Jehovah's Witnesses

[Rolltide]

Here is part 4, still discussing the history of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

1. Knorr was succeeded as head of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, by Frederick Franz. He had been the Witnesses’ leading theologian, and his services were often called upon. During the 1960s and early 1970s, various references appeared in Witnesses’ literature and assemblies, implying that Christ’s thousand-year millennial reign might begin by 1975. The chronology pointing to 1975 was noted in the secular media at the time. When it didn’t, Franz had to find an explanation.

Witnesses believe that Adam was created in 4026 B.C. and that human beings have been allotted 6000 years of existence until Armageddon and the beginning of the millennium. This figure is based on a “creative week” in which each of six days is equal to 1,000 years, with the Sabbath or seventh day being the beginning of the millennium. Simple arithmetic gives 1975 as the year Armageddon would arrive. Franz explained that Armageddon would actually come 6000 years after Eve’s creation. But when 1975 came and went, the Witnesses had to “adjust” their chronology to cover up a failed prediction. They accomplished this by maintaining that no one knew exactly how long after Adam’s creation Eve came on the scene. Franz said that it was months—even years. Hence he was able to “stretch” the 1975 date to some indeterminate time in the future. In any case, Franz said that Witnesses would just have to wait, knowing the end is right around the corner.

From 1975 to 1980, there was a drop in membership following the failure of this prediction to materialize. In 1980, the Watchtower Society admitted its responsibility in building up hope regarding the year 1975.
**
HOW many times is this now that the organization failed to predict the Second Coming? This time, even the secular media picked up the story. In this case, the Watchtower Society even admitted some responsibility that it was at fault, and that their over-enthusiasm over certain writings about 1975 were misleading. Again, membership drops. Note that Franz is resorting to having to “recalculate” the date yet again, just as was done in 1874 and 1914.**

1. The leadership of Jehovah’s Witnesses was reorganized in 1976 and the power of the presidency passed on to the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Subsequent presidents of the Watch Tower Society after Knorr’s death in 1977 have been Frederick William Franz, Milton George Henschel (1993) and Don A. Adams. However, since 1976, doctrinal and organizational decisions have been made by the Governing Body. In 1995 the Watchtower quietly changed one of its major prophetic doctrines. Until this point, they had maintained that the generation alive in 1914 would not pass from the scene until Armageddon occurred. Now that this generation has almost entirely died out—and Armageddon has not occurred and does not seem like it will happen immediately—they had to change their doctrine. Now, the Watchtower says that Armageddon will simply occur “soon,” and it is no longer tied to a particular, literal generation of people.

**And so as recently as 15 years ago… yet another change in doctrine! It seems very suspicious that one of the core doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses has been rewritten again, again, and again. Certainly, this is not the only argument against the organization, but it’s the 800 pound elephant in the room. (In other words, it’s such a glaring error, it can’t be ignored.) **

1. As of August 2005, Jehovah’s Witnesses have a membership of more than 6.6 million actively involved in preaching. Jehovah’s Witnesses have an active presence in most countries. In no country are they a large part of the population, however. Brazil and Mexico are the only countries other than the U.S. where the number of active Witness publishers exceeds half a million.
   **
   If the Jehovah’s Witnesses are indeed the correct faith, why are so few people across the world in the organization? How are so many fundamental errors explained? Why is it primarily an American phenomenon? Why have SO many people left the group at SO many points during the past?**

This concludes the historical outline of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Part 5 will be a brief analysis.

 

[Rolltide]

Part 5 - Analysis

Ok, what you’ve just read above is a very long combination of the Catholic Answers article and the Wikipedia article. I encourage you to read it over very closely. Think about the various points. Do you own research. Look up Beth Sarim. Also, when the Watchtower reprints its newsletters and publications, it has been known to go back and change what was said to cover up its poor history of prophecy. This is documented extensively and I can find you the references if you like. In light of all of this evidence, is it at least possible that the Watchtower could have altered the New World Translation to suit it’s needs?

There is a lot of information above, so let me summarize what conclusions I believe it leads to. Let me make it clear that this is no one’s opinion but my own.

