Z
zach_dunn
Guest
They also have a weird heterodox teaching on the Resurrection, but it is the Resurrection none the less, I suppose. . . .
- Status
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
Dj Dave, will you please tell me who the Bible that the JW use and the names of the 5 that wrote it and the year,also please read what a Christian Bible has to say let me help you " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"
A
adstrinity
Guest
Hmmm…can’t help but notice you excluded the Isiah passage that alludes to the Trinity.
I mentioned to a friend about the JW’s, either in real life or on this site and her response was, “Predestination gone sillier.”
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
John 18-58-59 from the bible,JN 1=14-15, JN20-28
R
reslight
Guest
What we do not find in this verse in anything about three persons in Yahweh. The trinitarian has to imagine the trinitarian dogma applies, formulate assumptions based on that imagination, and then read those assumptions into what is stated, so that, in effect, what they actually present as proof is what one can imagine and assume concerning the scripture, not what is actually said in the scripture. Evidently what is being assumed is that Jesus is one of the persons of Yahweh, and the Jesus is sent by another person of Yahweh, and the spirit is another person of Yahweh, and either that Yahweh’s spirit as a person of Yahweh was sent by Yahweh, or that Yahweh’s spirit as a person of Yahweh sends another person of Yahweh, that is, Jesus. In reality, all through the Bible, Yahweh is presented as a unipersonal God; He is never presented as being more than one person.
Actually, Isaiah is the prophet who is writing the above, and is evidently the one referred to as being sent (Isaiah 6:9,10) by Yahweh. Isaiah speaks of himself as sent to Israel by Yahweh, and he also speaks of Yahweh’s spirit being sent, or that he was sent by Yahweh’s spirit.
In much of the book, Isaiah is quoting what Yahweh has said, but in this verse he suddenly stops quoting Yahweh and speaks of himself as being sent by Yahweh. This is not all that unusual in Isaiah’s writings, that is, that he stops quoting Yahweh, and starts speaking of himself, or someone else, without giving any indication of such a change.
Thus:
“Come near to me, hear this; from the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I.” And now the Lord Yahweh has sent me, and his Spirit. Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: “I am Yahweh your God, who teaches you to profit, who leads you by the way that you should go.”
The latter part of verse 16 represents the words of Isaiah and the words of Isaiah continue into the beginning of verse 17.
A similar case is Isaiah 8:1-3. One could read verse three as a continuation of the quotation of Yahweh’s words in verse one, thus making Yahweh as the one who went to the prophetess, but common sense tells us that Isaiah stopped quoting Yahweh and began referring to himself.
Even if this verse were referring to Jesus as the one sent, it still does not say anything about three persons in one Yahweh. The one who sent Jesus is still the only true God, and the one sent by the only true God is still not the only true God who sent him. — John 17:1,3.
Thus it should be apparent to all that the doctrine that Jesus is Yahweh is not found in Isaiah 48:16 (as it is not found anywhere else in the Bible). There is definitely nothing here to indicate that God’s spirit is a separate sentiency yet the Supreme Omniscient Being. And even more definitely we do not find anything in the verse about Yahweh as three persons, or of three persons in one “Godhead.”
BTW, the Catholic New American Translation states in the footnote of verse 16:
“Now the Lord . . . spirit”: said by Cyrus; cf Isaiah 48:14.
Thus, these Catholic translators would seem to apply these words to Cyrus.
Isaiah 48:16 from the New American Translation:
Come near to me and hear this! Not from the beginning did I speak it in secret; At the time it comes to pass, I am present: “Now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his spirit.”
