Jehovah's Witnesses

[Regardless]

From what I’ve read, he only praised their handling of the OT - he was critical of their NT where they inserted the word “Jehovah” in error.

The book I read was “truth in translation” and only dealt with the New Testament. Perhaps there is another on on th OT. I borrowed this copy off a friend.

He did disagree with the NWT putting Jehovah in the NT. All the writers of the NT quoted scriptures from the OT where the divine name appeared. The NWT puts Jehovah wherever this occurs.
Beduhn didn’t agree with this. I understand his argument.

This critisisim proved to me he wasn’t a JW in secret however.

The book went through many scriptures that are rather controversial.
John 1:1, Col 1:15, 16. and lots more. (all from the NT)
Also about the word worship and the different ways it might be translated (someone was talking about that here)
He compared them in 9 common english translations, not to each other, but to the original greek.
And each time the NWT came out the most accurate or the best equal.
I must get myself a copy. He explained how the greek worked very well each time.

On John 1:1 he did not think “the word was a god” was the best possible translation. He prefered “divine” or “godlike” but said there isn’t an exact english word to translate what John was saying. The NWT was the best of the 9 translations because at least it was acknowledging the difference between ‘theos’ and ‘ton theon.’

Was a cool book. You should have a browse thru it.

 

[Regardless]

That is the question I would like answered… all “gods” besides the One True God are false. Do JWs believe Jesus is a false god? Or are there other true gods besides Jehovah? Do JWs worship TWO gods… the Almightly and the Mighty? Is that it? Two Gods? It makes no sense to me and I would love a JW to explain it.

Hi Yellowbird.

My answer to another question in post 137 might answer that, if you are still looking.

Regardless

 

[Answersplease]

Hello, Regardless.

I have a question, do Jehovah’s Witnesses try to convert Mormons, and do Mormons try to convert Jehovah’s Witnesses?

 

[Regardless]

Sooooooo… anyone wanna comment on my Jehovah’s Witness history a couple of pages ago? At least for me, the historical evidence is so damning that it makes even contemplating JW theology a non-starter.

I would like to comment!
(Though you might regret asking)

My good Rolltide!
It was superb. All correct info I am sure, except… Except you left out the 95% of JWs history that might make them look respectable! Haha! (I wonder why)

I’ve thought a lot about your professional history lesson in the last week.
I once read a book on World War II. The writer often went into great detail on the murder of particular groups of Jews by the Nazis, But the entire Allied invasion of Normandy (the biggest sea invasion in history) was summed up in just over a page!

For some reason your history lesson reminded me of that.

I see points 1 –10 (of 12) were all before the Jehovah’s Witnesses were called Jehovah’s Witnesses. 83% of their history before 1925? They became Jehovah’s witnesses in 1931 my good historian!
(But this period you focus on has the best ammo for a critic with many wrong expectations of Russell and Rutherford about the end. Cool.)

Wikipedia quotes: “Viewed globally, this persecution has been so persistent and of such an intensity that it would not be inaccurate to regard Jehovah’s witnesses as the most persecuted religion of the twentieth century”.

You seem to have skipped any mention of that. Why? (perhaps you were away from history class the day the most persecuted religion in the 20th century was discussed )
Or is it because Jesus predicted his followers would be persecuted just as he was? As did the apostles. You probably don’t want us claiming any such title.
Still a remarkable achievement (most persecuted religion in 20th century) for a non-political, anti-war, law abiding group.

Anyway, since you’d used up 80% of you post by this stage there is no time to mention the mob violence (often clergy instigated) against them. Elenor Roosevelt had to speak up to try and stop the awful violence in the USA.

Wikipedia: “The American Civil Liberties Union reported that by the end of 1940, “more than 1,500 Witnesses in the United States had been victimized in 335 separate attacks.”[55] Such attacks included beatings, being tarred and feathered, hanged, shot, maimed, and even castrated, as well as other acts of violence.

(Hey, those JW’s obey the law and teach people to love their neighbours from the Bible! we already know how to be nice to people! Let’s get them!)