**Charles Taze Russell is a good, but uneducated young man. At 17, he has a crisis of faith after getting in over his head in an argument with an athiest. He falls prey (or actively engages in) a variety of dubious schemes, and finally is drawn toward Adventism. He becomes unhappy. He wants to be a good person in a world that isn’t very good, so he’s drawn toward an organization that believes that this world will pass in the very near future. It would end all of his current problems on Earth and allow him eternal happiness. It fails to occur, but he continues to believe that this world will be over soon. This, above all, influences his beliefs. It’s a psychological and spiritual need, rather than any complex Biblical view.

Russell finds his calling in religion and begins to write. He borrows many ideas from the Adventists, rather than creating them himself. He breaks with Barbour, and makes his own predictions, which fail to materialize. Russell dies having created a belief system that helps to sooth his own troubled spirituality.

Joseph Franklin Rutherford seizes control of the organization in what amounts to a hostile takeover. He throws out many of Russell’s beliefs, and makes three more incorrect prophecies, including the one involving Beth Sarim. Three-fourths of the organization simply leaves the group. To stop these huge losses, new president Nathan Homer Korr institutes door-to-door evangelization.

The doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is now so far from what the Bible says, that Korr authorizes the New World Translation to force the book to support their views. (Please note that when the NWT came out, almost every single review was highly critical of the translation, pointing out that it was, at best, a transliteration, not a translation. This is where you create a very inaccurate translation that gives the rough idea of what the original says. It often has the effect of making it easier to read, too. That, of course, would be very helpful for someone not very experienced in reading the Bible.) Only one person could even translate Greek, and even he had insufficient background to have the necessary skills for the job.

By 1975, you have yet another failed prophecy that results in more people leading the organization. Even as late as last year, there are only 6.6 million followers of the group. Despite ALL their evangelization, they are rarely successful outside of the United States. Their biggest target group is former Catholics, since most Catholics grow up learning from the Catechism rather than from the Bible. They are not nearly as familiar with Bible study, and so don’t have the necessary skills to point out the many flaws in the doctrine of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.**

So anyway… there’s some things to think about.

 

[lost_wanderer_1]

Well, the full name of the WT includes: “Announcing Jehovah’s Kingdom”. And is one of the main tools we use in teaching the Bible. The Feb 2010 issue is printed in 180 languages and 39.6 million copies were printed. Over 7 million unpaid volunteers are involved in this preaching work. Surely the largest educational campaign in history.

Would Jehovah allow a false religion to bear his name and do the preaching work his son commissioned?
Indeed, how could such a work be done without God’s “stamp of approval?”

You guys sure are wasting a lot of paper and effort. Don’t you know that most of JW print materials just end up in the trash without even being read? I myself have received some of those print materials some even on expensive glossy paper. It may be the largest educational campaign in history but surely its bound to fail since what you guys are teaching is your own corrupted version of the bible.

 

[Regardless]

St. Jerome translated the Bible into Latin and finished in 405 AD…
All did so when the Church was one.

I do not know of anybody who was killed in any way for translating a Bible. …

… If the Catholic Church wanted to keep God’s Word from the people, they were going about it the wrong way by sharing it with people and teaching it to people, even for the uneducated people.

Thanks collegue.
I read of Jerome and his translations once. He sounded an excellent, sincere fellow!

There were several killed for translating the Bible though, alas. I read a book on William Tyndale once. Here is a scrap from Wikipedia on him:

*"…translated considerable parts of the Bible into the Early Modern English of his day. …Tyndale’s was the first English translation to draw directly from Hebrew and Greek texts, … In 1535, Tyndale was arrested, jailed in the castle of Vilvoorde outside Brussels for over a year, tried for heresy and burned at the stake. He was strangled before his body was burnt.
Much of Tyndale’s work eventually found its way into the King James Version (or “Authorised Version”) of the Bible, published in 1611, ." *- Wikipedia

I remember he was disturbed, that during the first few years of his priestly training they never looked into the Bible - but were focused on Aristotle and Plato. He couldn’t understand why they were studying the teachings of non-Christians instead of God’s word.
Also, back then the only Bibles available were in Latin, which even many of the priests couldn’t read. He wanted the common people to be able to benefit from the Bible.

