when he stated to Jesus: “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life.” (John 6:68) And Jesus states: “No one comes to the Father, but by [through] me.” (John 14:6) Since there has been discussion of Russell in this regard, I will give a brief quote from him:

In our day, the natural tendency in this direction is greatly accentuated by the long established custom of all denominations of Christians to regard the ministers or servants of the Church as of a different class from the others of the flock,–a class vested with authority from God, and not amenable to the same regulations which govern all the members of the body. But how great a mistake this is! The Apostle distinctly points out that a servant is not a ruler, that a servant has no authority. Indeed, so far as the true Church is concerned, the only authority in it is the Lord, the Head of the Church, and his Word, and the words of those whom he specially chose to be his mouth-pieces, the apostles. – The Watch Tower, July 1, 1900, page 195.

 

[reslight]

Will they not be Christian if they believe “a” God, or if they believe “is” God?

I am not with the JWs, and I believe that the more correct way of conveying THEOS in English when related to others than Yahweh, would be to use “mighty” or something similar. Rather than saying “a god”, which to most English readers could be misleading, I would say “mighty” or “a mighty one.” This is why I, and many other Bible Students, would recommend the rendering of John 1:1c as “the Word was mighty.” Not that it would be wrong to render it as “a god,” but since most who read such a rendering do not know of the Hebraic background of such usage, it would be clearer to render it as “mighty.”

Regarding whether one will not be found a Christian if they believe this or that concerning John 1:1 is not up to me. I believe that there are thousands, perhaps millions, of truly consecrated Christians who believe in the trinity, who have not yet been enlightened by the truth on this topic, and I don’t believe most will be enlightened until after Satan has been abyssed. It will be then that sectarianism will no longer exist, and all Christians will be freed from its blinding influence.

 

[Javl]

Being endoctrinated by human tradition often blinds one to the truth. Of course, the truth has been in the Bible all the time, but when people read the scriptures through a tint, they will not see the truth. Russell did not “discover” the truth Jesus and his truth, except that one might consider such as a personal discovery. Isaac Newton wrote of this truth long before Russell lived; so did many other authors. Russell’s personal “discovery” came as result of his deep study of the Word of God as assisted by others who knew the truth concerning the trinity.

So then, the early Church Fathers, down through the ages to today’s Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant, theologians and scholars have been indoctrinated by human tradition and are blind to the truths in scripture. None of these, then, really studied the Word of God as deeply as Russel and Johnson. This is a statement that is extremely difficult to believe and accept. As for Newton and others, their statements and beliefs have been refuted, scripturally. It seems that every generation comes up with one person who has been" given the irrefutible word of God" and that he/she alone has been chosen to dispense this “word”.

So far no one has presented any scriptural refutation at all; what is usually presented is the trinitarian assumptions that have been imagined of the human spirit, and it is actually the assumptions that have to be added to and read into the scriptures that are alleged to “refute” the Hebraic view of God and Jesus.

Have you read the works of Athenasius, Alexander, Augustine, Aquinas, etc.? All scriptural evidence refuting Arianism ( what you are espousing ) has been given and presented. Read also the results of the Council of Nicea which proved the error and heresy of Arianism.

If the Bible (scriptures) abounds with proof of a triune God, one would find the mention of such an idea in the Bible; so far no one has given one scripture that mentions the only true God as existing more than one person. In fact, there is absolutely no proof at all of the existence of the alleged trinue God in the Bible. I would say, take off the blinding spectacles that place the trinitarian tint upon the scriptures, and prayerfully study the scriptures without that prejudice, and, God willing, you too, can discover this truth.

The Bible does abound with proof of a triune God. It shouts out that Jesus is God the Son and with the Holy Spirit is equal in Glory, Majesty, and Power with the Father. It is you that is predjudiced and brain-washed to reject the idea of a triune God. I have examined and studied both sides of the coin and find the reverse terribly wanting. I pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes so that you can really see the whole of God’s truth.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[reslight]

“Choose wisely” or die and everlasting death?

No, if one chooses to believe in the trinity, I know of nothing in the scriptures that would warrant the thought they would be condemned to “everlasting death,” if by this one means the second death. The death in Adam would have been everlasting had it not been for the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. – 1 Corinthians 15:21,22.

Jesus spoke symbolically of disciplines that will be necessary related to many of his servants, but as revealed in Hebrews 6 and 10, only those who “sin willfully after coming to an accurate knowledge of the truth” would receive the judgment of the second death, since there is no more sacrifice for sin. (Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-29)

In describing his servants, however, as related in Luke 12:42-48, although Jesus mentions describes disciplines, he never directly condemns any to be cast into the second death, represented by the symbolic lake of fire. As far as I can tell, as a whole, all of the four classes mentioned in Jesus’ parable (with the exception of any who have, with knowledge, sinned willfully, as spoken of in Hebrews 10), having been justified and having become a new creation, are raised in the resurrection of life. As far as the tares (Matthew 13:1-23), these are false Christians who have never actually become a new creation, who are symbolically burned up (as false Christians – symbolized by tares, not as persons), but they, as persons, remain under the wrath of God as brought upon mankind through Adam (Romans 5:12-19), and will be raised in the resurrection of judgment in the last day. – John 5:28,29; 12:47,48.