Nor the unique stand that was made in Nazi Germany.

Wikipedia: “Taking everything into consideration, it has been established that no other religious movement resisted the pressure to conform to National Socialism with comparable unanimity and steadfastness.” He later went on to say that at “no point did they support Nazi rule. Rather, the stand taken by Jehovah’s Witnesses would have, according to Klaus Drobisch, “been befitting” for the majority of the population”.

This while all other churches went along with this demonic regime and were soon killing their own members in war! (They had to scramble for excuses afterwards, claiming they didn’t know and were really fighting the nazis behind the scenes and stuff. “The Pope didn’t protest because he was busy saving Jew’s in secret I tell you!”)
JW’s refused even to “Heil Hitler” (Which means salvation we owe to Hitler) they had this unique idea they owed salvation only to Jesus!
Nor would they swear an oath of loyalty to Hiltler and join the army (something even the future pope benedict presumably didn’t object to since he was in the German army on and off from 1943)

View attachment 7354

View attachment 7353

(I have tied inserting two photos from google images showing the unmentionable contrast between the JW and Church stands in this defining era. I hope they show up.)

The Soviel Union is another story.

Wikipedia: Although never large in number (estimated by the KGB to be 20,000 in 1968), the Jehovah’s Witnesses became one of the most persecuted religious groups in the Soviet Union during the post-World War II era.

I wonder why a small false religion received such fierce attacks in a world ruled by Satan?
Jesus never mentioned the world hating his disciples did he? (Man I’m sarcastic at this hour)

The growth is not worth mentioning either. You broadcast a 75% drop in 1922 and a blip in 1975, but avoided mentioning the growth. 200,000 in 1945 to over a million in 1965, 2 mill by 1975, 3 mill 85, 5mill 95, 7 mill 2005… (these are active members doing the preaching work)
Hundreds of thousands streaming out of other religions (including atheism) to a religion that, (if your history is complete) does little more than predict wrong dates about the end of the world!

Full stop. Sorry Rolltide. But you asked for it.

Ha! I enjoyed that. I am going to get treatment for my sarcasim problem ASAP.

Regardless

(man I hope the photos of nazi saluting catholic priests and JW’s in cncentration camps show up)

 

[Regardless]

Hello, Regardless.

I have a question, do Jehovah’s Witnesses try to convert Mormons, and do Mormons try to convert Jehovah’s Witnesses?

Both my friend.

I had some Mormans call last year. They got a heck of a fright to get invited in and offered a drink. I sat them down and invited them to prove the book of Morman was God’s word to me.

Why do you ask that?

 

[Answersplease]

I can’t remember for sure, but I think I heard that one group avoids the other, at least in one example, I don’t know if they were saying that there was general widespread avoidance.

 

[Regardless]

I can’t remember for sure, but I think I heard that one group avoids the other, at least in one example, I don’t know if they were saying that there was general widespread avoidance.

I vaguely remember someone saying something about the Mormans keeping a list on where JW’s live so they don’t call on them, but don’t know if it is true.

I can’t imagine any reason JW’s would avoid Mormons. It is hard enough finding people willing to discuss the Bible without avoiding people who are interested in it.

Do you subscribe to a particular religion at all?

 

[Answersplease]

I am a part time atheist.

 

[Fidei]

Regardless,

you failed to mention that Christ was not in any way related to these honorable people as small letter g-gods but mentions that-- “for us, a child is born…he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

are Moses, the judges and other venerable people called “Everlasting Fathers?” as i recall, Abraham was the father only for Israel, for no human may be everlasting fathers.
Christ is eternally begotten, one with the Father of the same being.

“Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever”
“though being divine in nature…did not claim equality with God but emptied himself”
Thus not created…being firstborn (worshipped) of all creation. just as David was for all kings.

Spirit comes from both the Son and the Father by calling the pre-incarnate son as the “Wonderful Counselor” in Is. 9:6
The Holy Spirit is also the wonderful counselor spoken of in the NT and, Christ’s Spirit as the being “in” us.