J
JeanneH
Guest
R
reslight
Guest
Jesus had stated the fact that these Jewish leaders wanted to kill him, and he stated true reason as to why they sought to kill him. Jesus said: “You seek to kill me, because my word finds no place in you.” (John 8:37) And he stated: “But now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God.” (John 8:40) Jesus here speaks of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and Jesus speaks of Him, not as three persons, but as one person; nor does Jesus identify himself as being the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but he speaks of hearing the truth, which he heard from this unipersonal God. This agrees with Deuteronomy 18:15-19, wherein the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is spoken of as one person, who raises up from amongst the people another person as a prophet, through whom the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob speaks. Acts 3:13-26 relates this as concerning Jesus, whom the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob raised up from the amongst the children of Israel, and Hebrews 2:1,2 shows that this unipersonal God speaks through his Son, as prophesied in Deuteronomy 18:15-19. Nevertheless, Jesus spoke the truth; he was not the liar. It is because Jesus did indeed speak the words of the unipersonal God that the Jews sought to kill him. The Jews, however, were the liars, and Jesus told them so. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. — 1 Peter 1:3.
Further, Jesus pointed to this same thing when he asked the Jews who sought to kill him: "“I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me?” (John 10:32) Jesus knew the real reason they sought to kill him, which reason they denied. (John 10:33) Who was telling the truth, Jesus or the Jews?
The Jews also claimed that Jesus was a Samaritan, and that he had demon. Are we to believe that, simply because they made such a claim? – John 8:48.
Jesus himself stated that they were liars. – John 8:55.
Whatever the lying Jews thought to be a lawful reason to stone Jesus does not make their assumptions the reality. Nor was it that they all of sudden came upon such idea as a result of Jesus’ words of John 8:58.
Jesus said that Abraham had seen his day, the day when all the families of the earth will be blessed by Abraham’s seed (Genesis 22:18; Galatians 3:15), which brought Abraham rejoicing. The Jewish leaders, evidently putting his earlier statement (John 8:55) with this, must have assumed that this meant that Jesus had seen Abraham (although that was not exactly what Jesus had said), and thus questioned Jesus about his age, and Jesus responded to the question about his age, stating his existence before Abraham existed. The scripture in John 8:59 that they sought to kill him, but does not state why. The appeal is made to any earlier scripture (John 5:18), which scripture shows that their reaction to stone him was simply on the spur of the moment.
For this cause [Greek, dia, ground or reason] therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God. – John 5:18, World English
In John 5:18, John records the legal “cause” that the Jews were building up to claim a reason to kill Jesus, and thus, as recorded in John 8:59, they evidently sought the conclusion that Jesus’ statement of his existence before Abraham was proof of their claim that he was equal to God, or equal to a mighty spirit being, such as the angels. Their false claim was that he was a sinner pretending, “making himself” out to be, a mighty one, or God. If Jesus, however, had been the Most High, he would not have be “making himself” equal to Most High, as the claim of Jews was that he was a sinner man with a demon (John 8:48,52; 9:24) “making himself” equal to God, or to a mighty one.
However, the claim of the Jews also was that he had broken the sabbath, and, according to their traditional “law”, he had done so. But Jesus said that it was lawful to do good on the sabbath (Matthew 12:12; Mark 3:4; Luke 6:9), so that in the principle of the sabbath according to the law, he had not broken the sabbath.
R
reslight
Guest
I have started a study on my website which examines the usage of EGO EIMI throughout the New Testament. In no instance, however, can one “clearly” associate EGO EIMI with EHYEH/YAHWEH of Exodus 3:14,15 except that one uses the spirit of human imagination so as vaguely add that thought to, and read that thought into the verses.
Whatever reason they declared “blasphemy” does not mean that their reason was true for declaring blasphemy, as I have already demonstrated. However, in the context, the reason appears to have been that they wished to view him as a sinner who claimed to be the anointed (christ) of Yahweh (Isaiah 61:1), the promised Son of Yahweh the Blessed One, which they evidently considered to be blasphemy. – Matthew 26:63-68.
