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Nicea325
Guest
James White? You got to be JOKING! John Calvin brought Christians back to Jesus? Exactly how? All of Protestanism is man’-made religion and the facts of history can confirm it.
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Javl
Guest
Sorry to say, but Calvin brought in more of a religious dictatorship and heresy rather than bring Christians back to Jesus. Read the unpurgated and unbiased history of Calvin and his movement to find out.
And, you call Arminarianism, Roman Catholicism, and Eastern Orthodoxy as man’s religions. Might I ask, then, wasn’t Calvinism a man made religion?
Also, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy ( although in schism ) are NOT
man made religions. They have their foundation or basis in scripture ( Matt 16:16-19 ) whether or not you agree.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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dj_dave
Guest
[SIGN]Javl–The main purpose of a JW is to go door to door, working for their “salvation” and also to place as many Watchtower publications in homes as is possible. ( this is another story ).
They do have daily, weekly, and monthly quotas to meet and must keep careful and accurate records of their activities. If there is any sort of failure, the member may be berated, scolded, chastised, or the ultimate dis-felloshipped ( similar to being condemmed to hell ). Of course any current JW will tell you that all this is not so, but any ex-JW will tell you that it is[/SIGN].
If any of you believe this you are most to be pitied.
(Matthew 12:34-37) 34* Offspring of vipers, how can YOU speak good things, when YOU are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things, whereas the wicked man out of his wicked treasure sends out wicked things. 36 I tell YOU that every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account on Judgment Day; 37 for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned.”concerning it*
They do have daily, weekly, and monthly quotas to meet and must keep careful and accurate records of their activities. If there is any sort of failure, the member may be berated, scolded, chastised, or the ultimate dis-felloshipped ( similar to being condemmed to hell ). Of course any current JW will tell you that all this is not so, but any ex-JW will tell you that it is[/SIGN].
If any of you believe this you are most to be pitied.
(Matthew 12:34-37) 34* Offspring of vipers, how can YOU speak good things, when YOU are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things, whereas the wicked man out of his wicked treasure sends out wicked things. 36 I tell YOU that every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account on Judgment Day; 37 for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned.”concerning it*
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mackbrislawn
Guest
Jehovah’s Witnesses are to Protestantism as Protestantism is to Catholicism. That is, JW’s have to be as negative as possible about “Christendom” in order to justify their break from it. Just as Protestants have to be negative about Catholicism to justify their break from it.
That’s why JW’s have to invent ways where Christendom is wrong, such as voting, Jesus didn’t die on a cross, but was impaled on a torture stake, we shouldn’t celebrate birthdays, use of the word “Jehovah,” etc. Protestants do the same thing in regard to Catholicism…they are continually trying to find things wrong with it, even when it starts to get ridiculous (such as the crucifix means Catholics think Jesus is still on the cross!).
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mackbrislawn
Guest
One of Jehovah’s Witnesses I was talking to once criticized “Christendom” for being so fragmented into many denominations. I asked her if JW’s had splinter groups and she said no, and vehemently denied it.
Well, the above quote from Javl shows otherwise. Now, I don’t know if she was lying, she had been lied to, or she was talking through her hat, In either case, it doesn’t speak well for her credence!
J
Javl
Guest
Of course they will deny it. They will deny anything that is the truth about them. The Watchtower has a very tight grip on them. Anything said against them is anathema.
J
Javl
Guest
** I repeat:** * Of course any current JW will tell you that all this is not so, but any ex-JW will tell you that it is.*
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oldsinnner
Guest
Jehovah’s Witness believe that Jesus was the Archangel Michael.I made this thread for discussions to refute their claims. For a year running, we (me and my friend) have this occasional debates and i’d need all the help i can get here.
/thread over
zip it up, mark it closed
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yellowbird
Guest
This is, for the most part - not true.
