Jeohvah Witnesses & the Trinity

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The “trinity” was an invention by Constantine (a pagan pope, he converted to Christianity a few days before he died), and later on by his followers, in order to keep the Church from falling apart - due to several monks who had a particular vision upon the relation between God, Jesus and “the holy spirit”. Arianism f.e.
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One hardly knows where to begin in addressing the dis-information you’ve presented here 😦 (and Constantine was never a pope of the Church of Rome - please do some reading of authentic scholars). But for brevity’s sake I’ll just note that you are off by at least one century. The oldest authoritative doctrinal formulation of the Church’s belief in the Trinity is the Apostle’s Creed, which has been employed since the 2nd Century. The belief in the Most Holy Trinity of course precedes this early “codification” by the Church. Further, the ancient baptismal formula “In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” precedes any ecclesial doctrinal legislation. In A.D. 270 (about the time Constantine was born) St. Gregory Thaumaturgus presents a full exposition on the Trinity. . .

newadvent.org/fathers/0601.htm
 
FCEGM said:
(and Constantine was never a pope of the Church of Rome - please do some reading of authentic scholars).%between%
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Thanks, FCEGM. What I was questioning was his referring to Constantine as pope Constantine. What the . . . . ?
 
Yes, technically you’re right people, the official pope was Silvestris I, I’m sorry about that :o . But because Constantine had quite an impact on the fate of our Church, and took some major descisions, he’s sometimes being refered to as “pope”. I’ve been ‘googling’ around a bit on the Internet (in which I’m not that good btw.) and I found an example of this mistake:

reformation.org/pope-constantine.html

As for the Trinity, I was merely refering to the Councel of Nicea’s creed “We believe…in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father, only-begotten, that is, from the substance of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, through Whom all things were made…” But indeed, it was established well before that, as you rightfully said. Just ignore those posts of mine. I was a bit too quick, sorry guys!

As for what I said about Jehowah’s Witnesses, IMHO, I don’t think I was wrong there.
 
No problem, PR. I screw up pretty often myself. As for what you’ve said about JWs, I think you’re right. My grandparents are a part of the Watchtower Society, and what you said is pretty much in line w/what they believe.

Cheers!

By the way: Just out of curiosity, do you belong to a particular denomination? I’ve been trying to figure you out from your posts (on this thread), and you’ve quite successfully eluded me. 😃
 
Pious Redeemer:
Yes, technically you’re right people, the official pope was Silvestris I, I’m sorry about that :o . But because Constantine had quite an impact on the fate of our Church, and took some major descisions, he’s sometimes being refered to as “pope”. I’ve been ‘googling’ around a bit on the Internet (in which I’m not that good btw.) and I found an example of this mistake:

reformation.org/pope-constantine.html

As for the Trinity, I was merely refering to the Councel of Nicea’s creed “We believe…in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father, only-begotten, that is, from the substance of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, through Whom all things were made…” But indeed, it was established well before that, as you rightfully said. Just ignore those posts of mine. I was a bit too quick, sorry guys!

As for what I said about Jehowah’s Witnesses, IMHO, I don’t think I was wrong there.
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This is amazing!! In your first post on this thread you breezily dismiss the central doctrine of Christianity as an invention of “Pope Constantine”. And now you say, woops! sorry about that, I picked up some bad information on the internet.

By the way, what to religion do you adhere?
 
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StJeanneDArc:
This is amazing!! In your first post on this thread you breezily dismiss the central doctrine of Christianity as an invention of “Pope Constantine”. And now you say, woops! sorry about that, I picked up some bad information on the internet.

By the way, what to religion do you adhere?
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Not to be self-righteous here, but maybe we should just let PR learn from his/her mistake? Like I said in my last post, I screw up tremendously all of the time. I’m sure PR isn’t the first person to eat their foot.

Well, okay, maybe PR didn’t just eat his/her foot . . . maybe he/she gobbled it, but still . . .
 
Perhaps next time they arrive at my door I will be a little more prepared. Eagerly awaitng. Maybe a conversion?? ha ha! 👍
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Don’t laugh or dismiss the possibility. 20 years ago, I was the jw “in training” knocking on your door. Today, I have found my way home to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Looong story. Taken in to The Church 8/02.
Be careful how you treat them. They are lost and need a good word of the REAL truth dropped on them in love.
Sure it took a few years, but here I am!! :dancing:
 
Absalom!:
No problem, PR. I screw up pretty often myself. As for what you’ve said about JWs, I think you’re right. My grandparents are a part of the Watchtower Society, and what you said is pretty much in line w/what they believe.

Cheers!

By the way: Just out of curiosity, do you belong to a particular denomination? I’ve been trying to figure you out from your posts (on this thread), and you’ve quite successfully eluded me. 😃
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Thanks for your understanding, Absolom! I’m a 32 years young male bachelor and I’ve been a Roman Catholic all my life, and I’m planning on staying one! My mother is a very Catholic woman who often goes on a pilgrimage (Lourdes, Garabandal, you name it). My dad past away in 1990.
Our situation in Belgium is very grim though: churches are empty, vocations are almost non existant anymore. Our country is being secularized more and more. My local priest, with whom I have a good, friendly contact, is very “modern” so to speak. I’m afraid he represents many priests around here. With “modern”, I actually mean it in a pejorative sense, meaning that he has his own “progressive” ideas on Church doctrine. F.e., he questions the fact of Heaven, Purgatory and Hell, especially the two last ones. He believes in an afterlife, but takes a somewhat agnostic stance to it (“agnostic” in the literal sense of “not knowing”, “no knowledge of”). Add to that that I compared the philosophy of René Girard (Catholic) with the one of Friedrich Nietzsche in my thesis. That Nietzsche can really penetrate your mind, especially when you read his excellent and beautiful German - he belongs to the best in German literature. Allthough I must say that René Girard’s theory of “mimetic desire”, the “scapegoat mechanism” and his pacifist reading of the New Testament has really given my faith an enormous boost so to speak. But sometimes, I admit it, that “modern” mentality and Nietzsche slip into my mind, making me doubt many things I believe in. I then sometimes tend to react impulsively, a habbit I should try to do something about.
I promise that, from now on, I will think twice and get my facts straight before I post on this message board ever again. May our Divine Lord assist me with that!

