Jehovah's Witnesses

[T_More]

No, that was Ray Franz who authored the book we speak of. Ray was Fred’s nephew.
Both were on the Governing Body.
Fred never rejected His bible translation or anything WTS.

Sadly, this is true. Franz has never broken free from the WTS’ doctrines and taken a “next step.” He seems like a good man, but the WTS has a way of making it’s former members feel that after they leave (or removed), truth can never be found. Many of them become agnostic. Very sad. I thank God every day that I never succumbed to that.

 

[Vasian]

Sadly, this is true.

“Was” true. Fred Franz past away in 1992.

Franz has never broken free from the WTS’ doctrines and taken a “next step.” He seems like a good man, but the WTS has a way of making it’s former members feel that after they leave (or removed), truth can never be found. Many of them become agnostic. Very sad. I thank God every day that I never succumbed to that.

I believe you’re mixing up the two men.
Ray Franz the author of “Crisis of Conscience” surely has rejected the WTS.

“I had spent nearly forty years as a full time representative, serving at every level of the organizational structure. The last fifteen years I had spent at the international headquarters, and the final nine of those as a member of the worldwide Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It was those final years that were the crucial period for me. Illusions there met up with reality. I have since come to appreciate the rightness of a quotation I recently read, one made by a statesman, now dead, who said: ‘The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth—persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.’ I now began to realize how large a measure of what I had based my entire adult life course on was just that, a myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic” Ray Franz

 

[Fidei]

Gosh, i wish there was someone out there generous enough to donate this book for me to convert an entire family of witnesses.

Hearing your feedbacks about this book (CoC) alone would want me to steal one! lol.

 

[T_More]

“Was” true. Fred Franz past away in 1992.

I believe you’re mixing up the two men.
Ray Franz the author of “Crisis of Conscience” surely has rejected the WTS.

“I had spent nearly forty years as a full time representative, serving at every level of the organizational structure. The last fifteen years I had spent at the international headquarters, and the final nine of those as a member of the worldwide Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It was those final years that were the crucial period for me. Illusions there met up with reality. I have since come to appreciate the rightness of a quotation I recently read, one made by a statesman, now dead, who said: ‘The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth—persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.’ I now began to realize how large a measure of what I had based my entire adult life course on was just that, a myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic” Ray Franz

I was in fact referring to Ray Franz. I believe he is still alive.

 

[raqrodriguez]

Gosh, i wish there was someone out there generous enough to donate this book for me to convert an entire family of witnesses.

Hearing your feedbacks about this book (CoC) alone would want me to steal one! lol.

I am going to buy this book and mail it to me ex fiance who is a witness lol

 

[Javl]

Thanks very much for the information. Rumors always get twisted in some way, I’m glad you cleared that one up ( for me at least ).

And for you, T More, I praise the Lord and thank God that you did find your way out and are coming home. I will pray for you and God Bless.

God Bless you all. Thanks again.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Cides28]

gosh, i wish there was someone out there generous enough to donate this book for me to convert an entire family of witnesses.:d

hearing your feedbacks about this book (coc) alone would want me to steal one! Lol.

ebay!!! =)

 

[Vasian]

I was in fact referring to Ray Franz. I believe he is still alive.

Sorry, then I do not understand your statement here: "Franz has never broken free from the WTS’ doctrines and taken a “next step.”

Ray Franz has written two books ,and they are not in favor of, or in defense of the WTS.

Can you explain?

Thanks:thumbsup:

 

[T_More]

I believe Ray Franz still clings to WTS theology, if I’m not mistaken. While he may not agree with how the organization functions, doesn’t he still believe, in large part, in what they teach? That’s what I meant by “taking a next step.” You, I and many, many others have reached out for something more, beyond the WTS theology, but I get the impression that Franz’ is “stuck” in their teachings, which to some degree or another, has affected all of us.

 

[T_More]

Thanks very much for the information. Rumors always get twisted in some way, I’m glad you cleared that one up ( for me at least ).

And for you, T More, I praise the Lord and thank God that you did find your way out and are coming home. I will pray for you and God Bless.

God Bless you all. Thanks again.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Thanks Javl!

 

[Vasian]

I believe Ray Franz still clings to WTS theology, if I’m not mistaken. While he may not agree with how the organization functions, doesn’t he still believe, in large part, in what they teach? That’s what I meant by “taking a next step.” You, I and many, many others have reached out for something more, beyond the WTS theology, but I get the impression that Franz’ is “stuck” in their teachings, which to some degree or another, has affected all of us.