 

[reslight]

It is clear that if Christ were ever to ask a JW “But who do you say I am” the only truthful answere they could give would be " We really do not know" and that sir is a fact

I am not with the JWs, but I can say that I have no reason that they would not agree with Peter’s answer, when Peter answered the question, saying: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:16) Peter did not identify the Living God as three persons, but as one person, and he identified Jesus, not as the Living God, but as the son of the Living God.

 

[Vasian]

Dear Reslight,

“The Great Apostasy…”

You have shared with the forum that you are a “Bible Student”. As such, what is your church’s belief (*(or that of your own if it differs from those you congregate with)*as to whom is “The Great Apostasy”?

1. Is it anyone church of Christendom?
2. Is it a certain number (group) of religions within Christendom?
3. Is it all of Christendom?
4. Or?

No trick question here, my friend. As one who was Catholic, Jehovah’s Witness (elder), and now attending Russian Orthodox, I am genuinely interested in your answer, be it your own speculation, your solid belief, or that of your particular brand of Christianity, i.e. your church’s belief.

Thank you

 

[reslight]

So… All those good souls that were of religions that adhered to the trinity doctrine…
Are they in the second grave?

If the question is are they all in the second death, the answer is no.

Are they dead forever?

Definitely not.

In Hell?

All in the Bible hell have redeemed through the sacrifice of Jesus.

All those good souls that were not in a trinitarian religion…
In God’s grace for eternity? One of God’s favorites?

Only those who have attained the perfection of goal of the prize (Philippians 3:13,14) have put on incorruption, proven themselves incorruptible (1 Corinthians 15:54); the rest may be harmed by the second death until they have perfected their faith (1 Thessalonians 3:10), thereby proving that they have put on incorruption, so that they no longer may be harmed by the second death. (Revelation 2:11; 20:6) This has nothing to do with whether a person believed or disbelieved the trinity, except that the trinity doctrine may have hindered the developing of perfection of faith.

Who are, and who are not Christians?

Having already discussed this, but I will add to make this clear: any who truly believe in Jesus as their savior and lord is a Christian, but this has nothing to do with affliation with a denomination, a sectarian church, a sectarian religious organization, or a movement, but with the heart of the individual Christian. Thus, one can be a Christian while affilated with the Roman Catholics, the Anglicans, the Baptists, the Methodists, etc. On the other hand, this does mean that being affiliated with any of these means that one is a Christian at heart, for Jesus spoke of many who would come in his name whom he did not recognize.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Dear Reslight,

“The Great Apostasy…”

You have shared with the forum that you are a “Bible Student”. As such, what is your church’s belief (*(or that of your own if it differs from those you congregate with)*as to whom is “The Great Apostasy”?

1. Is it anyone church of Christendom?
2. Is it a certain number (group) of religions within Christendom?
3. Is it all of Christendom?
4. Or?

No trick question here, my friend. As one who was Catholic, Jehovah’s Witness (elder), and now attending Russian Orthodox, I am genuinely interested in your answer, be it your own speculation, your solid belief, or that of your particular brand of Christianity, i.e. your church’s belief.

Thank you

I also love to heard your answer to these questions,and what is the name of the Bible you are using for you"r bible student"

 

[reslight]

What did Thomas say to Jesus , Thomas said My Lord and my God,JN 20"28

There is nothing about three persons in one God in John 20:28.

I wrote on this in post # 250. I have written a detailed study on this at:

godandson.reslight.net/archives/339.html

Jn if you know me you know my father jn. 8-19 1Jn1-17

John 8:19 reads (Douay-Rheims): They said therefore to him: Where is thy Father? Jesus answered: Neither me do you know, nor my Father. If you did know me, perhaps you would know my Father also.

Definitely nothing there about a trinity, but Jesus does explain that, as John stated, that he had come to reveal his God and Father to them. Jesus certainly came declare his God and Father, thus to know Jesus is also to know the only true God who had sent him.

There are only ten verses in 1 John 1, so I am unsure as to what 1 John 1:17 might be.

However, John 14:7seems to be alluded to:

If you had known me, you would without doubt have known my Father also: and from henceforth you shall know him. And you have seen him. – Douay-Rheims.

Again, there is definitely nothing in this about three persons in one God. Indeed, while I have often seen trinitarians quote or refer to this verse as alleged proof of the trinity, I have never seen any genuine explanation as to how this is thought to support the trinity. I can see how a oneness believer might misuse this to support the idea that Jesus is the Father, but I see nothing at all in Jesus’ words that could apply to the trinitarian doctrine. The same goes for John 8:19.

