Jeohvah Witnesses & the Trinity

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Pious Redeemer:
Dear ST Jeanne D’arc, don’t apologise, my posts on Constantine were complete rubbish. I have said why this sometimes occurs to me, for which I apologise.

You’re right about what you said about Europe! Except for Spain, Portugal and Italy (Vatican City that is, where our Divine Pope lives
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“Divine” ?​

  • I’ve been there when I was 17 years, during our “Italian trip” with the Latinist students in high school), it seems that central Europe could use some missionary visits. When I talk about Catholicism to some of my friends (who are baptised, but do not attend mass nor practise our faith), they laugh at me, saying that Catholicism is a hoax or an organisation with an unsatiable thirst for worldly power. I myself know about religious wars, tortures being performed by the Holy Inquisition, etc., but I’m sure our Church has learned from these past events. IMHO, our Church hasn’t performed any act of violence after WWII! (during WWII, some Catholic clergymen collaborated with Nazism, but not all of them!).
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## Well, there is that business in Rwanda - a lot of clergy did not come out of that at all well. The Pope even apologised for it. (I assume that what you refer to includes violence and crime by Catholics on a large scale - some people think ill of the Church because of the atrocities committed by the IRA, others mention the repression under Franco, others mention the Latin American dictatorships.)

**There has been plenty of Catholic violence since 1945 (unfortunately 😦 😦 😦 ) - and the Orthodox aren’t slow to mention wartime events in Croatia. **

Just so you know, and don’t hear these things mentioned without knowing about them. ##
I joined this message board in order to find some support for my Catholic believe. And then again I’m sometimes being tempted by secular sources, and post silly things, I regret later on.
I have had support here, no doubt about that, allthough I’m quite surprised this support comes mainly from Americans. The only American features we get here are McDonald’s hamburgers (which are so small here, they can only satisfy the hunger of a dwarf) and soap series like “the bold and the beautiful” and “days of our lives”. Mind you, your President recently has visited Belgium, and his speech was very warm, friendly and reached out to Europe (to which Europe has responded positively).

I’m truly amazed by your faith, American friends! Keep up the good work. And don’t let secularisation take hold of your belief!
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Thanks for the info, Gottle of Geer, sorry for my late reaction/response. When I said “our Church hasn’t performed any act of violence after WWII!”, you were right, I really meant to say: “… act of violence after WWII on a large scale like in the many religious wars during our Middle Ages and Renaissance days”. Unfortunately, you are right about Franco, the I.R.A., etc. But nowadays, now that our Continental European Church doesn’t pursue violence on a large scale here anymore, one might think that Catholic people living here would no longer have objections to attend Mass and follow our Churches’ moral teachings. As I have said in an above post, this is not the case. Now that our Church has apologized for some (even many) mistakes and/or violent acts in the past, now our churches are getting more and more empty. Now that all of our Western European clergymen not only teach about peace and the love for thy fellow man, but also act upon it more than ever, now our churches and cathedrals don’t attract people anymore, especially youngsters, and Priest Vocations are very low.

Perhaps our Good Lord thinks that late Roman, Medieval and Renaissance Europe was a long but “bad experiment”, one which has offended Him? Perhaps now He rightfully punishes us for what our ancestors, knowingly or not knowingly, did, by not giving more Vocations to potential clergymen and by allowing our churches to become more and more empty?

And that word “Divine”, Gottle of Geer, well, please forgive my recklessness and my passion. It was just a “token of respect” towards our pope - I know he’s not divine but mortal, as we all are 🙂
 
Tony B.:
I was hoping for some guidance on the JW’s and the Trinity. Also hoping you could shed some light on a little church history on our Trinity.

I just finished arguing with a couple at the front door. They started quoting “The Catholic Encylopedia,” dated 1967, and how there was no mention of the “Trinity” until after the 4th century. Then of course they want on to say the word Trinity does not exist in the bible.