P.s.: I’ve read many posts in which American people say that they can go to their local priest to repent and confess their sins. When I want to do that, I have to go to the city of Antwerp - only one priest takes personal confessions in one particular church. And Antwerp has such a beautiful medieval Cathedral! Nowadays, it’s more of a tourist attraction than a church, allthough Holy Mass is still held there (but not with many attendants I must shamefully admit). In my local village (as in many, many others), personal confession isn’t being done anymore for many years! There simply isn’t anyone who wants to confess anymore. That says a lot about faith here, doesn’t it?
 
Absalom!:
Not to be self-righteous here, but maybe we should just let PR learn from his/her mistake? Like I said in my last post, I screw up tremendously all of the time. I’m sure PR isn’t the first person to eat their foot.

Well, okay, maybe PR didn’t just eat his/her foot . . . maybe he/she gobbled it, but still . . .
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I do apologize to PR and to everyone else on this board for jumping to shocked conclusions. I also hadn’t considered the possible fact that English is not his first language. Please forgive me.

Pious Redeemer, it is heartbreaking that you have to travel so far to have your confession heard. I will count my blessings at having confession available every day, one mile from my home here in Houston, Texas, USA. It seems to me that all of Europe is turning into mission territory.
 
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StJeanneDArc:
I do apologize to PR and to everyone else on this board for jumping to shocked conclusions. I also hadn’t considered the possible fact that English is not his first language. Please forgive me.

Pious Redeemer, it is heartbreaking that you have to travel so far to have your confession heard. I will count my blessings at having confession available every day, one mile from my home here in Houston, Texas, USA. It seems to me that all of Europe is turning into mission territory.
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Hey, I was just trying to be the good guy. I get pretty defensive sometimes myself . . . I just figure if somebody’s willing to admit a mistake and apologize for it you might as well. There’s a lot of folks out there who won’t apologize.

PR - keep working and praying. You’re a good person.
 
Dear ST Jeanne D’arc, don’t apologise, my posts on Constantine were complete rubbish. I have said why this sometimes occurs to me, for which I apologise.

You’re right about what you said about Europe! Except for Spain, Portugal and Italy (Vatican City that is, where our Divine Pope lives - I’ve been there when I was 17 years, during our “Italian trip” with the Latinist students in high school), it seems that central Europe could use some missionary visits. When I talk about Catholicism to some of my friends (who are baptised, but do not attend mass nor practise our faith), they laugh at me, saying that Catholicism is a hoax or an organisation with an unsatiable thirst for worldly power. I myself know about religious wars, tortures being performed by the Holy Inquisition, etc., but I’m sure our Church has learned from these past events. IMHO, our Church hasn’t performed any act of violence after WWII! (during WWII, some Catholic clergymen collaborated with Nazism, but not all of them!).

I joined this message board in order to find some support for my Catholic believe. And then again I’m sometimes being tempted by secular sources, and post silly things, I regret later on.
I have had support here, no doubt about that, allthough I’m quite surprised this support comes mainly from Americans. The only American features we get here are McDonald’s hamburgers (which are so small here, they can only satisfy the hunger of a dwarf) and soap series like “the bold and the beautiful” and “days of our lives”. Mind you, your President recently has visited Belgium, and his speech was very warm, friendly and reached out to Europe (to which Europe has responded positively).

I’m truly amazed by your faith, American friends! Keep up the good work. And don’t let secularisation take hold of your belief!
 
Absalom!:
Hey, I was just trying to be the good guy. I get pretty defensive sometimes myself . . . I just figure if somebody’s willing to admit a mistake and apologize for it you might as well. There’s a lot of folks out there who won’t apologize.

PR - keep working and praying. You’re a good person.
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Hey, dear Absolom! Thanks again for your kind words 🙂
 
A note for Pius Redeemer.
Constantine did not make Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire. That occurred under Theodosius towards the end of the century I believe.

st julie
 
Dear St. Julie, I was wrong about “pope” (in fact emperor) Constantine, but I do think that he was the first to make Christianity the state (official) religion of the Roman Empire.

“Constantine can rightfully claim the title of Great, for he turned the history of the world into a new course and made Christianity, which until then had suffered bloody persecution, the religion of the State.”

Quote taken from:

newadvent.org/cathen/04295c.htm
 
PR is right, unless every history teacher I’ve ever had and every history book I’ve ever read was wrong.
 
PR - thank you for clarifying your intent here; I hope you find this forum helpful in sustaining your faith through the challenges you face in very difficult circumstances for the Church in Western Europe. You have my prayers and the prayers of many others here as you seek to grow in fidelity to Christ and knowledge of His Church. May your fidelity be a testimony to the truth of Christ for all you meet.
 
Absalom!:
Huh??? Wha . . . ? Pope Constantine?
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Yes - a Syrian, who was Pope from 708 to 715. Not to be confused with the 11 Emperors of that name​

 
st julie:
A note for Pius Redeemer.
Constantine did not make Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire. That occurred under Theodosius towards the end of the century I believe.

st julie
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In 382 🙂​

 
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