The Holy Spirit is Christ himself—

Acts 20:28 “Therefore, take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”
Galatians 4:6: "God has sent the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out “Abba, Father!”.

but also God Himself!

Acts 5:3-4 “But Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your hear to lie to the Holy Spirit…? …You have not lied to me but to God.”
Why has he lied to both the Spirit AND God? as common sense as “that is God’s Spirit!”
Gen 1:2: “… and the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.”

As Christ is also God THE SON not the son of God.

Romans 9:5: .". Christ came, who is over all, the eternal blessed God. Amen."
Colossians 2:8-9: “Christ, for in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form.”

Note that it mentions, the FULLNESS, not only in image or quality (such as people who are exalted calling them gods.) or something as twisted as “The Word was divine” or “The word was of god-like sort” or “a god” but the FULLNESS of the Godhead Himself!

I suggest you take another look on the very first verses of the holy bible, there it mentions the three working as one…

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Here it mentions God the Father (creator) inventor of all things

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Here, the Spirit of God, is able to separate from Him “hovering on earth”

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
Finally, the word of God speaking the first of His own creations.

 

[Fidei]

Hmm, im pretty intrigued with those bishops saluting along with those Nazi officers. It almost got me before, seeing pictures as such.

But the famous “seig heil” as iv’e known is very much like the kissing on the cheeks as a formal greeting for Arab men of today–or in other words, a unique salute. When a Democratic President, greets an Arab leader does it mean he supports the other? similarly, the seig heil is not an honor reserved only for Hitler as he also raises his hands to the common people, and the salute of his men of arms. Just a tip, because those pictures are very luring or deceiving especially with the help of a someone. Also note that Germany is a “free for all” country especially being the hotbed and culture site of the reformation. in short, less catholic.

 

[Fidei]

Wikipedia quotes: “Viewed globally, this persecution has been so persistent and of such an intensity that it would not be inaccurate to regard Jehovah’s witnesses as the most persecuted religion of the twentieth century”.

Lol, wikipedia is hardly the best source for [accurate] research because anyone can just log-in and edit the content.

Where have you been Regardless, the most killed during the war were Jews including Catholic people. If your’e asking where the Church stands for, and where the JW’s stand for, they, [CC] stood for freedom.

That’s why Priest’s were ONE of the targets of the Nazis. In one particular site, 2,600 priests were imprisoned—600 survives. I cant imagine these were the only priests who stood for freedom and not ALL of them! hmmm 2600 isnt such a big number eh? (sarcastic mood turning in) as well as the succeeding pope–Pius aiding in the rebuilding of Europe in the post war years and assuming the role of Faith and Charity in international efforts “to avoid future major conflicts”

 

[Regardless]

Regardless;6276463:

Where have you been Regardless, the most killed during the war were Jews including Catholic people. …
That’s why Priest’s were ONE of the targets of the Nazis. In one particular site, 2,600 priests were imprisoned—600 survives. …

It is a big discussion once we get into how religions behaved during the war of course. A very defining era I think that really showed the men from the boys.
The Jews were exterminated for ethnic reasons. Catholic and protestant converts were not spared.
Poland suffered terribly. 2 million ethnic Poles died in the camps. Poland has a huge catholic population. There may have been the priests you were thinkng of. (Possibly owing more to them being influential Poles than because they were Catholic.)

The reason I brought up Nazi germany was Rolltide presented a history lesson that focused only on mistakes and errors of the JW’s.
He totally left out (on purpose I am sure) any mention of the courageous stands the JW’s have made because of their faith, and the persecution they endured because of this.
Argueably more than any other religion in the 20th century.
(He thought Rutherford having a car available for resurrected ones was more relevant to history it seemed)
I had to be cheeky and show that his was a *very biased *history lesson.

If I somehow had everything a person has ever said on computer, I could comb through and pick out the most unkind, selfish, thoughtless things, but ignore all the kind, generous, noble things - and paint him as a monster.
I might get away without lying! but it would not be an accurate picture.