John stated: “No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the Bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.” (John 1:18, Douay-Rheims; see post 283) It should be self-evident that when John wrote “No man hath seen God,” John was speaking of one person, not three persons. Thus, when Jesus said “And you have seen,” Jesus was not saying that they could literally see the only true God standing there before them, but it is obvious that he was speaking of seeing with eyes of understanding. And Jesus himself explained what he meant, when he said: “The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works.” (John 14:10, Douay-Rheims) It is by means of the works of the Father that Jesus performed that one could “see” the father, and this agrees with what John said, that Jesus had declared God, since no man has seen God. – John 1:18.

 

[reslight]

Will please tell me where to g ot this info ,Ches Taze Russell was never associated with the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization,

From the works of Russell, and history of the Bible Students as revealed by many writings after the time that Russell died, as well as from Rutherford’s writings, although Rutherford sought to proclaim his organization retroactively back to the days of Russell. Morton Edgar, a prominent writer amongst the Bible Students even in the days of Russell, wrote around 1928, 1929, in response to Rutherford’s new “organization” doctrine, an example of similar statements being made by Bible Students all over the world in reaction to Rutherford’s new organization:

The word “organisation” does not occur in the Bible, and its use is apt to mislead. The Scriptural word is “kingdom”; and our Lord distinctly said that “the kingdom of God cometh not with observation”—with outward show—Luke 17:20. Therefore there is no “visible organisation of God on earth,” as is claimed by some to their undoing.

How often Brother Russell warned us against this very thing, and how foolish we shall be if we do not heed his warning. We shall indeed be foolish if we claim that “only through our system or organisation will the heavenly Father accept praise and service”; for this would make it appear necessary for every spirit-begotten child of God to “bow the knee” to the few who have constituted themselves heads of the organisation. The apostle shows that it is only the carnal, fleshly mind that is deceived by such unscriptural claims—1 Cor. 3:1-6, 18-23…

I for one entirely repudiate this talk of “God’s visible organization on earth” during this Gospel Age. It is dangerous talk, and gives rise to all kinds of persecutions and ungodly claims, as anyone who has consecrated reasoning powers can see… If there was one thing that our dear Brother Russell warned us against, more strongly than any other, it was this very thing. Brother Russell never made any such claim for the “Society” when he was here in the flesh and amongst us, for he knew better. But Judge Rutherford, apparently, does not know enough to keep himself clear of it. In the very first chapter of the first volume of “Studies,” Brother Russell speaks of this “false idea that the nominal church, in its present condition, is the sole agency” for the recovery of the world from sin. – Published in “Gleanings From Glasgow”

 

[reslight]

I remember reading once about “Pastor” Russel where he was being sued. In court in the witness chair, “Pastor” Russel claimed that he could read and understand Greek.

Russell was not being sued, but rather, Russell had filed criminal charges against Ross for libel. Russell never claimed that he could read and understand Greek.

Under intense questioning by the prosecuting attorney, he finally admitted to not even recognizing all the letters of the Greek alphabet.

The questioning of Russell being referred to, which lasted many hours, was not by the prosecuting attorney, but by Ross’ defense attorney:

Here is the record of the questions of Ross’s lawyer, George Lynch-Staunton, and Russell’s replies:

Question: "You don't profess, then, to be schooled in the Latin language?"

Answer: "No, Sir."

Question: "Or in Greek?"

Answer: "No, Sir."

It was after that Lynch-Staunton asked Russell if he knew the Greek alphabet. Here is the testimony of that record from the court transcript:

Question: "Do you know the Greek alphabet?"

Answer: "Oh, Yes."

Question: "Can you tell me the correct letters if you see them?"

Answer: "Some of them, I might make a mistake on some of them."

Question: "Would you tell me the names of the letters of those on the top of the page, page 447 I have got here [from Westcott and Hort]?"

Answer: "Well, I don't know that I would be able to."

Question: "You can't tell what those letters are, look at them and see if you know."

Answer: "My way ..." [At this point he was interrupted by the court and not allowed to explain.]

It was after this that Russell was asked:

“Are you familiar with the Greek language?”

Russell’s reply was an emphatic “No!”

Please note that Russell was asked several different questions, the first one being if he had been schooled in either the Greek or Latin languages, to which he stated that he had not been. He was then asked if he knew the Greek alphabet. This question, without a given qualification, could be interpreted in different ways. One might be able to repeat the Greek alphabet without being able to recognize the alphabet in print. In Russell’s mind, however, he seemed to interpret this question as to mean, do you know the Greek alphabet so as to make use of the Greek alphabet? In the next question, he was asked if he could tell the Greek letters if he saw them, and Russell truthfully answered, “Some of them,” and truthfully admitted that he might make a mistake on some of them. Most people could know some of them. Many without a high school education, for instance, might recognize the letter alpha as well as beta. However, then another question was asked, and some specific letters are pointed to in the Westcott & Hort text. What those letters were is not revealed, but evidently they were letters deliberately selected that were not so commonly known. The whole approach, however, is a lawyer’s method of trying paint a picture in the worst light possible. Nevertheless, it should be evident that Russell never claimed to know Greek, as Ross made it appear to be.

 

[reslight]

we can determine that Jesus was speaking to his Son

My error above. This should have read: we can determine that Yahweh was speaking to his Son