Jehovah's Witnesses

[MyRdmrLvs]

I actually have been through a lot of JW info, all articles related to JW in CA–i have read. But is just so happens, that every time when i’m all prepared, they throw something unexpected.

I even invited her to mass once but she never went for it. (yet i attended their district convention when they invited me). typical. She even asked me, While they do preaching work, what does the our church do besides going to mass? I said, we DO preach, but what’s the point of preaching now that almost ALL your neighbors are Catholics?

You are looking at a very big time commitment. they are tought to answer all of the verses that you will through at them. they have books that say, "when they say this… You can say this… or this… they take classes on this. I would read liturature and dig through my concordence and pick through the Bible. week after week… It finaly ended when I found a book that the watchtower sighted as a sorce about what the early jews believed about Hell. the quote was completly taken out of context and the book actualy wasnt saying what they claimed at all. to me this was proof possitive that the watchtower was intentionaly being misleading. they were offended and ended our studies. this is why I sometimes ask, is it needed for salvation to believe Christ is God? John Chapter 8 seams to say that it is but you wouldnt know it if you didnt understand what “I AM” means.

 

[Vasian]

Now that is a decent post. Some good reasoning.

Sorry if I was short with you, but I’m not going to address every statement in the WT publications, that in hindsight was made in ignorance and was later corrected.
Perhaps 100,000 articles in 130 years? If there is an incorrect statement in one article in a thousand, that’s 1000 mistakes we could list! I’ve already said the WT and writers were not inspired or talking directly from Jehovah. So looking for mistaken statements from 70 years ago in an effort to discredit future Bible reasoning is pointless.
That the witnesses are totally prepared to correct their errors and move on is the only way we will ever come to a better understanding of God’s word. If we didn’t admit and correct imperfect ideas we would still be trying to defend what Russel and his collegues understood 120 years ago.

What about the tens of thousands of people who were disfellowshipped for “running ahead” as it were, or those also kicked out for refuting issues that were later “corrected”?

Yes, what about all of those ones that were labeled as apostates (heretics) yet after the WTS made their (so-called) “corrections” those people were left in the wilderness as it were, never given an apology but are still casualties of the WTS and their (so-called) “corrections”!

The blood of many is on the hands of the WTS.

Many were disfellowshipped because they accepted an organ transplant back when the WTS prohibited such a thing.
Many died because they refused an organ transplant because the WTS prohibited it.
Yet, after the WTS received “new light” (special dispensation) did they apologize to those that earlier received an organ transplant? No.

Did they offer an apology to those relatives of dead ones, who because the WTS said NO to organ transplants did not receive one? NO!

Please do not trivialize the human damage the WTS has meted out over the years to fellow humans because of (so-called) “new light”!

What the WATCHTOWER SOCIETY has done over the years to innocent people over their changing doctrines and dogma is scurrilous at best!

Untill I find a religion that is closer to the original truth Jesus taught, I’ll stick with this one.

You are not actively looking

 

[Fidei]

• “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, even to the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." Daniel 12:4 (KJT)*
  The knowledge in the time of the end won’t be suddenly perfect. It will increase.
  If Jehovah is using the JW’s they will continue to increase and teach the Bible. If not, they will fade away like so many other sects.

That’s actually a good thought “increasing knowledge” but it said increase–not remove and change doctrine to something different.

Our Lord said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all Truth.
Through the centuries, thats exactly whats been happening. But, right from the start, the Church has taught only the Truth, and has never had to reject one of Her earlier teachings to make way for something “more truthful”.

It is entirely ridiculous to claim that God would allow His Church to initially teach error. we may be ignorant at first, but gradual learning of tradition and scripture would lead us to a deepening deposit of faith. Beliefs such as the true nature of Christ and Mary’s Immaculate Conception flow from that–things which would not contradict earlier or original teachings.

Now, the modern JW would find it utterly wrong to believe in the power of the pyramid for it is very pagan and has nothing to do with the bible, but that’s exactly the material Russel based on his 1914 “invisible return of Christ.”

Just some original texts from earlier WT mags:

"To worship Christ in any form cannot be wrong … " (WT, 3-1880, 83). “It is unscriptural for worshippers of the living and true God to render worship to the Son of God, Jesus Christ” (WT, 11-1-1964, 671).