Any guidance or help in this area would be appreciated.
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Irenaeus said the following.
  1. Thus then there is shown forth 14 One God, the Father, not made, invisible, creator of all things; above whom there is no other God, and after whom there is no other God.15 And, since God is rational, |74 therefore by (the) Word He created the things that were made;16 and God is Spirit, and by (the) Spirit He adorned all things: as also the prophet says: By the word of the Lord were the heavens established, and by his spirit all their power.17 Since then the Word establishes, that is to say, gives body 18 and grants the reality of being, and the Spirit gives order and form to the diversity of the powers; rightly and fittingly is the Word called the Son, and the Spirit the Wisdom of God. Well also does Paul His apostle say: One God, the Father, who is over all and through all and in us all.19 For *over all *is the Father; and *through all *is the Son, for through Him all things were made by the Father; and *in us all *is the Spirit, who cries Abba Father,20 and fashions man into the likeness of God.4 Now the Spirit shows forth the Word, and therefore the prophets announced the Son of God; and the Word utters the Spirit, and therefore is Himself the announcer of the prophets, and leads and draws man to the Father.
  2. This then is the order of the rule of our faith, and the foundation of the building, and the |75 stability of our conversation: God, the Father, not made, not material, invisible; one God, the creator of all things: this is the first point21 of our faith. The second point is: The Word of God, Son of God, Christ Jesus our Lord, who was manifested to the prophets according to the form of their prophesying and according to the method of the dispensation of the Father:22 through whom all things were made; who also at the end of the times, to complete and gather up23 all things, was made man among men, visible and tangible,24 in order to abolish death and show forth life and produce a community of union between God and man. And the third point is: The Holy Spirit, through whom the prophets prophesied, and the fathers learned the things of God, and the righteous were led forth into the way of righteousness; and who in the end of the times was poured out in a new way upon mankind in all the earth, renewing man unto God.
 
  1. And for this reason the baptism of our |76 regeneration proceeds through these three points: God the Father bestowing on us regeneration through His Son by the Holy Spirit. For as many as carry (in them) the Spirit of Godare led to the Word, that is to the Son; and the Son brings them to the Father; and the Father causes them to possess incorruption. Without the Spirit it is not possible to behold the Word of God, nor without the Son can any draw near to the Father: for the knowledge of the Father is the Son, and the knowledge of the Son of God is through the Holy Spirit; and, according to the good pleasure of the Father, the Son ministers and dispenses the Spirit to whomsoever the Father wills and as He wills.
  2. Hither were the prophets sent by God through the Holy Spirit; and they instructed the people and turned them to the God of their fathers, the Almighty; and they became heralds of the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, declaring that from the posterity of David His flesh should blossom forth; that after the flesh He might be the son of David, who was the son of Abraham by a long succession; but according to the spirit Son of God, pre-existing86 with the Father, begotten before all the creation of the world, and at the end of the times appearing to all the world as man, the Word of God *gathering up *in Himself all things that are in heaven and that are on earth.87
  3. Thus then the Word of God in all things hath the pre-eminence;112 for that He is true man and Wonderful Counsellor and Mighty God;113 calling men anew to fellowship with God, that by fellowship with Him we may partake of incorruption. So then He who was proclaimed by the law through Moses, and by the prophets of the Most High and Almighty God, as Son of the Father of all; He from whom all things are, He who spake with Moses----He came into Judaea, generated from God by the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary, even of her who was of the seed of David and of Abraham, Jesus the Anointed of God, |106 showing Himself to be the One who was proclaimed beforehand by the prophets.
  4. So then we must believe God in all things, for in all things God is true. Now that there was a Son of God, and that He existed not only before He appeared in the world, but also before the world was made, Moses, who was the first that prophesied,117 says in Hebrew: Baresith bara Elowin basan benuam samenthares.118 And this, translated into our language,119 is: “The Son in the beginning: God established then the heaven and the earth.” 120 This Jeremiah the prophet also testified, saying thus: *Before the morning-star I begat thee: and before the sun (is) thy name; *121 and that is, before the creation of the world; for together with the world the stars were made. And again the same says: Blessed is he who was, before he became man:122 Because, for God, the Son was (as) the beginning before the creation of the world;123 but for us (He was) then, when He |109 appeared; and before that He was not for us, who knew Him not.124 Wherefore also His disciple John, in teaching us who is the Son of God, who was with the Father before the world was made, and that all the things that were made were made by Him, says thus: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made:125 showing with certainty that the Word, who was in the beginning with the Father, and by whom all things were made, this is His Son.
 