It’s clear Rolltide did something similar with the JW history, so I had to be cheeky and point that out. (Others reading his post might think it was the whole truth)

 

[T_More]

Re: post 136.

Oh for crying out loud. Is that the sort of stuff you let yourself get stumbled over?
No, I won’t waste my time.

Let? Hardly. I’m a tad more intelligent than that, although my wife would probably offer a rebuttal to that.

Regardless, I’m not trying to bait you and ruffle your feathers. I apologize if you thought that. And I appreciate your efforts to explain the WTS position, as well as you referring me to the WTS’ Insight book. Yes, I have it and know it. But, I’ve greatly advanced in my understanding of Christianity, and I’m so very past all the WTS has to offer and glad I left it all behind a long time ago. I’m a happier and more well-rounded person for it. I wanted to know YOUR thoughts on this, not canned responses from WTS pubs. You seem like an intelligent person. Surely you have personal reflections that you could share.

For me, in the end, I realized that Russell was just one of the many Restorationists that sprang up in 19th century America. He had no authority given to him to interpret the bible. No more so than William Miller, from which Russell and the WTS sprang from, or other of his contemporaries like Joseph Smith or Ellen White or the many others from that time period. The WTS had no more authority to change the bible than Calvin or throw out what had been accepted for 1500 years like Luther.

**“Every new philosophy is the praise of some old vice.”- GK Chesterton
**

I can’t accept the fact that Christ’s Church failed as soon as the last apostle died. He said the gates of hell would not prevail against it. If it failed in the beginning, than Christ is a liar, and that is just not something I’m willing to claim. I prefer to listen to the apostles and those that were taught directly by the apostles, rather than men that had new ideas 2000 years later. I liken it to our host here, Mr. Keating, and the illustration he drew in debating with another Restorationist, David Hunt. He said, “Who better understands the U.S. Constitution, those of today, who use it for their own means and have trampled it, or those that were tutored by the authors of it.” I think the present state of this country says it all.

The rich fullness of the Christian faith can be seen in the Early Church Fathers writings. And why not? Men such as Clement and St Polycarp walked with the apostles, were taught by the apostles, and in many cases, died horribly like the apostles for their belief in Christ. An apostate is not going to be willing to die for something. It makes no sense whatsoever to think that Christ would abandon his followers early on and then inconspicuously tap on the shoulder of someone like Russell almost 1900 years later and expect the rest of the world to figure out that THIS IS WHO I REALLY MEANT FOR YOU TO FOLLOW. Their dogged determination to guess at the idea of the end of this world and failing over and over, despite Christ saying it is not for us to know demonstrates that this can’t be the Church he described.

**“The new theologians do not worship the sun or the moon, they worship the clock.”- GK Chesterton
**

The utter confusion on so many key points, the flip flopping and the unwillingness to say they were wrong says it all for me. I see you mentioned the Nazi’s and trying to draw some conclusion about Catholics from it. What does it prove? Have they acknowledged their own history? Yes. Has the WTS, and admitted when they are wrong? No. Are they both comprised of imperfect men? Of course. But the CC has not changed their doctrine in two millennia. In less than 100 years, the WTS has. So who has been the Rock? If your happy with the answers you’ve found, more power to you.

 

[Regardless]

…
Regardless, I’m not trying to bait you and ruffle your feathers. I apologize if you thought that. And I appreciate your efforts to explain the WTS position, …
…I prefer to listen to the apostles and those that were taught directly by the apostles, rather than men that had new ideas 2000 years later.
…The rich fullness of the Christian faith can be seen in the Early Church Fathers writings. And why not? Men such as Clement and St Polycarp walked with the apostles, were taught by the apostles, and in many cases, died horribly like the apostles for their belief in Christ. …

Now that is a decent post. Some good reasoning.