The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT, 7-1879, 7-8). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT, 6-1-1952, 338). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT 8-1-1965, 479). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT 6-1-1988, 31). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Live Forever, early ed., 179). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Live Forever, later ed., 179). The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. 2, 985). The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Revelation: Its Grand Climax at Hand! 273).

“Everyone in America should take pleasure in displaying the American flag” (WT Reprints, 5-15-1917, 6068). The flag is “an idolatrous symbol” (Awake!, 9-8-71, 14).

“There could be nothing against our consciences in going into the army” (WT, 4-15-1903, 120). Due to conscience, Jehovah’s Witnesses must refuse military service (WT, 2-1-1951, 73).

 

[Vasian]

Therefore, I’ll somewhat repeat my last post with clarification…

“Increasing in knowledge” is not in and of itself a bad thing at all.

However… Claiming God given laws as one’s authority where lives are involved is a whole other issue!
When a religious organization claims to be “The Channel Of God” (and that is a WTS quote) and claims that a position on say, organ transplants is prohibited by The Almighty God Jehovah Himself, then that is where the trouble lies.

At one time, the WTS did in fact prohibit organ transplants. These rule setters claimed to be “The Channel of God” ("The Faithful and Discreet Slave Class, also know as “The Anointed Ones”) who announced this “new light” at that time.

Therefore, many who were faithful to the WTS refused an organ transplant and because of this faith in the Watchtower leadership died.

There were also others who disagreed with this “new light” and either refused to acknowledge and adhere to this “new light” and were disfellowshipped or for receiving a life saving organ transplant were disfellowshipped.

Yes, these ones were labeled as apostates (heretics) and kicked out of the religion.

Then, years later came (more) “new light” and organ transplants were allowed. (I guess God changed his mind)

Yes, then JW’s were “allowed” to receive life saving organ transplants!

Did the WTS then go back and “un”-disfellowship those they had earlier kick out as heretics? No!

Did the WTS offer up apologies to those loved ones of the dead who died as a result of not receiving life saving organ transplants because the WTS said so? No!

And not too long ago the WTS had a total, 100% prohibition on the use of blood, be it a portion of blood or all of blood. No transfusions whatsoever!

Presently, because of “ongoing”, “new light” portions of blood can now be used and transfused. I guess God changed his mind on this as well.

My guess is that soon even this will “change”.

The issue is not the change.

The issue is that they made up their own Laws, and enforced those Laws on the congregations, splitting up families through disfellowship practices, and leaving a trail of dead ones.

They did this, claiming it was from God, and when they realized they were wrong, they too claimed the “change” was from God.

Very, very sad!

 

[Rolltide]

Fidei;6277257:

It is a big discussion once we get into how religions behaved during the war of course. A very defining era I think that really showed the men from the boys.
The Jews were exterminated for ethnic reasons. Catholic and protestant converts were not spared.
Poland suffered terribly. 2 million ethnic Poles died in the camps. Poland has a huge catholic population. There may have been the priests you were thinkng of. (Possibly owing more to them being influential Poles than because they were Catholic.)

The reason I brought up Nazi germany was Rolltide presented a history lesson that focused only on mistakes and errors of the JW’s.
He totally left out (on purpose I am sure) any mention of the courageous stands the JW’s have made because of their faith, and the persecution they endured because of this.
Argueably more than any other religion in the 20th century.
(He thought Rutherford having a car available for resurrected ones was more relevant to history it seemed)
I had to be cheeky and show that his was a *very biased *

history lesson.

If I somehow had everything a person has ever said on computer, I could comb through and pick out the most unkind, selfish, thoughtless things, but ignore all the kind, generous, noble things - and paint him as a monster.
I might get away without lying! but it would not be an accurate picture.

It’s clear Rolltide did something similar with the JW history, so I had to be cheeky and point that out. (Others reading his post might think it was the whole truth)

You apparently completely missed my point. Sure, the JW’s have had some honorable members! The rank and file are generally very good people, albeit misguided. That said, you could say similar things about the Mormons as well. I’ve rarely met a Mormon that I didn’t like, and that wasn’t exceedingly kind. That doesn’t mean that their doctrine is correct. My point was simply to demonstrate that the theological underpinnings of the Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t have a leg to stand on. It was a historical expose of doctrinal development only.