Some in the church didn’t agree.

 

[Regardless]

The translators that were hunted down and killed were translating the Bible with there own theology, much like the WT, and were spouting heresy. That is why they got themselves in trouble.

Why is God spoken of as Almighty God and Mighty God.(Isa. 10.21) It seems to me that the two adjectives are used for Jesus and God which would tell me that Jesus and God are of the same essence.

Jeanne

PS If not for the Catholics preserving the sacred writings the WT and others would not have the Bible to translate into their own theology.
People seem to forget that it is because of the Catholics we have a Bible at all.

I am pleased we have the Bible.
Through an amazing history, we have it available to all now. The most remarkable book in history.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Regardless]

Please pardon me, but I could not reply untill I finished LAUGHING.
2000 years late…JW’s are 2000 years late in there preaching campaign.

Did I forget to menchon that there are only around 7 million diciples of the watchtower organization.
The Church ALREADY had done the largest preaching work in history, that’s how Christianity
Got here…Otherwise Charlze Taze Russel your founder would not have been a protestant
To begin with…let alone inventing his own church.

This is clasic brain washing, when your mind is made to go against all logic and common sence, in order to remain in a state of ignorance.

What happened collegue? You were busy in the preaching work once. Working hard at bethel, you loved Jehovah and the truth. You could prove the truth from the Bible to anyone no doubt. What tripped you up?
Have you found the real truth now? How do you know?

 

[Regardless]

are you also happy that thousands have invented their own religions because of the bible?

I’d prefer magistrate over scripture-- “our faith, we should entrust to faithful teachers” for the church (members and leaders and institution alike) is the pillar and foundation of truth which has the power to BIND and LOOSE!

Magistrate over scripture? Magistrate = “Civil officer administrating law”

The pharisees and scribes of Jesus day were the administrators of the law, but had strayed far from the truth.
Check out Acts 17:11: “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”

We should make sure what our magistrates tell us is what the scriptures say and is the truth.

 

[Regardless]

Regardless;6209778:

…
I think what you need to understand is what the CC teaches about the Trinity, and not what you think

they teach.

In addition, I think it’s inappropriate to come to another denominations website as a guest and attack them about some of their history … This isn’t keeping with Christ’s instructions about “He who is without sin…”.
.

Apologies for pointing at a straw in anothers eye when I have a rafter in mine!

What does the CC teach about the Trinity. can it be explained in a paragraph or two? And does it fit with the Bible?
The Athanasian Creed states:

“…And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. …”

Is that what they still teach? Correct?

 

[Rolltide]

What happened collegue? You were busy in the preaching work once. Working hard at bethel, you loved Jehovah and the truth. You could prove the truth from the Bible to anyone no doubt. What tripped you up?
Have you found the real truth now? How do you know?

I’ll let Excaliber tell his own story, but he worked at Bethel itself and was not treated well.

 

[Regardless]

Part 5 - Analysis
…So anyway… there’s some things to think about.

Wow. This crazy bunch of nutters should have disappeared in the 1920’s!
How on earth did they grow to over 7 million today? And to think, if someone arrives at your door wanting to teach the Bible and talk about God’s Kingdom, it is 95% likely to be this crowd!
What’s going on here?

 

[Regardless]

Good Catholic people.

I seem to prompt some enthusiastic replies to my comments.
I am away for a few days. If anyone replies to any of my replies, - I am not being rude and ignoring you, I am just not near a computer.

All the best in your studies of the Bible,

Regardless.

 

[Fidei]

Good Catholic people.

I seem to prompt some enthusiastic replies to my comments.
I am away for a few days. If anyone replies to any of my replies, - I am not being rude and ignoring you, I am just not near a computer.

All the best in your studies of the Bible,

Regardless.

not a problem at all!

but your’e sure gonna have to face a serious headache when you return to a PC reading all your replies throughout your lost days

 

[yellowbird]

The WT is not inspired by God, nor was Russel a prophet.
The Bible is God’s word. ***Jesus said: “Your word is truth.” ***(John 17:17) The Bible is the foundation.