Ah… I understand what you mean now.

That I’m not sure of. I know many ex witnesses that will never accept the trinitarian doctrine. Perhaps he is one of these but I do not know. Or, perhaps he does not believe in a literal hell.

I doubt he has become a Catholic

 

[T_More]

I doubt he has become a Catholic

Definitely not. I know some that are still in contact with him.

 

[Javl]

Vasian and T More:

I assume that you both have accepted the Trinity. Might I ask what convinced you of the Trinity’s existence?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[T_More]

Vasian and T More:

I assume that you both have accepted the Trinity. Might I ask what convinced you of the Trinity’s existence?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

For me, one of the biggie’s was John 20:28. I don’t know how any Unitarian can explain that verse as anything else than what it says. John 1 is an obvious, but to a JW, they have the only correct bible, so it’s like talking to a wall when discussing that verse. Most JW’s have never seen the WTS Interlinear, and how that cleary shows the butchering of the Greek language.

I don’t know if this against forum rules or not, but here is a link showing scans of the WTS Interlinear so you can see for yourself. I have this Interlinear, so yes, these scans are authentic.

mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/kit.html

 

[Javl]

For me, one of the biggie’s was John 20:28. I don’t know how any Unitarian can explain that verse as anything else than what it says. John 1 is an obvious, but to a JW, they have the only correct bible, so it’s like talking to a wall when discussing that verse. Most JW’s have never seen the WTS Interlinear, and how that cleary shows the butchering of the Greek language.

I don’t know if this against forum rules or not, but here is a link showing scans of the WTS Interlinear so you can see for yourself. I have this Interlinear, so yes, these scans are authentic.

mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/kit.html

Thanks for your answer. I have used John 20:28 to support Christ’s being God, but I get many weak excuses as to what it means. Thomas was a devout Jew, and any other expression assigned to what he said would have been considered blasphemy and a violation of the first and second commandments. This always makes them think.

Also, I have and used the WTS interlinear to explain the “I AM”. What little Greek I know and can read I use to explain this. A direct translation of ego eimi is I ( ego ) AM ( eimi ). How they get other than that is sheer deception and falsity.

Again I thank God and praise Him for freeing you from their clutches. Now if we can only help the rest to see God’s truth.

God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Fidei]

I suddenly am confused, I read in their book “what does the Bible really teach” they say “some religions teach that Christ is merely a prophet, some say he is just a good man, yet some believe that he is God and should be worshiped. Should he?”

Does this say that JW’s dont worship Christ? Because reminding myself from the last bible study we had with my JW friend, they say they DO worship Christ! because as i recall, they (in the NWT) changed worship to obeisance and honor! yet even my friend’s father who is an elder says they do worship him! What is really the current position of the JW’s regarding Christian worship?

Knowing that to worship Christ is to acknowledge his divinity, can come in handy with my apologetics. but i cant do that if my friend believe that the WTS do believe Christ is Worshipped.

 

[T_More]

I suddenly am confused, I read in their book “what does the Bible really teach” they say “some religions teach that Christ is merely a prophet, some say he is just a good man, yet some believe that he is God and should be worshiped. Should he?”

Does this say that JW’s dont worship Christ? Because reminding myself from the last bible study we had with my JW friend, they say they DO worship Christ! because as i recall, they (in the NWT) changed worship to obeisance and honor! yet even my friend’s father who is an elder says they do worship him! What is really the current position of the JW’s regarding Christian worship?

Knowing that to worship Christ is to acknowledge his divinity, can come in handy with my apologetics. but i cant do that if my friend believe that the WTS do believe Christ is Worshipped.

In the beginning, Russell did teach that Christ should be worshipped. But this later changed when the New World Translation bible they publish came out. This link may help.

jwfacts.com/watchtower/worship-jesus.php

 

[InSearchofGrace]

To the JWs and ex-JWs following this thread: How do you worship Jehovah? I don’t mean in private prayer, but public worship. Do you have the equivalent to the Catholic Sunday Mass and Protestant Sunday Service? Are all your Kingdom Hall meetings just sales and training oriented?

My next question: Is your idea of “making disciples of all nations” mostly going door to door to mostly already evangelized neighbors? Why not evangelize in China, for example, where restrictions on religious freedom are now loosened, or try harder in gaining members in Russia and Africa? Is it because it’s easier to target lapsed Catholics and disaffected Protestants near your home and work of place?