 

[Vasian]

That’s actually a good thought “increasing knowledge” but it said increase–not remove and change doctrine to something different.

Our Lord said that the Holy Spirit would lead us into all Truth.
Through the centuries, thats exactly whats been happening. But, right from the start, the Church has taught only the Truth, and has never had to reject one of Her earlier teachings to make way for something “more truthful”.

It is entirely ridiculous to claim that God would allow His Church to initially teach error. we may be ignorant at first, but gradual learning of tradition and scripture would lead us to a deepening deposit of faith. Beliefs such as the true nature of Christ and Mary’s Immaculate Conception flow from that–things which would not contradict earlier or original teachings.

Now, the modern JW would find it utterly wrong to believe in the power of the pyramid for it is very pagan and has nothing to do with the bible, but that’s exactly the material Russel based on his 1914 “invisible return of Christ.”

Just some original texts from earlier WT mags:

The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT, 7-1879, 7-8).
The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT, 6-1-1952, 338).
The men of Sodom will be resurrected (WT 8-1-1965, 479).
The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (WT 6-1-1988, 31).
The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Live Forever, early ed., 179).
The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Live Forever, later ed., 179).
The men of Sodom will be resurrected (Insight on the Scriptures, Vol. 2, 985).
The men of Sodom will not be resurrected (Revelation: Its Grand Climax at Hand! 273).

 

[Vasian]

“New Light…”? Attribute it to God
Old light…"? Blame God

The Watchtower Society believe and teach that Jehovah has chosen them as his sole channel of communication here on earth. The Watchtower believes that from 1879 Jehovah has been using the publishing company to disseminate his “accurate knowledge” and “spiritual food” to its followers. And what accurate knowledge has that been we might ask, well the Watchtower told us how the great pyramid of Gizeh was Jehovah’s stone witness, that Jesus’ second coming occurred in 1874, the “ancient worthies” would be brought back to life in 1925, Aluminum cooking utensils are the curse of mankind, Vaccinations are the work of the devil and aspirin causes heart disease to name but a few.

Do you think Jehovah would allow his only chosen channel of communication to embarrass not only themselves but his divine name?
Do you think that Jehovah would want to give only the most “accurate knowledge” on medical advice to his followers through his sole channel of communication?

Watchtower 1930 August 1 p.239
“The Watchtower is the channel which Jehovah, our God, is using at this time to in the faithful remnant who are keeping the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”

Watchtower 1981 February 15 pp.17-19
"From such experiences it can be seen that Jehovah God caused the Bible to be written in such a way that one needs to come in touch with His human channel before one can fully and accurately understand it. True, we need the help of God’s holy spirit, but its help also comes to us primarily by association with the channel Jehovah God sees fit to use.

**
Our Kingdom Ministry September 2002 (For Britain) p. 8**

"God’s Appointed Channel: Bear in mind that our heavenly Father has an appointed channel of communication, "the faithful and discreet slave." That “slave” has the responsibility to determine what information is made available to the household of faith, as well as “the proper time” for it to be dispensed. This spiritual food is available only through the theocratic organization. We should always look to God’s appointed channel for reliable information, not to a network of Internet users

 

[T_More]

“New Light…”? Attribute it to God
Old light…"? Blame God

The Watchtower Society believe and teach that Jehovah has chosen them as his sole channel of communication here on earth. The Watchtower believes that from 1879 Jehovah has been using the publishing company to disseminate his “accurate knowledge” and “spiritual food” to its followers. And what accurate knowledge has that been we might ask, well the Watchtower told us how the great pyramid of Gizeh was Jehovah’s stone witness, that Jesus’ second coming occurred in 1874, the “ancient worthies” would be brought back to life in 1925, Aluminum cooking utensils are the curse of mankind, Vaccinations are the work of the devil and aspirin causes heart disease to name but a few.

Do you think Jehovah would allow his only chosen channel of communication to embarrass not only themselves but his divine name?
Do you think that Jehovah would want to give only the most “accurate knowledge” on medical advice to his followers through his sole channel of communication?