:

I’m very interested in this post. Do you no longer believe that Russel was the faithful & discreet slave whom God apppointed over all things? Or that Jehovah continues to direct the annointed today? Do you no longer believe that the Watchtower is Jehovah’s mouthpiece?

Are you free to disagree with what’s written in the Watchtower publications? Since you’re free to disagree with what was written 100 years ago… how do you know 100 years from now the new batch of JWs won’t discount what you’re reading?

Why follow a religion that denounces what was written a mere 100 years ago? As Catholics we quote what was written by fellow Church members 1,000 years ago… our faith stands the test of time. You can’t say the same, can you?

 

[Fidei]

There were several killed for translating the Bible though, alas. I read a book on William Tyndale once…

…Some in the church didn’t agree.

The church does not try anyone without a proper case.

Tyndale, if you read in his biography, (still wiki)

he studied theology but it did not include the study of scripture… After hearing of this, outraged, he set off to England determined to translate the bible into English with the help of bishop Cuthbert but merely didnt regard his scholarly credentials highly.

The Church at the time didn’t think that an English translation would be helpful… Tyndale continued on making translations despite warnings from the church. but he still persisted after more years of hiding…

It is in our opinion that Tyndale caused his own demise. he surely lacked scriptural and biblical know-how for the church to entrust such a prestigious task.

The church had in mind, distributing the bible—these “reformers” just added a little spark to the event. Johanne Gutenberg, the famous printing press inventor, a catholic, was personally requested by the Church to print out the bible hence the bible being the first printed book through movable type.

even Catholics made the reading of the bible easier with a catholic bishop dividing the books into chapters and a french printer broke them down into verses.

the bible before was regarded as a holy material not to be trifled with, very much like the rare quran or torah of today’s abrahamic faiths, not used as a basic household item.

 

[T_More]

T More;6210335:

Apologies for pointing at a straw in anothers eye when I have a rafter in mine!

What does the CC teach about the Trinity. can it be explained in a paragraph or two? And does it fit with the Bible?
The Athanasian Creed states:

“…And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. …”

Is that what they still teach? Correct?

Regardless, I’ll be happy to answer, but first address the first part of my post above that you left out. Once again, how is it possible to address Jesus as “a god”/Mighty God when the NWT Bible (or any bible for that matter) says in Isaiah 44 what it says? If you need me to, I’ll be more than happy to copy and paste from the NWT what it says there in case you forgot. Thanks.

 

[yellowbird]

Regardless;6221292:

Regardless, I’ll be happy to answer, but first address the first part of my post above that you left out. Once again, how is it possible to address Jesus as “a god”/Mighty God when the NWT Bible (or any bible for that matter) says in Isaiah 44 what it says? If you need me to, I’ll be more than happy to copy and paste from the NWT what it says there in case you forgot. Thanks.

This is what never fails to boggle my mind. The Bible CLEARLY states there is ONE true God. If Jehvoah alone is the one true God then all others “gods” are false. Do Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus is a false god?

 

[Rolltide]

Wow. This crazy bunch of nutters should have disappeared in the 1920’s!
How on earth did they grow to over 7 million today? And to think, if someone arrives at your door wanting to teach the Bible and talk about God’s Kingdom, it is 95% likely to be this crowd!
What’s going on here?

Well, it’s not true that if someone comes to my door, it’s 95% likely to be a JW (Maybe 50% likely…). The Mormons go door-to-door just as much as Jehovah’s Witnesses, and teach the Bible and talk about God’s Kingdom, and they have almost double the members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, with 13.5 million. I’ve had two visits from them in the last year, and just one from the JW’s. In fact, they’re one of the most rapidly growing denominations in the US. So, how on earth did they grow to be DOUBLE the size of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, using the same techniques?

So, what’s going on there?