JWs do have to report their hours every month. But it’s a monthly expectation - not a daily one. And it’s not really a quota… it’s more like a personal goal. True, they are given pep talks & encouraged to increase their hours but their motives are sincere. They truly believe they, and only they, have a lifesaving message. They believe they have the “truth” and want to share that truth with whomever will listen, and since Armegeddon is coming soon, time is running out.
If members fail to report service hours month after month, they are labled “inactive” which is not a disfellowshipable offense. They wouldn’t be publically scoled or chastised, but their JW brothers & sisters might consider them bad assocaition or at the very least, spiritually weak.
The JWs doctrine is completly false and in their brief history their leaders have made so many false prophecies it’s enough to make your head spin. I think it’s best to discuss and debate those things rather than the motives of JWs individually. I have always found them to be kind, sincere, honest, good people who are trying their very best to serve God. The tragedy is that everything they’ve been taught about God is wrong.
I pray for them often.
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Fidei
Guest
Hello people! Im back with another headache lol
Give as much biblical reference to Hell as you can!, as it heading my way in my “study” with my JW friend.
also include scriptural evidence why all good Christians go to heaven (not just the 144,000).
I’m also very much interested in hearing from a former JW say about what changed their mind regarding this belief
Thanks! Godbless
Give as much biblical reference to Hell as you can!, as it heading my way in my “study” with my JW friend.
also include scriptural evidence why all good Christians go to heaven (not just the 144,000).
I’m also very much interested in hearing from a former JW say about what changed their mind regarding this belief
Thanks! Godbless
J
Javl
Guest
When I had studied with them the quota was true.
Again, when I was with them, it was a serious offense. I guess too many members were failing in their “duty” and the WBTS relaxed its conditions.
Yes. The members are as you say. They really have a zeal for the Lord, but are so brainwashed that any error that results in dis-fellowshipping is disastrous to them. There are many tragic stories concerning those that have been dis-fellowshipped or have left of their own accord. And, like you, I pray for them.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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Fidei
Guest
Im writing a short document about the trinity to show to my JW friend, i just have a question, what verse does the WT claim that worship should ONLY be reserved to God? i guess the verse goes like this (im sorry if it may not be accurate
) “you shall not worship any other gods for i am a jealous God” i seem to have forgotten the verse, can anyone enlighten me?
) “you shall not worship any other gods for i am a jealous God” i seem to have forgotten the verse, can anyone enlighten me?
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T_More
Guest
Fidei, keep in mind, the JW’s have really jumped through hoops to translate the NT in such a way as to deny the Trinity, so their bible and your bible will conflict when looking at key scriptures in both. Having said that, I’m not sure if there is a silver bullet scripture, but they do refer to Matt.4:10. quite a bit. Hope that helps and let me know if there is anything else I can do to help. Of course, your greatest ally is prayer.Im writing a short document about the trinity to show to my JW friend, i just have a question, what verse does the WT claim that worship should ONLY be reserved to God? i guess the verse goes like this (im sorry if it may not be accurate
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new
Guest
hi all.
I have been studying with a witnesses for nearly 8 months and had a real eye opener. Since you talk about “hoops” in translations of the NWT, and “key” scriptures, I would like to ask you this. One of the first scripture I read in the Bible was Leviticus 26;1, “You will not make idols for yourselves; you will not erect statues or cultic stones, or erect carved stones in your country, for you to worship: for I, Yahweh, am your God.”
*
How come Catholics make all those lavish churches, worship man made saints and idols of a woman?
** catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=3*
ps. and that Yahweh sounds to me allot closer to Jehovah then say, Lord, LORD, God or what ever other “title” there is.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Lets start with this. Do you have pictures of family and Friends? Have you ever talked to it. a short question such as I wish you were here or said I miss you. If so you are not really talking to the picture are you. Since we believe that all who are in heaven are Saints that meand they are alive. For As Christ said God is the God of the Living not the Dead. Next upuntill recent history there was no pictures the only way to capture a person images was statue or painting. Next the saint are part of our family we want to see them and remember them just as we do mom dad grandma and the kids ect…
Next we know that talking to those saint is possible as Christ showd us in the Transfiguration that they are alive and it is ok to talk to them. and angels have been speacking to man from the begining.