Watchtower 1930 August 1 p.239
“The Watchtower is the channel which Jehovah, our God, is using at this time to in the faithful remnant who are keeping the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ”

Watchtower 1981 February 15 pp.17-19
"From such experiences it can be seen that Jehovah God caused the Bible to be written in such a way that one needs to come in touch with His human channel before one can fully and accurately understand it. True, we need the help of God’s holy spirit, but its help also comes to us primarily by association with the channel Jehovah God sees fit to use.

**
Our Kingdom Ministry September 2002 (For Britain) p. 8**

"God’s Appointed Channel: Bear in mind that our heavenly Father has an appointed channel of communication, "the faithful and discreet slave." That “slave” has the responsibility to determine what information is made available to the household of faith, as well as “the proper time” for it to be dispensed. This spiritual food is available only through the theocratic organization. We should always look to God’s appointed channel for reliable information, not to a network of Internet users

The last article shows that this has not been something that they used to claim, it’s being claimed still even now. And I love the very last part, “not to a newtwork of Internet users.” That’s rich! Keep them ignorant and there is nothing to question. It reminds of the Wizard of Oz scene, “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.”

 

[Vasian]

The last article shows that this has not been something that they used to claim, it’s being claimed still even now. ***And I love the very last part, “not to a network of Internet users.” ***That’s rich! Keep them ignorant and there is nothing to question. It reminds of the Wizard of Oz scene, “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.”

I find it chilling how so many JW’s heed this, and do not look past the WTS, even though one of their books is entitled, “Make Sure Of All Things… Hold Fast To What Is Fine”
Simply amazing!

 

[zach_dunn]

Sorry. “Different forms” of the word god. Like “The God” and “a god”?

More like “the God” and “God”.

Sounds like you are a bit of a greek scholar!

Oh you! I haven’t had any formal training yet, that’s coming in two years!

Please. What is the difference between “ton theon” and “theos”?

theos according to Strong:

a deity, especially the supreme Divinity; God, god.

I’m not going to dance around it, theos can mean god in the little “g” sense, but theos does mean “deity” without a doubt. Just for clarity’s sake, I will post the definition here:

Deity

• the rank or essential nature of a god
• a god or goddess

In other words, that which is subject to worship. If you wish to continue translating Jn 1:1 as “a god”, you will have to accept Jesus as a false god because the application of theos to Christ says that He is a deity; also, the Bible tells us the worship Christ [Heb 1:6], thus it would be telling us to worship a false god which would mean the Bible would contradict itself! We both know that can’t happen.

Just for future reference (Strong):

Hebrews 1:6 — “worship”

proskuneo

• WORSHIP
• to fawn or crouch to (literally or figuratively)
• prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore)

 

[MyRdmrLvs]

I found proof that the watchtower deceives its readers… I went to a huge bookstore and found the Jewish Encyclopedia that the WT quotes allot. I found the page and the quote that they were using. they were so clearly ripping it out of context! not only did the rest of the page contradicted the very point they were making. There was no doubt from reading the WT that they were saying that the source quoted supported their belief. It was a clear LIE! When any person claims to speak for God, they should pass the test Given by God Himself. What they say must come to pass! God has humiliated the WT as He humiliated Joseph Smith.

 

[dj_dave]

Fidei

YOU ARE VERY QUICK AT POINTING TO THE ERRORS BUT NOT SO QUICK TO EXPLAIN WHY WE MAKE CERTAIN CHANGES. YOU JUST “BEAT YOUR FELLOW SLAVES”
MATT 24:48,49

Does this seem to you to be be ‘changing our minds’ with out reason?

*** w88 6/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
Questions From Readers
Do Jesus’ words at Matthew 11:24 mean that those whom Jehovah destroyed by fire in Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected?

In conscientiously responding to this question over the years, we have discussed Jesus’ words at Matthew 10:14, 15; 11:20-24; and Luke 10:13-15. A recent review of this suggests that these verses need not be taken as statements about the future for the people of Sodom/Gomorrah. Before we examine other Bible comments about the people destroyed in those cities, let us consider what Jesus said.

While in Galilee, Jesus “reproach[ed] the cities in which most of his powerful works had taken place, because they did not repent.” He named three: “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! because if the powerful works had taken place in Tyre and Sidon that took place in you, they would long ago have repented . . . It will be more endurable for Tyre and Sidon on Judgment Day than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you perhaps be exalted to heaven? Down to Hades you will come; because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sodom, it would have remained until this very day. . . . It will be more endurable for the land of Sodom on Judgment Day than for you.” (Matthew 11:20-24) Jesus made similar statements when sending the 12 disciples out to preach, and later the 70.—Matthew 10:14, 15; Luke 10:13-15.