S
spn82756
Guest
John
Chapter 1
**1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be 4 through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; 5 the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. **
Chapter 1
**1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. What came to be 4 through him was life, and this life was the light of the human race; 5 the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. **
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Bill_Pick
Guest
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reslight
Guest
I am not with the JWs, but adding to the scripture a doctrine, such as the idea of three-personed God, which is never found in the Bible, is quite different from believing what is recorded in the Bible. Additionally, if Jesus was God, then rather than condemning sin in the flesh, as we read in Romans 8:3, Jesus actually justified sin in the flesh, for it would have proved that, in order for Adam to have obeyed the Most High, Adam would have needed to have been the Most High. Further, the idea that Jesus is still a human being of flesh would negate the very purpose for which Jesus became flesh, that is, to give that flesh in sacrifice to his God and Father to pay the atoning sacrifice for the sin of the world. (Luke 22:19; John 6:51; Hebrews 10:10; 1 John 4:2,3,10) In effect, the trinity doctrine replaces the Biblical basis of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus.
In John 20:28, some scholars believe that when Thomas referred to “My God,” [literally, the God of me] that he was referring, not to Jesus, but the Father of Jesus. This is partly based on the unusual Greek text, which places the definite article both before the Greek KURIOS as well as before the Greek THEOS, which normally would designate two persons. If one person was being address, the definite article would have been needed only once, not twice.
Additionally, there is nothing given in any of the rest of the Bible of anyone referring to Jesus as “the God of me,” or “the God of us.” No such custom is given by the Bible writers. So if Thomas did use this of Jesus as recorded in John 20:28, it certainly is an exception of such usage in the Bible.
At any rate, if Thomas was referring to Jesus as “the God of me,” it would have to be in the similar sense as John refers to the Logos as theos in John 1:1. The context shows that no one considered Thomas as claiming that Jesus was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, for it relates that these things were recorded so that one might believe that Jesus is the son of the unipersonal God, not that he is God. There is definitely nothing in the verse that indicate that Thomas though Jesus was a person of a triune God.
R
reslight
Guest
More importantly, what did the Bible writers believe, who have left us their message in the written form of the New Testament?
So the trinitarian claims. Actually, I do not know that Arius denied the divinity of Jesus; he simply explained that divinity in accordance with the Hebraic background.
From the writings of the New Testament, we learn that God has revealed his truths by means of his holy spirit through the apostles. The apostles were led by means of spirit of truth into all the truths concerning Christ and what he said, and thereby the faith was delivered to the saints in the first century. (John 14:26; 16:4-13; Galatians 1:12; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Timothy 2:2; Jude 1:3) Those truths were preserved for later generations is what we now called the New Testament. – Ephesians 3:3-12; Colossians 1:25,26; 1 John 4:6.
Those early Christians who agreed with the apostles certainly must have believed that there was going to be an apostasy, a “falling away” from the truth of God’s Word, with strong delusions. (Matthew 13:24-30; Acts 20:29,30; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Timothy 4:3,4) Further, if they agreed with the apostles, they must have believed the falling away had already begun in the first century, with some receiving a different spirit and preaching “another Jesus”; the apostasy was restrained for only a short while. – 2 Thessalonians 2:7; 1 John 2:18,19; 2 Corinthians 11:4.
History shows that their belief came true, for after the spostles died, the apostasy spread rapidly and developed into the great “Man of Sin”, or more correctly “Insubordinate Man,” “Lawless Man”, or “Illegal Man”, a great religious system, which claimed to have the authority to add to God’s Word since their revelation was allegedly of God’s Spirit, and these revelations were claimed, in effect, to add more to the faith that scriptures say had once delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3)
Since we do not find in the Bible any thought whatsoever concerning a God of three persons, this thought has to have come about as a result of the foretold apostasy, probably related to the false idea that Jesus had to be God Almighty in order to provide atonement for sins. With this spirit of error in mind, the writings of the apostles were totally reinterpreted by means of the spirit of human imagination and assumptions so as to accommodate the error, and many of the Hellenic Jewish philosophies were adapted and added to and blended in with the New Testament, even as the Jews had done with the Old Testament.