Sorry if I was short with you, but I’m not going to address every statement in the WT publications, that in hindsight was made in ignorance and was later corrected.
Perhaps 100,000 articles in 130 years? If there is an incorrect statement in one article in a thousand, that’s 1000 mistakes we could list! I’ve already said the WT and writers were not inspired or talking directly from Jehovah. So looking for mistaken statements from 70 years ago in an effort to discredit future Bible reasoning is pointless.
That the witnesses are totally prepared to correct their errors and move on is the only way we will ever come to a better understanding of God’s word. If we didn’t admit and correct imperfect ideas we would still be trying to defend what Russel and his collegues understood 120 years ago.

• “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Daniel 12:4 (KJT)*
  The knowledge in the time of the end won’t be suddenly perfect. It will increase.
  If Jehovah is using the JW’s they will continue to increase and teach the Bible. If not, they will fade away like so many other sects.

That’s great you have also advanced in your understanding. I hope it has brought you closer to the truth.

Untill I find a religion that is closer to the original truth Jesus taught, I’ll stick with this one.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I made this thread for discussions to refute their claims. For a year running, we (me and my friend) have this occasional debates and i’d need all the help i can get here.

We had Jws come to our home for a Bible study/ debate 2 or 3 times a week for a year! We love those ladies but we got no where I did however get to know Gods word pretty well. this is a very long thead so I will skim it and see if you have all the answers you need. it would help if you give me a specific doctrine you need help with. I decided some things are not worth debating. if they want to believe He died on a stake for their sins instead of a cross so what.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Being Christian is being Catholic–one, holy and universal. Sadly my friend, you are a disciple of John Calvin, born in the 1500’s. No other denominations can trace back their lineage from the apostles.

the JW said that—as an illustration to imply that we shouldn’t need payment to receive our sacraments.

Silly for a Calvinist to offer help, According to Calvin God has already decided the fate of your friend so there is no need to bother. Strange I was once an anti-Catholic now Im anti Calvinist

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

"The name used by Abraham/Moses to speak to God is lost. Yahweh is the best version of the four Hebrew letters.

Jehovah is Old-English when J sounded like Yah " QUOTE previous posting.

Since I belong to the Catholic Church --it has asked our members in respect for our Jewish people of the Old Dispensation(Gods chosen people) not to use even this word.As you probably know The Jewish or Rabbinical tradition NEVER EVER said the name of God,that is why the vowels were lost ,as time went by-a few hundred years ago someone came up with the missing vowels–hence the name of the thread.Hebrew experts came up with the above one.

Lord lead us into the fullness of Your Truth-You said “I am The Way.The Truth and The Life”

th vwls wr nvr thr, th ntr ld tstmnt ws wrtn wtht vwls. makes you want to buy a vowel!

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

not exactly “took” money, but asked for it… It seems this practice is very contrary to JW beliefs that everything is for free–from their magazines to volunteer work, to baptism, etc…

1.Every end of the mass, don’t the priest mention the names of the recently departed? when they say–“Lets pray for the souls of…”? or has mass been varied in diff countries?

2.My JW friend, came across that old lady during their congregation’s preaching work

3.It was just an ordinary Eucharist(see #1 answer), the mass was NOT dedicated to her husband.

I stated “jehovah” as quoted by my friend.

When the JWs first started they sold their books , I believe the members pay for the tracks they give out and they are required to give out a set amount. You definatly have some doctrines as a Catholic that I cant help you defend, It just acured to me that Im going to agree with them on a couple of things.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Ask where thier authority comes from. Is it the bible as written by St. Jerome?
'You are Peter and upon this rock I build my Church". Ask who produced the bible.
In time you will find that to be a complete stumbling block for them. This will require more info on your part but I know this works.

they have their own “new world translation” made to fi their beliefs.

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

Can someone explain to me–“the light shines forth from darkness…” forgot the book and verse number… but i understand the WTS use this verse as justification for their changing and shifting beliefs with my friend saying–“God will reveal to us the truth by time”… is that enough for my friend to disregard most of Russel’s teachings? as well as their previous failed prophecies?

it is to them and they are the ones you are trying to reach.