Prior to 1964, we took these verses to mean that the people of Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum merited eternal destruction. However, Watchtower articles in 1964 and 1965 made it clear that all in Hades, or Sheol, (mankind’s common grave) will come forth in the resurrection and thereafter will be ‘judged according to their deeds.’—Revelation 20:13.
Those articles also reasoned: Matthew 11:23 and Luke 10:15 say that Capernaum would not be exalted to heaven but be brought “down to Hades,” which, at least, suggests debasement for the people of that city. In the same passage, Jesus mentioned ancient Tyre and Sidon. According to Ezekiel 32:21, 30, people of Sidon, who were condemned by God, went to Sheol. (Isaiah 23:1-9, 14-18; Ezekiel 27:2-8) Since Jesus paralleled Tyre/Sidon with Sodom, that indicated that the people of Sodom were in Sheol too.
A reexamination of Matthew 11:20-24, though, has brought into question whether Jesus was there discussing eternal judgment and resurrection. His point was how unresponsive the people in Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum were and how unlikely it was that they would reform even in the Judgment Day. Saying that it would be “more endurable” for Tyre/Sidon and Sodom/Gomorrah “on Judgment Day” was a form of hyperbole (exaggeration to emphasize a point) that Jesus need not have intended to be taken literally, any more than other graphic hyperboles that he used.

For example:
“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one particle of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled.” “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.” (Luke 16:17; 21:33; Matthew 5:18; compare Hebrews 1:10-12.) We know that the literal heavens and earth will never pass away. (Psalm 78:69; 104:5; Ecclesiastes 1:4) Jesus also said: “It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Mark 10:25) Certainly, Jesus did not mean that no rich man could ever become a disciple; some in the first century became anointed Christians. (1 Timothy 6:17-19) Jesus’ use of exaggeration was to stress how hard it is for a rich man to put God before material wealth and comforts.—Luke 12:15-21.

Hence, Jesus’ saying that it ‘would be more endurable on Judgment Day for Tyre or Sodom’ did not necessarily mean that those people will be present on Judgment Day. He could simply have been stressing how unresponsive and culpable were most in Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum. We say most because some in Capernaum did accept Christ. (Mark 1:29-31; Luke 4:38, 39) Yet, basically those cities rejected him. Some of their inhabitants, as with the scribes and the Pharisees, may even have sinned against the holy spirit, for which forgiveness is impossible even in the ‘system of things to come.’ Such individuals go to Gehenna.—Matthew 12:31, 32; 23:33.

 

[dj_dave]

Fidei

YOU ARE VERY QUICK AT POINTING TO THE ERRORS BUT NOT SO QUICK TO EXPLAIN WHY WE MAKE CERTAIN CHANGES. YOU JUST “BEAT YOUR FELLOW SLAVES”
MATT 24:48,49

Does this seem to you to be be ‘changing our minds’ with out reason?

*** w88 6/1 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***
Questions From Readers
Do Jesus’ words at Matthew 11:24 mean that those whom Jehovah destroyed by fire in Sodom and Gomorrah will be resurrected?

In conscientiously responding to this question over the years, we have discussed Jesus’ words at Matthew 10:14, 15; 11:20-24; and Luke 10:13-15. A recent review of this suggests that these verses need not be taken as statements about the future for the people of Sodom/Gomorrah. Before we examine other Bible comments about the people destroyed in those cities, let us consider what Jesus said.

While in Galilee, Jesus “reproach[ed] the cities in which most of his powerful works had taken place, because they did not repent.” He named three: “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! because if the powerful works had taken place in Tyre and Sidon that took place in you, they would long ago have repented . . . It will be more endurable for Tyre and Sidon on Judgment Day than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you perhaps be exalted to heaven? Down to Hades you will come; because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sodom, it would have remained until this very day. . . . It will be more endurable for the land of Sodom on Judgment Day than for you.” (Matthew 11:20-24) Jesus made similar statements when sending the 12 disciples out to preach, and later the 70.—Matthew 10:14, 15; Luke 10:13-15.