  1. So then the Father is Lord and the Son is Lord, and the Father is God and the Son is God; for that which is begotten of God is God. And so in the substance and power of His being there is shown forth one God; but there is also according to the economy of our redemption both Son and Father. Because to created things the Father of all is invisible and unapproachable,135 therefore those who are to draw near to God must have their access to the Father through the Son. And yet more plainly and evidently does David speak concerning the Father and the Son as follows: Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: thou hast loved righteousness and hated unrighteousness: therefore God hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.136 For the Son, as being God, receives from the Father, that is, from God, the throne of the everlasting kingdom, and the oil of anointing above His fellows. The oil of anointing is the Spirit, wherewith He has been anointed; and His fellows are prophets and righteous men and apostles, and all who receive the fellowship of His kingdom, that is to say, His disciples.
  2. For this cause then is He Saviour. Now Emmanuel is, being interpreted, *With you God; *152 or as a yearning cry 153 uttered by the prophet, such as this: *With us shall be God; *according to which it is the explanation and manifestation of the good tidings proclaimed. For *Behold, *H e saith, the virgin shall conceive and shall bring forth a son;154 and He, being God, is to be with us. And, as if altogether astonished 155 at these things, he proclaims in regard to these future events that With us shall be God. |118 And yet again concerning His birth the same prophet says in another place: Before she that travailed gave birth, and before the pains of travail came on, she escaped and was delivered of a man-child.156 Thus he showed that His birth from the virgin was unforeseen and unexpected. And again the same prophet says: Unto us a son is born, and unto us a child is given;157 and his name is called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God.158
  3. He calls Him *Wonderful Counsellor, *meaning of the Father: whereby it is declared that the Father works all things together with Him; as is contained in the first book of Moses which is entitled Genesis: And God said, Let us make man after our image and likeness.159 For there is seen in this place the Father speaking to the Son, the Wonderful Counsellor of the Father. Moreover He is also our Counsellor, giving advice; not compelling as God, even though He is *Mighty God, *(as) he says; but giving advice that we should forsake ignorance and acquire knowledge, and |119 depart from error and come to the truth, and put away corruption and receive incorruption.
 
Ok, ok. I work with two JW’s.

They do not believe in Trinity. The Holy Spirit is a “life force” that, sort of, emits from God (The Father). Jesus is the first born of all creation, and is Michael the Archangel.

They have an answer for every challenge, probably a response to being challenged constantly.

For instance, I showed “Charley” where Thomas, after seeing the risen Christ, called out to Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” (Jn 21:28) Then I showed “John” the same thing.

Two answers. 1. In speaking, Thomas was refering to Jehovah God. 2. The word “God” here in this context is a title, as that given to Pharoahs and Ceasars.

There was no explanation of the discrepancy. Just a justification of thier position.

It is important to remember that they are brought up in the religion as we are in ours. It is a part of them, reinforced by several meetings per week.

Don’t think that you can change thier minds. Don’t let them justify thier heresies to you. Just respectfully disagree and show them what a good christian you are. Lead by example. Love them as Jesus instructs us.
 
  1. Wherefore again the prophet says:174 In that day I will raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen:175 that body 176 of Christ, which, as we have said before, is born of David, he plainly declares as after death rising from the dead. For the body is called a |126 tabernacle.177 For by these words he says that He who according to the flesh is of the race of David will be Christ the Son of God; and that He will die and rise again, and that He is in aspect a man, but in power God; and that He Himself will be as judge of all the world and as the only worker of righteousness and redeemer----all this the Scripture declared.
  2. That He would not send back the redeemed to the legislation of Moses----for the law was fulfilled in Christ----but would have them live 245 in newness by the Word, through faith in the Son of God and love, Isaiah declared, saying: Remember not the former things, nor bring to mind the things that were in the beginning. Behold I make new (things), which shall now spring up, and ye shall know (them). And I will make in the wilderness a way, and in the waterless place streams, to give drink to my chosen race, and to my people whom I have purchased to declare my virtues.246 Now a *wilderness *and a *waterless place *was at first the calling of the Gentiles: for the Word had not passed through |143 them, nor given them the Holy Spirit to drink; who fashioned the new *way *of godliness and righteousness, and made copious *streams *to spring forth, disseminating over the earth the Holy Spirit; even as it had been promised through the prophets, that in the end of the days He should pour out the Spirit upon the face of the earth.
  3. So that none should imagine God the Father to be other than our Creator, as the heretics imagine; (for) they despise the God who is, and make gods of that which is not; and they fashion a Father of their own above our Creator, and imagine that they have found out for themselves something greater than the truth. For all these are impious and blasphemers against their Creator and against the Father, as we have shown in the *Exposure and Overthrow of Knowledge falsely so-called. *And others again reject the coming of the Son of God and the dispensation of His incarnation, which the apostles delivered and the prophets declared beforehand, even such as should be the summing up of mankind, as we have shown you in brief: and such also are reckoned amongst those who are lacking in faith. And others receive not the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and cast away from |151 themselves the prophetic grace, watered whereby man bears the fruit of life unto God: and these are they of whom Isaiah speaks: *For they shall be, *saith he, as an oak that is stripped of leaves, and as a garden that hath no water.275 And such are in no wise serviceable to God, seeing that they cannot bear any fruit.
  4. So then in respect of the three points276 of our seal error has strayed widely from the truth. For either they reject the Father, or they accept not the Son and speak against the dispensation of His incarnation; or else they receive not the Spirit, that is, they reject prophecy. And of all such must we beware, and shun their ways, if in very truth we desire to be well-pleasing to God and to attain the redemption that is from Him.
 