If they were indeed teaching that Jesus was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, yes they were wrong, and had become part of the foretold apostasy. The apostles always distinguished Jesus from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
I will state however, that because one was taught by the apostles, does not mean that they actually taught what the apostles taught. This can be illustrated by the quick turnaround of Rutherford, who had been taught by Russell. From Russell, Rutherford had learned the “ransom for all,” but he denied that teaching, and replaced it with a teaching that basically stated: “Join me or be eternally destroyed!” Russell never taught such a teaching, but you can find many people making the claim that Russell taught this, retroactively attributing to Russell the teachings of Rutherford. Some even quote Russell out of context to make it appear that Russell taught this teaching of Rutherford.
The writings of the apostles are truly undeniable. They always depicted the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person, separate and distinct from the Son of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
R
reslight
Guest
That Russell did not believe that he was the only one who truly understood the meaning the Bible can be seen from his writings, for he often provided many different views about many different things, written by different ones (this would not happen in today’s Watchtower). Indeed, several times he changed his viewpoint due to what others presented to him. He did believe that he had the truth on the ransom (although others in 19th century also showed knowledge of this before Russell). Russell was not the first in modern times to teach the core teaching of the ransom, and to reject doctrines that would diminish that teaching, such as the trinity, inherent immortality, eternal conscious suffering, etc. He was the first to put those teachings in a convenient form. As far as chronology and time prophecies, he never considered these to basic to Christian doctrine, and disclaimed that views on chronology and time prophecy should be considered the same as “doctrine.”
F
Fidei
Guest
so, reslight, can you explain why Christ asked his apostles to…
“baptize in the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”?
wouldn’t it have been simpler to say, “baptize in the name of God Almighty”?
If you can give me verses that say that GOD not Father is NOT equal to Jesus in nature?
Phil. 2:6-7 “Though being divine in nature, he did not claim equality with God to be grasped but emptied himself taking on the nature of a servant”.
The very fact that he has the claim to be equal with God, simply means, HE IS God, but emptied himself so that the “Word (who was God) may become flesh that dwelleth with us”. (mind boggling isnt it?) If you can Give me ABSOLUTE SCRIPTURAL PROOF to say that Christ is NOT God? if you can,.maybe something that any of the apostles wrote that Christ is not God? and that he is a human incarnate of an Archangel?
vs such verses…(courtesy of Scripture Catholic)
John 1:1 - John writes, “the Word was God.” This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ’s divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah’s bible, the passage was changed to “Word was a god.” This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).
John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).
John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 - the Greek word for “only-begotten” is “monogenes” which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.
John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man’s angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.
John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus’ Kingdom.
John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.
Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.
Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel “killed the Author of Life.” This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.
Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.
Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.
Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.
Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.
Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.
Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.
1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.
Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.
Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.
Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the “firstborn” of all creation. The Greek word for “first-born” is “prototokos” which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).
Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.
Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.
Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.
Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.
Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.
Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son “God.” But of the Son He says, “Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever.”
Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son “God.” “Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee.”
Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son “Lord.” “And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work.”
Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.
2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:20 - “that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.”
Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.
Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, “The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life.” See Isa. 44:6.
“baptize in the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”?
wouldn’t it have been simpler to say, “baptize in the name of God Almighty”?
If you can give me verses that say that GOD not Father is NOT equal to Jesus in nature?
Phil. 2:6-7 “Though being divine in nature, he did not claim equality with God to be grasped but emptied himself taking on the nature of a servant”.
The very fact that he has the claim to be equal with God, simply means, HE IS God, but emptied himself so that the “Word (who was God) may become flesh that dwelleth with us”. (mind boggling isnt it?) If you can Give me ABSOLUTE SCRIPTURAL PROOF to say that Christ is NOT God? if you can,.maybe something that any of the apostles wrote that Christ is not God? and that he is a human incarnate of an Archangel?
vs such verses…(courtesy of Scripture Catholic)
John 1:1 - John writes, “the Word was God.” This is clear evidence of Jesus Christ’s divinity. (Note: in the Jehovah’s bible, the passage was changed to “Word was a god.” This is not only an embarrassing attempt to deny the obvious divinity of Christ, but it also violates the first commandment and Isaiah 43:10 because it acknowledges that there is more than one God).