Prior to 1964, we took these verses to mean that the people of Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum merited eternal destruction. However, Watchtower articles in 1964 and 1965 made it clear that all in Hades, or Sheol, (mankind’s common grave) will come forth in the resurrection and thereafter will be ‘judged according to their deeds.’—Revelation 20:13.
Those articles also reasoned: Matthew 11:23 and Luke 10:15 say that Capernaum would not be exalted to heaven but be brought “down to Hades,” which, at least, suggests debasement for the people of that city. In the same passage, Jesus mentioned ancient Tyre and Sidon. According to Ezekiel 32:21, 30, people of Sidon, who were condemned by God, went to Sheol. (Isaiah 23:1-9, 14-18; Ezekiel 27:2-8) Since Jesus paralleled Tyre/Sidon with Sodom, that indicated that the people of Sodom were in Sheol too.
A reexamination of Matthew 11:20-24, though, has brought into question whether Jesus was there discussing eternal judgment and resurrection. His point was how unresponsive the people in Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum were and how unlikely it was that they would reform even in the Judgment Day. Saying that it would be “more endurable” for Tyre/Sidon and Sodom/Gomorrah “on Judgment Day” was a form of hyperbole (exaggeration to emphasize a point) that Jesus need not have intended to be taken literally, any more than other graphic hyperboles that he used.

For example:
“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one particle of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled.” “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.” (Luke 16:17; 21:33; Matthew 5:18; compare Hebrews 1:10-12.) We know that the literal heavens and earth will never pass away. (Psalm 78:69; 104:5; Ecclesiastes 1:4) Jesus also said: “It is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Mark 10:25) Certainly, Jesus did not mean that no rich man could ever become a disciple; some in the first century became anointed Christians. (1 Timothy 6:17-19) Jesus’ use of exaggeration was to stress how hard it is for a rich man to put God before material wealth and comforts.—Luke 12:15-21.

Hence, Jesus’ saying that it ‘would be more endurable on Judgment Day for Tyre or Sodom’ did not necessarily mean that those people will be present on Judgment Day. He could simply have been stressing how unresponsive and culpable were most in Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum. We say most because some in Capernaum did accept Christ. (Mark 1:29-31; Luke 4:38, 39) Yet, basically those cities rejected him. Some of their inhabitants, as with the scribes and the Pharisees, may even have sinned against the holy spirit, for which forgiveness is impossible even in the ‘system of things to come.’ Such individuals go to Gehenna.—Matthew 12:31, 32; 23:33.

cont.

 

[Vasian]

Nice deflection, DJ:thumbsup:

Now… Please if you will, (or any JW) answer this…

1. Either through cutting-n-pasting a Watchtower article, or if you are capable, answer in your own words the following questions…

How does the “faithful and discreet slave” (Watchtower Society Governing Body) justify the thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses who died as a result of their heeding the (at that time) “new light” and did not receive a life saving organ transplant, or did not receive a vaccination?
Yes, please… Explain to us why children died in the 1980’s to as recent as 1998 because they were not given a life saving paced red blood cell exchange? (which is now allowed by the WTS because of “new light”) (??)

1. Why in the world did not the “faithful and discreet slave”, at least offer a pubic apology to the loved ones of those that have died as a result of their “changing knowledge”?
2. And, what about the ones that were disfellowshipped (excommunicated) because they did receive an organ transplant, vaccination, or a portion of blood in the form of a vaccination, or for sickle cell anemia, or what about all of those that were accused of “running ahead of the slave” (direct quote) by openly disagreeing with this “channel of God”?

Yes tell us DJ, oh’ wise one, defender of Truth of the Watchtower Society:thumbsup:

I’ve yet to read comments of an aged JW, somebody who is at least in their late 40’s. I encourage an Elder to chime in here and answer my questions above.

 

[dj_dave]

cont.

cont.
Aside from Jesus’ words on the point, Ezekiel 32:21, 30 does tell us that pagan people of ancient Tyre/Sidon are in Sheol; so they are in line for a resurrection. What, then, about the inhabitants of “the land of Sodom on Judgment Day”? The mere fact that Jesus paralleled Sidon with Sodom does not establish the future prospects of those wicked ones whom God destroyed with sulfur and fire. But let us see what else the Bible says on the question.