Trinity

There seems to be some confusion regarding the Christian doctrine of the Trinity. Or should I say God, the one and only God, being a community in unity. If the text doesn’t get to long I will also show how this relates to the God-man Jesus of Nazareth. If the text does get long I will separate the part off about Jesus for another thread.

I will be using different sources to put this together and will footnote where appropriate. There will be references from Sacred Scripture, Church Fathers, Councils and Creeds established by the early Church.

First lets say that true knowledge of God does not begin with intellectual prowess, but with humility. When asked what is the first thing in religion, St Augustine replied, “The first, second, and third thing therein- no, all is humility.” With that lets start with a clarification of terms and begin with what I was taught and what some books say the Trinity is.

The clarification of terms seems to deal with the use of Trinity and the other equal term Triune God. For those who are not Catholic these terms for the one true God are the same. When a Catholic refers to the Triune God they are referring to the Trinity, which refers to the nature of the one true God. The Catholic who uses the term Triune God is not, I repeat**, is not** referring to God as three separate gods.

Now for a little background on how I learned about the makeup of God. There is only one true God, creator of Heaven and Earth. Ok nothing special there. Then came that God; is Father, the creator, the Son, being Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, love. This is getting a little more complicated. This is what I was told was referring to the Trinity, the makeup of God. We as Christians believe that God has revealed Himself to us as a trinity of “persons”- the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is the central doctrine of the Catholic faith. All other teachings of the Church are derived from it.

The basic Trinitarian formula about the makeup of God I learned was and is: God is one, Father is God, Son is God, and Spirit is God, co-equal, co-substantial, where one is the others are also. This kind of goes with part of the Athanasian Creed, “The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God and yet there are not three gods but one God.”

We will now delve deeper into the definition of the Trinity. First the Blessed Trinity is the greatest of all mysteries. As said before it is the central doctrine of the Christian faith. This doctrine is rooted in the first century Christians experiences of Jesus**. His life, death and resurrection revealed to them one God who exits in a relationship of three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.** As St. Paul said so eloquently in the following blessing, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” (2 Cor. 13:13) But what is the “person” thing the scholars keep talking about regarding the Triune God and what are the relationships.

To begin with we can reflect on God as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, relating among themselves. **But we must not think of person in the same sense, as we are persons. There are not three separate consciousnesses in God. There is only one being. There are not three separate intelligences or wills in the one God. When one person of the Trinity acts, the other two persons also act. Each person is distinct but does not act separately from the others. God is one, a community in unity. We relate certain actions to each person; to the Father, Creation, to the Son; redemption, and to the Holy Spirit; **sanctification. These are called the missions of each of the three persons. But even here all three act as one and are fully present in all the missions.
 
Con’t

What, then, is the difference in the three persons. The differences are in the relationships. Traditional Catholic teaching explains it this way:

**The **Father: The First Person of the Trinity is absolutely without origin. From all eternity he begets the Son, the Second Person of the Trinity. The Son proceeds from the Father. There was never a time when the Son did not proceed from the Father.
The Son: The Father’s begetting the Son is described as God knowing Himself perfectly. The Father expresses Himself perfectly to Himself, and this is the Son, the Word of God. Thus the Son is the Father’s perfect, divine expression of Himself. They are one, yet distinct.
**The Holy Spirit: The relationship of the Father and Son is a perfect relationship. The Father and Son love each other with an eternal, divine love. The love proceeds from the Father and the Son and is called the Third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son as the perfect expression of their divine love for each other. Thus the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Love between the Father and the Son, the Spirit binds them into a community of unity. **
**(This is Our Faith. By Michael Francis Pennock) **
You may also want to reference the Catechism of the Catholic Church sections 249-260.

[Since this is getting long I will continue with how this relates to Jesus of Nazareth, the man- God in a new thread entitled Trinity- Jesus Christ the God-man.]
 