Next we do not worship the saints or the statues of them. we do ask them to Pray with us and for us to God just as I may ask you to pray for me as well remember Christ told us to pray for one another.
No as far as the whole concept of graven images goes right after god gave the commandment to Moses he had them build the Ark of the covenant on this ark wer Cheribium (angles). then when the Isrealites were being plauged with snakes he had him make a totuem of an snake to heal them. this tells us it is not the image itself that is forbidden, it is setting that in=mage as a god that is.
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Cristian_B
Guest
I’ll answer as well.
Those were special cases that are recorded in the Bible, that they are alive in Heaven. The fact that they are recorded shows that they are rare and special.
They come to represent the two witnesses (plus God), that is Moses: the Law and Elijah: the prophets. Also represents the kingdom of Heaven. Moses those that were dead and were resurrected by God and Elijah those that never saw death.
So this does not prove that all saints are alive in Heaven and that we are able to speak with them.
If you are telling me that putting clothes on a statue, putting a crown on it’s head, putting it on a throne and praying towards it isn’t classic idolatry just like the pagans did, then I do not know what idolatry is.
Also, you’re intentions while doing it are pretty irrelevant. What you do physically is important as well. You may not lust after a woman in your heart at the moment but if in the exact moment you are having sexual intercourse with a woman, even if you are thinking at strawberries you are still doing something wrong. You may think whatever you wish in your mind while doing it, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is wrong. So even if you do not accept that the statue has any powers but you bow yourself down to them, kiss their foot and pray to them, and cloth them, and put a crown on their head … then you are still doing something wrong.
So God says: ‘do not make unto thee any graven images, or any likeness of what is in the sky, or what is on the earth, or what is under the earth and do not bow down before it …’ but the Catholic Church says: ‘make unto thee graven images, likeness of the above, beneath and on the earth and bow yourself down to them …’ Clear contradiction to me. Isn’t it to you?
2 Kings 18:4
What happened when they used it the wrong way? It was destroyed.
Yes, I do.
Nah. I’m not that lonely. Are you?
Nope.
I see no sense in your allegory. We do not bow down before images of our family and pray towards them so we can communicate with them or even inform them of anything.
What proof have you got that they are actually in Heaven? It is written in my Bible that they are actually sleeping. What does your Bible say?
This taken out of context might serve, but Christ was talking about the need for a resurrection, and He was not teaching the immortal soul doctrine with this. How is God supposed to be a king over the sleeping servant? Isn’t the king supposed to wait for them to wake up to command them? Or isn’t the king supposed to at least wake them up to command them? In the same way, if He wants us to be His servants, we must be conscious, and not in the grave, sleeping.
There is one difference: you see or saw your family in that photo or at least you know what they looked like; but tell me how do you know how the saints looked like?
You are erring here. In no way did Christ teach that.
Those were special cases that are recorded in the Bible, that they are alive in Heaven. The fact that they are recorded shows that they are rare and special.
They come to represent the two witnesses (plus God), that is Moses: the Law and Elijah: the prophets. Also represents the kingdom of Heaven. Moses those that were dead and were resurrected by God and Elijah those that never saw death.
So this does not prove that all saints are alive in Heaven and that we are able to speak with them.
No my firend, God has been speaking to man from the beginning. Angels spoke with men only when they had a message from God. They didn’t chat with men. And men didn’t chat with angles. Also, angels had to come from Heaven to speak with men. Do saints come back from Heaven just to hear you prayer?
img517.imageshack.us/img517/9360/peterd.jpg
If you are telling me that putting clothes on a statue, putting a crown on it’s head, putting it on a throne and praying towards it isn’t classic idolatry just like the pagans did, then I do not know what idolatry is.