One of the most pointed comments is in Jude 7. Jude had just spoken of (1) Israelites destroyed for lack of faith, and (2) angels who sinned and are ‘reserved with eternal bonds for the judgment of the great day.’ Then Jude wrote: “So too Sodom and Gomorrah . . . are placed before us as a warning example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.” This text has been applied to the actual cities’ being destroyed everlastingly, not the people. However, in view of Jude 5 and 6, likely most people would take verse 7 to mean a judicial punishment of individuals. (Similarly, Matthew 11:20-24 would be understood as criticizing people, not stones or buildings.) In this light, Jude 7 would mean that the wicked people of Sodom/Gomorrah were judged and destroyed everlastingly.

Looking elsewhere, we find it noteworthy that more than once the Bible links the Flood and Sodom/Gomorrah. In what context?

When asked about “the conclusion of the system of things,” Jesus foretold the coming “end” and a “great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning.” (Matthew 24:3, 14, 21) He went on to speak of “the days of Noah” and what “occurred in the days of Lot” as being examples of people who took no note of warning about coming destruction. Jesus added: “The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed.” (Luke 17:26-30; compare Matthew 24:36-39.) Was Jesus illustrating just an attitude, or does the context in which he used these examples suggest that eternal judgments were involved?

Later, Peter wrote about God’s judgments and His punishing those deserving it. Then Peter used three examples: The angels that sinned, the ancient world of Noah’s time, and those destroyed in Sodom/Gomorrah. The latter, Peter said, ‘set a pattern for ungodly persons of things to come.’ (2 Peter 2:4-9) Thereafter, he compared the destruction that people suffered in the Deluge with the coming “day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.”

That precedes the promised new heavens and new earth.—2 Peter 3:5-13.
Likewise, at the end of the present wicked system, will those whom God executes have had a final judgment? That is the indication of 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9: “It is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength.”

There is an interesting similarity in phraseology between this description and what Jude said occurred in the case of Sodom. Furthermore, Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 19:11-21 indicate that “the goats” cut off in the coming war of God will experience “everlasting cutting-off” in “the lake of fire,” which symbolizes permanent annihilation.—Revelation 20:10, 14.

Consequently, in addition to what Jude 7 says, the Bible uses Sodom/Gomorrah and the Flood as patterns for the destructive end of the present wicked system. It is apparent, then, that those whom God executed in those past judgments experienced irreversible destruction. Of course, each of us can confirm that by his proving faithful to Jehovah now. In that way we will qualify to be alive in the new world to see whom he resurrects and whom he does not. We know that his judgments are perfect. Elihu assured us: “For a fact, God himself does not act wickedly, and the Almighty himself does not pervert judgment.”—Job 34:10, 12.

Did you notice the wonderful reasoning? These are the things that are never mentioned
when it comes to ‘changes’ in our thinking.We don’t just ‘change our mind’ without analizing the scriptures in deep detail.
.Also REGARDING YOUR OTHER COMMENTS…, many died from Lung cancer until we all stopped smoking. Should we apologize to those families too?

With an increase of knowedge in the medical field along with new technology there is often a need for readjustments in one’s thinking.regarding procedures.

You can put down the Witnessses all you want The REAL fact remains that Jesus said (John 13:35) By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

ADMIT IT: if a war broke out against Germany–Catholics in this country would quickly KILL catholics in Germany! There is no escaping that fact! (Isa. 2:4) (1 John 3:11-12)
2*Cor. 10:3,4: (1 John 4:20-21) 20**If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also.

As for errors would you want to join “God’s true organization” if it had a history like that of natural Isreal? Look at the record of how many times the Kings “* did what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah*” is said throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.
Notice too: Jeremiah 25 “they did not listen”

Now I have a question for you all: How do you explain or apply Matt 7:13,14 with all of the Catholics in the world?

 

[JeanneH]

cont.

.

You can put down the Witnessses all you want The REAL fact remains that Jesus said (John 13:35) By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

ADMIT IT: if a war broke out against Germany–Catholics in this country would quickly KILL catholics in Germany! There is no escaping that fact! (Isa. 2:4) (1 John 3:11-12)
2*Cor. 10:3,4: (1 John 4:20-21) 20**If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also.