John 1:2-3 - He (the Word) was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him (the Word who was God).
John 1:14 - the Word (who is God) became flesh (Jesus) and dwelled among us, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 - the Greek word for “only-begotten” is “monogenes” which means unique, only member of a kind. It does not mean created.
John 1:51 - the angels of God - Matt. 13:41 - Son of Man’s angels; 2 Thess. 1:7 - Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His angels.
John 3:5 - Jesus says without baptism one cannot enter into the Kingdom of God - Col. 1:13 - Paul says this is Jesus’ Kingdom.
John 6:68-69 - Peter confesses that Jesus is the Son of God who has the words of eternal life.
Acts 2:36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ - Acts 4:24 - Sovereign Lord who made heaven and earth. This means Jesus is God.
Acts 3:15 - Peter said the men of Israel “killed the Author of Life.” This can only be God - Acts 14:15 - who made all things.
Acts 20:28 - to care for the Church of God which He obtained with His own blood. This means God shed His blood. When? When He died on the cross. This means Jesus is God.
Rom. 1:1 - Paul is an apostle of the Gospel of God - Rom. 15:19 - Paul preached the Gospel of Christ.
Rom. 7:22 - Paul says he delights in the law of God - Gal. 6:2 - Paul says fulfill the law of Christ.
Rom. 8:9 - Paul refers to both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ.
Rom. 9:5 - Jesus Christ is God over all, blessed forever.
Rom. 11:36 - God for from Him through Him and to Him are all things - Heb. 2:10 - Jesus for whom and by whom are all things.
1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.
Gal. 1:5 - God the Father to whom be the glory forever - 2 Peter 3:18 - to Jesus Christ be the glory both now and forever.
Phil. 2:6-7 - Jesus was in the form of God, but instead of asserting His equality with God, emptied Himself for us.
Col. 1:15 - Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the “firstborn” of all creation. The Greek word for “first-born” is “prototokos” which means eternal preexistence (it never means created).
Col. 2:9 - in Jesus Christ the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily. He is the whole and entire fullness of the indivisible God in the flesh.
Titus 1:3-4 - God our Savior = Christ our Savior = Jesus Christ is God.
Titus 2:11 - the grace of God that has appeared to save all men - Acts 15:11 - through the grace of Jesus we have salvation.
Titus 2:13 - we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:4 - 3:6 - great God and Savior Jesus Christ = God our Savior = Jesus Christ our Savior = Jesus is God.
Heb. 1:6 - when God brings His first-born into the world, let all the angels of God worship Him. Only God is worshiped.
Heb. 1:8 - God calls the Son “God.” But of the Son He says, “Thy Throne Oh God is forever and ever.”
Heb. 1:9 - God calls the Son “God.” “Therefore, God, Thy God has anointed Thee.”
Heb. 1:10 - God calls the Son “Lord.” “And thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning and the heavens are your work.”
Heb. 13:12 - Paul says Jesus sanctifies the people with His blood - 1 Thess. 5:23 - the God of peace sanctifies the people.
2 Peter 1:1 - to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:20 - “that we may know Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.”
Jude 4 - Jude calls Jesus Christ our only Master and Lord. Our only Master and Lord is God Himself.
Rev. 2:8 - the angel of the church in Smyrna wrote, “The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life.” See Isa. 44:6.
A
adstrinity
Guest
…Or, “Baptize in the names of the Father, Son, & HS”, for that matter?
J
JeanneH
Guest
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
Not one person that wrote their Bible know one word of Greek
J
JeanneH
Guest
We need to remember that all of reslight’s posts are just his/her opinion and should be read as such.
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T_More
Guest
Agreed.We need to remember that all of reslight’s posts are just his/her opinion and should be read as such.
Reslight, are you a Russellite?
B
Bill_Pick
Guest
What Bible does he/she read ?
- Status