 

[yellowbird]

Well, it’s not true that if someone comes to my door, it’s 95% likely to be a JW (Maybe 50% likely…). The Mormons go door-to-door just as much as Jehovah’s Witnesses, and teach the Bible and talk about God’s Kingdom, and they have almost double the members of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, with 13.5 million. I’ve had two visits from them in the last year, and just one from the JW’s. In fact, they’re one of the most rapidly growing denominations in the US. So, how on earth did they grow to be DOUBLE the size of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, using the same techniques?

So, what’s going on there?

Good point. In my neighborhood it is MUCH more likely to be a Mormon. I do not work outside the home and in over a decade of living in the same house, I’ve only answered the door to a JW maybe three times… and even though I’ve tried to engage them in conversation, they always say they’ll have to get back to me (usually when I confront them with all the unfufilled prophecy) and they’ve NEVER once came back. Not one time. So I wouldn’t toot your horn too loudy about your preaching work… it’s been my experience that they are working to satisfy their monthly quota rather than lead others to “the truth.”

 

[zach_dunn]

Mighty God. - But not Almighty. Why is that?

What are you talking about? You think that the Bible does not call God mighty? Here are some quotes from the OT — and the NWT — that call God mighty:

Isaiah 9:6
For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor,** Mighty God**, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 10:21
A mere remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.

Job 36:5
Look! God is mighty and will not reject; [He is] mighty in power of heart.

In other translations, these verses could be easily multiplied, but where other translations have “mighty,” the NWT tends to translate as “fear-inspiring,” “Divine One,” or “Powerful One.”

The point cannot be missed, though. Jehovah is called Mighty God, Christ is called Mighty God, there is only one God [Is 44:6]. Therefore, both are God but separate persons. This prophecy is just one of MANY “proof-texts” for Christs Divinity, others can include:

Matthew 3:3
This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: “Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people! Make his roads straight.’”

Mark 1:2-3
Just as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “(Look! I am sending forth my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way listen! someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people, make his roads straight.’”

Luke 3:4
[J]ust as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet: “Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people, make his roads straight.’”

Isaiah 40:3
Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: “Clear up the way of Jehovah, YOU people! MAKE the highway for our God through the desert plain straight.”

This entire prophecy is referring to Christ. It is somewhat funny because where other translations put “Lord”, the NWT puts “Jehovah”. This is clear evidence, more clear than any other translation, that Christ is Jehovah. These examples could be multiplied as well, but I think I’ve demonstrated my point.

One last point I’d like to make, how do JWs justify saying Christ is Michael the archangel in light of a passage such as the following?

Hebrews 1:5-8
For example, to which one of the angels did he ever say: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father”? And again: “I myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son”?[sup]1[/sup] But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.” Also, with reference to the angels he says: “And he makes his angels spirits, and his public servants a flame of fire.” But with reference to the Son:[sup]2[/sup] “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.”

[sup]1[/sup] This is not a literal question, obviously, it is rhetorical. What does it mean? It means that Christ is more than a mere angel, He is God’s very own Son.
[sup]2[/sup] This makes the difference clear, Christ is not an angel. The writer of Hebrews says, with reference to the angels . . . but with reference to the Son. This very important “but” makes an undeniable distinction between Christ and the angels, how do you justify saying Christ is an angel?

 

[zach_dunn]

Cool text on John 1. Tricky.

There is really nothing tricky about it, I gave you the exact Greek words from the Textus Receptus — which is the basis for the KJV — from this source.

I must look it up. Possibly something to do with grammer?

It does have lots to do with grammar, but the problem really lies in the inconsistencies the WBTS used whilst translating John chapter 1.

Will google BeDuhn on that one.

Why do you like BeDuhn so much? Is it because he praised the NWT? While he does praise the NWT, there are other scholars who disprove of the NWT, why do you disregard them? I think we should figure out the collective view on the NWT and not narrow it down to one man.

But I will not dismiss your arguement just because you disagree with what I believe, like some seem to do with me.

Have I done this? If I have please show me, if anyone else has, show that too because I try to never leave an argument unanswered!

At least we are starting to realise there are differnet words for god in greek. Thanks.

I have not stated this anywhere in any of my posts. There is one word for God in Greek, that is theos, this word — like any other word in every language — can take different forms. That does not mean it is a different word; I’m not sure how you understood me in this manner.