Also, you’re intentions while doing it are pretty irrelevant. What you do physically is important as well. You may not lust after a woman in your heart at the moment but if in the exact moment you are having sexual intercourse with a woman, even if you are thinking at strawberries you are still doing something wrong. You may think whatever you wish in your mind while doing it, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is wrong. So even if you do not accept that the statue has any powers but you bow yourself down to them, kiss their foot and pray to them, and cloth them, and put a crown on their head … then you are still doing something wrong.
So God says: ‘do not make unto thee any graven images, or any likeness of what is in the sky, or what is on the earth, or what is under the earth and do not bow down before it …’ but the Catholic Church says: ‘make unto thee graven images, likeness of the above, beneath and on the earth and bow yourself down to them …’ Clear contradiction to me. Isn’t it to you?
If you are referring to the saints then you first have to show that they are actually in Heaven, and not in the grave.
Those were for decoration and weren’t used in the service. Show me were did God actually command or even let them bow down before the statues or even pray towards them.
The Israelites were never commanded or even allowed to bow down before the snake. Now let’s read Scriptures about the snake made by Moses:He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)
2 Kings 18:4
What happened when they used it the wrong way? It was destroyed.
O
oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
O
oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
]
You are erring here. In no way did Christ teach that.
Those were special cases that are recorded in the Bible, that they are alive in Heaven. The fact that they are recorded shows that they are rare and special.
They come to represent the two witnesses (plus God), that is Moses: the Law and Elijah: the prophets. Also represents the kingdom of Heaven. Moses those that were dead and were resurrected by God and Elijah those that never saw death.
So this does not prove that all saints are alive in Heaven and that we are able to speak with them.
If you are telling me that putting clothes on a statue, putting a crown on it’s head, putting it on a throne and praying towards it isn’t classic idolatry just like the pagans did, then I do not know what idolatry is
Also, you’re intentions while doing it are pretty irrelevant. What you do physically is important as well. You may not lust after a woman in your heart at the moment but if in the exact moment you are having sexual intercourse with a woman, even if you are thinking at strawberries you are still doing something wrong. You may think whatever you wish in your mind while doing it, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is wrong. So even if you do not accept that the statue has any powers but you bow yourself down to them, kiss their foot and pray to them, and cloth them, and put a crown on their head … then you are still doing something wrong.
So God says: ‘do not make unto thee any graven images, or any likeness of what is in the sky, or what is on the earth, or what is under the earth and do not bow down before it …’ but the Catholic Church says: ‘make unto thee graven images, likeness of the above, beneath and on the earth and bow yourself down to them …’ Clear contradiction to me. Isn’t it to you?
2 Kings 18:4
What happened when they used it the wrong way? It was destroyed.8 The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived. numbers 21 verse 8 and 9
You are erring here. In no way did Christ teach that.
Those were special cases that are recorded in the Bible, that they are alive in Heaven. The fact that they are recorded shows that they are rare and special.
They come to represent the two witnesses (plus God), that is Moses: the Law and Elijah: the prophets. Also represents the kingdom of Heaven. Moses those that were dead and were resurrected by God and Elijah those that never saw death.
So this does not prove that all saints are alive in Heaven and that we are able to speak with them.
No my firend, God has been speaking to man from the beginning. Angels spoke with men only when they had a message from God. They didn’t chat with men. And men didn’t chat with angles. Also, angels had to come from Heaven to speak with men. Do saints come back from Heaven just to hear you prayer?
img517.imageshack.us/img517/9360/peterd.jpg
If you are telling me that putting clothes on a statue, putting a crown on it’s head, putting it on a throne and praying towards it isn’t classic idolatry just like the pagans did, then I do not know what idolatry is
Also, you’re intentions while doing it are pretty irrelevant. What you do physically is important as well. You may not lust after a woman in your heart at the moment but if in the exact moment you are having sexual intercourse with a woman, even if you are thinking at strawberries you are still doing something wrong. You may think whatever you wish in your mind while doing it, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is wrong. So even if you do not accept that the statue has any powers but you bow yourself down to them, kiss their foot and pray to them, and cloth them, and put a crown on their head … then you are still doing something wrong.