Aren’t you the lucky ones who count on us CHRISTIANS to be willing to go to war to insure democracy for the people. JW’s are more then willing to let us fight the military battles for you. If you are unwilling to fight for your country because of religion , even going as far as not to work on a military base, then you should not have the rights and privileges that brave patriots have died for. It is because of the brave who gave their lives for freedom, that you have the freedom to preach the WT.

*It is not a matter of hating our brother that there is war but a matter of retaining our freedom *
.
Thank God we have brave souls that WILL fight for the freedom of all, even for the Witnesses.

Jeanne

 

[Vasian]

cont.

.

Also REGARDING YOUR OTHER COMMENTS…, many died from Lung cancer until we all stopped smoking. Should we apologize to those families too?

With an increase of knowledge in the medical field along with new technology there is often a need for readjustments in one’s thinking.regarding procedures.

I can see that you are either not ingesting very well what you are reading, or are in fact deflecting once again what you do not want to personally deal with or perhaps do not understand fully…

My guess is that you are on the younger side, and have not done much independent study outside of what is spoon fed to you by the WTS.

Therefore, your posts of primarily cut-n-pasted WTS articles, along with your very limited personal comments are not very beneficial to anyone except maybe to yourself in the form of being able to count your time herein, on your monthly field service report.

My intention is not to attack your efforts but only to defend the truth about what has been the history of the WTS, and their heavy handed, legalistic approach to scripture.

Simply put, they have a history fraught with such tings as leaving a trail of dead ones behind them, and they have pretty much blamed God for 1, initial miss-information, and 2. for new light, as it were.

Nonetheless, it has resulted in unnecessary deaths, sickness, and in dividing up marriages and families.

Why it is, you cannot see this is something you yourself will have to deal with.
I’ve seen it myself, and I have lived it.

No amount of you posting WTS articles will change the facts and the history. In my opinion, when Paul talked about “The Great Apostasy”, the WTS was/is inclusive in his statement.

No… The WTS is not “the true religion”.
No… The WTS is not “The Channel of God”

I encourage you to carefully read over my posts herein and ingest what I wrote. give it some time to sink in, use your God-given logic about what is going on, and first and foremost pray about it.

There is one thing I am convinced about, and that is we all pray to the same God, and we all have accept the same Savior, Jesus Christ.

When I started praying specifically for insight, wisdom and a calm heart my eyes were opened up to what the WTS was really about.

Am I saying that you are not a Christian because you are a JW? Of course not! No more than I can state that about any single individual in any Christian organization as “only God knows the heart”

So many claim to be God’s true organization today. WTS, LDS and a host of others.
Yes, even the Catholics do, based on their history reaching so far back in time even claiming to it being back to a specific apostle. (tough to argue that)

But all have questionable issues in their history, and many have rituals that you, yourself point to and claim that because of these they are not the true religion.

Well, the WTS has a pretty pathetic history of its own that in fact is quite foolish on many levels.

Remember! These were Laws laid down, and enforced by the WTS, and not just mere suggestions to the brothers and sisters of the congregations.

Condemning vaccinations, organ transplants, the use of portions of blood for medical purposes are only a few. The problem is, is that it has left a trail of human damage and no apologies over these changing Laws have never been offered, and that is shameful!

Even the Catholic Church has offered numerous apologies over the years, humbling themselves before the entire world. Not so, for the WTS.

 

[Vasian]

God does not permit Christians to have controlling authority over other Christians in the church. (Matt 20:25-28, Mark 10:42-45, Luke 22:24-27, 1Pet 5:3, Matt 23:8-12, etc.)

One should keep in mind the following logic…
Mere men (governing body) have no right to cast a personal vision and demand obedience to their Laws.
These ones have gone far beyond clear statements of scripture, and set up their own legalistic, law making body, and enforce literally millions to follow their laws, which goes against the very basis of our Christian freedom.
Read the Apostle Paul’s writings carefully. I think you will find that besides talking first and foremost about the Salvation we gain through Christ, he then emphasized the freedom we gain through Christ. The WTS authoritative framework is structured in a way that goes against this very premise!

 

[spn82756]

A quick question. I might have missed the answer to this.

How can jw’s deny the existence of hell?

 

[Vasian]

A quick question. I might have missed the answer to this.

How can jw’s deny the existence of hell?

You mean deny the existence of a fiery hell where our loving Heavenly Father burns people in eternity?