 

[Javl]

To the JWs and ex-JWs following this thread: How do you worship Jehovah? I don’t mean in private prayer, but public worship. Do you have the equivalent to the Catholic Sunday Mass and Protestant Sunday Service? Are all your Kingdom Hall meetings just sales and training oriented?

My next question: Is your idea of “making disciples of all nations” mostly going door to door to mostly already evangelized neighbors? Why not evangelize in China, for example, where restrictions on religious freedom are now loosened, or try harder in gaining members in Russia and Africa? Is it because it’s easier to target lapsed Catholics and disaffected Protestants near your home and work of place?

Putting my :twocents: in, the “services” I attended were, as you say, sales and training oriented. Sometimes they would sing a “hymn”, but nothing recognizeable by mainline Christians.

The main purpose of a JW is to go door to door, working for their “salvation” and also to place as many Watchtower publications in homes as is possible. ( this is another story ).
They do have daily, weekly, and monthly quotas to meet and must keep careful and accurate records of their activities. If there is any sort of failure, the member may be berated, scolded, chastised, or the ultimate dis-felloshipped ( similar to being condemmed to hell ). Of course any current JW will tell you that all this is not so, but any ex-JW will tell you that it is.

Also, believe it or not, JWs are banned in China and Russia and in some countries in Africa ( mostly Muslim areas ).

Another thing, there are many splinter groups that broke off from the original organization ( Watchtower Bible and Tract Society ) such as the Dawn Bible Students, Millenial Dawnites, etc. all follow the same course but anathemize each other.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[raqrodriguez]

Putting my :twocents: in, the “services” I attended were, as you say, sales and training oriented. Sometimes they would sing a “hymn”, but nothing recognizeable by mainline Christians.

The main purpose of a JW is to go door to door, working for their “salvation” and also to place as many Watchtower publications in homes as is possible. ( this is another story ).
They do have daily, weekly, and monthly quotas to meet and must keep careful and accurate records of their activities. If there is any sort of failure, the member may be berated, scolded, chastised, or the ultimate dis-felloshipped ( similar to being condemmed to hell ). Of course any current JW will tell you that all this is not so, but any ex-JW will tell you that it is.

Also, believe it or not, JWs are banned in China and Russia and in some countries in Africa ( mostly Muslim areas ).

Another thing, there are many splinter groups that broke off from the original organization ( Watchtower Bible and Tract Society ) such as the Dawn Bible Students, Millenial Dawnites, etc. all follow the same course but anathemize each other.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I attended one of their “meetings” and it was just reading from the watchtower and answering little questions at the bottom of the pamphlet. They sang a couple of songs, all with the same music, or so it seemed to me nothing like the joyful choir i am blessed to listen to each Sunday. I walked out of there feeling like they were a very nice bunch of people, very polite, but that it was more like a study and not much praying, singing or giving thanks to God for our blessings. Most of the “service” was reading from a pamphlet and nothing like the wonderful Homilies I get to enjoy at mass. It felt very robotic and not very uplifting at all.

And is it just me or are JWs extremely negative? I mean I believe we must all be prepared for the return of Jesus but they make it seem like it’s just so horrible. I read Revelations and oh boy i feel sorry for those who do not accept God and Jesus but I am looking forward to the new heaven and earth. I joyfully anticipate the return of our Savior because I know the bad things of this world will be gone and we will be reunited with our Heavenly father. AMEN!

And the whole not celebrating holidays thing? I see it this way, there is no limit to how I thank the Lord for my blessings whether its prayer, song, living as a God wants me to, or celebrating. I celebrate birthdays because I am thankful that God gave me life, I celebrate Christmas because why not celebrate the birth OF OUR SAVIOR (um hello!?!?) I celebrate Easter because Jesus died and resurrected for US (um hello part 2!) I celebrate All Saints Day because we should remember those who died in God’s friendship and should strive to live like they did.

And the voting? Jesus said for everything you didnt do for them, you didnt do for me. Standing up for the moral rights of your brothers and sisters is part of the CHRISTIAN way.

And the whole Jesus was Impaled to a torture stake thing? Their bible is erroneously translated anyway so that is all there is to say on that matter.

How sad that so many are being misled and just being trained to be a part of a huge “pyramid scheme”.