So God says: ‘do not make unto thee any graven images, or any likeness of what is in the sky, or what is on the earth, or what is under the earth and do not bow down before it …’ but the Catholic Church says: ‘make unto thee graven images, likeness of the above, beneath and on the earth and bow yourself down to them …’ Clear contradiction to me. Isn’t it to you?
If you are referring to the saints then you first have to show that they are actually in Heaven, and not in the grave.
Those were for decoration and weren’t used in the service. Show me were did God actually command or even let them bow down before the statues or even pray towards them.
The Israelites were never commanded or even allowed to bow down before the snake. Now let’s read Scriptures about the snake made by Moses:He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)
2 Kings 18:4
What happened when they used it the wrong way? It was destroyed.8 The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived. numbers 21 verse 8 and 9
C
Cristian_B
Guest
He went on to tell them, Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up
…
So then He told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead”
John 11:11-14
If a=b and b=c then logically c=a. Lazarus is dead, Lazarus is sleeping. Therefore sleep=death.
No my friend. Veneration of a statue and adoration* of a statue* is idolatry.
You know, I find some very interesting descriptions in the book of Baruch on some practices of the Babylonians.
[bibledrb]Baruch 6:3-4[/bibledrb]
It says: gods of gold, and of silver, and of stone, and of wood borne upon the shoulders**.**
img28.imageshack.us/img28/5931/processv.jpg
Photo by Frédéric Denonne © 1996
Crowned silver statue of Our Lady of Bon-Secours carried in procession in Tournai, Belgium.
That is a statue of silver that is ‘borne upon the shoulders’.
[bibledrb]Baruch 6:5[/bibledrb]
It is written above But when you see the multitude behind, and before, adoring them, say you in your hearts: Thou oughtest to be adored, O Lord. God wants to be adored, and not a statue. Also, you should know that God didn’t give us any image of Himself. He wants us to adore Him in truth and in* spirit*. He doesn’t want a physical adoration of a statue or image. In truth by living in truth, and in spirit by being born of the spirit. He doesn’t want us to make an image of Him and adore Him/it (the image).
[bibledrb]Baruch 6:6-9[/bibledrb]
It is written above: Their gods have golden crowns upon their heads…
img23.imageshack.us/img23/9950/crownke.jpg
From the book “Miraculous Images of Our Lady”, by Joan Carroll Cruz -Copyright © 1993, TAN Books and Publishers, INC., Rockford, Illinois 61105.
Crowned statue of Mary in the Notre Dame du Cap, Cap-de-la-Madeleine, Quebec, Canada.
[bibledrb]Baruch 6:10-12[/bibledrb]
It is written above: *But when they have **covered them with a purple garment.
***I believe the image posted in my last post serves for an example:
img517.imageshack.us/img517/9360/peterd.jpg
Statue of Peter photo from “Rome in Colour” copyright by Casa Editrice Lozzi, Rome, 00165 - Via della Lungara, 5.
This seems like clothed statues to me.
[bibledrb]Baruch 6:18[/bibledrb]
img101.imageshack.us/img101/3640/proc2.jpg
Just Google it and you will find plenty more images.
Ironical, isn’t it? The Catholic Church’s own Bible describes the practices of the Church … but actually it is describing the practices of Babylon, which was an idolater nation.
One last thing: the intention matters not. If I beat my wife (don’t have one yet, but I’m giving and example) while thinking at what I saw last night on TV … that doesn’t change the fact that I’m doing something wrong. It doesn’t matter very much what you think but what you do.
NOTE: If you wish to reply, please do so in a Private Message (PM), because we are taking this thread off-topic. And I repeat: if you wish to reply please do so in a private message.- Status