Con’t

Trinity- Jesus Christ, true God and true man.
Continued from the thread, Trinity.
This may seem like a long background but I believe it is a perfect springboard for explaining the Incarnation of Jesus of Nazareth the Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, the man-God.

There is simply no doubt that the New Testament declares Jesus to be God. Even liberal Christian scholars and non-Christians will admit this. It is shown in many passages. Beginning with the Annunciation to Mary. The divine response to Mary’s question, “How can this be, since, I know not man?” was given by Gabriel through the Holy Spirit, “The Holy Spirit will come to you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you…” (Luke 1:34-35.) Luke is showing here among many other things that Jesus has no earthly father.

In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he “called God His Father. Making Himself equal with God.” When quizzed about how He has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, “Truly, truly, I say to you before Abraham, I AM”—invoking and applying to Himself the personal name of God—“I AM” or “YHWH”. Now I have read that some have said “I AM” is not the personal name of God, That it is “I AM WHO I AM”, but it is also can be translated to “I AM HE WHO IS”, “I AM WHO AM”, and “I AM”, which is all YHWH. Jesus’ audience understood exactly what He was claiming about Himself. *“So they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the Temple.” *(Jn 8:59)

At the end of John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, *“My Lord and my God!” *In the Greek: Ho kurios mou kai ho Theos mou, literally “The Lord of me and the God of me!” Now some have said the title “Lord” does not denote divinity, but is a title. They are correct in referring it to mean a title, but the need to look at the Hebrew and the Greek of both the Old and New Testaments. **“Out of respect for the holiness of God, the people of Israel do not pronounce His name. In the reading of Sacred Scripture the revealed name (YHWH) is replaced by the divine title “Lord” (in Hebrew Adonai, in Greek Kyrios). **It is under this title; Kyrios, that the divinity of Jesus is acclaimed. The New Testament uses this full sense of the title “Lord” both for the Father and Jesus who is thereby recognized as God Himself.” CCC 209

In Philippians 2:6 Paul says that Jesus *“who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God, a thing to be grasped.” *I have read that some say in these verses of Philippians 2:6-8 that the Word of God gave up His divinity to become man. But there is another interpretation that the Word of God remained God but became a bondservant by assuming flesh, i.e. becoming man. The other interpretation of the Word of God giving up His divinity seems strange and a little out of context since Paul does state “Jesus who though was in the form of God…”

**

There is also the passages which apply the title “**the First and the Last” **to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of YHWH. *“Thus say Yahweh, the king of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god.’” *(Is 44:6) This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation. (Rev 1:17, Rev 2:8 and Rev 22:12-13).

There are some that say God as a “Trinity” or Jesus as God was a Catholic “invention”. This they say occurred in 325 AD at the Council of Nicea. What these people fail to realize is that prior to Nicea those who we as Catholics call the Fathers’ of the Church (the Christian Church) where and had been defending both the Trinity and Jesus’ divinity for 200 years prior.
 
Hi there,

I had a second visit at my home with a JW, (twice before this JW came at my door, first two women and later a man came a long and I had one ‘back call’ by this JW-friend but now this man came with another brother. I guess I am a hard nut for them to crack)
I decided to debate a little with the Witness at my door. So I had a second visit by this man. I used a lot of information fromJeffery Schwehm 's website and also of Catholic Answers and I bought the book by Jason Evert called, Answering Jehova’s Witnesses.
I didn’t think I made a good defence, we went back and forward in Scripture and I felt I was leading these man nowere, but I believe in faith that I planted some seeds. We were discussing the Trinity, their favorate topic to refute.

I understand from Jeffery and Jason that it’s more (name removed by moderator)ortant to be charitble, pray for them and so plant seeds of faith in them. By being a Catholic Witness to the JW’s.
But I do need some help here, I don’t want to have a Bible-ping pong match.
How should I aproach the meetings now? (specialists please give me some tips)
I already send a few e-mails to ex-JW apologists but it’s been weeks now and I didn’t get a reply.

Please join with me to pray for these JW’s, their names are Athos and Edsel. (they are Dutch-Antilleans). I myself am Aruban but our islands speak the same language. Here in Holland the Antillean JW’s target Antilleans and Arubans and also South Americans (because we are mostly Catholic)

Yours in Christ;

André
 
My best friend from high school converted to JH about 5 years ago. She and I now live 2,000 miles apart and correspond more or less regularly. She too has used references to the 1967 Catholic Encyclopedia to “prove” that the Catholic Church has “changed” it’s teaching concerning the Trinity. Months ago on this forum other members advised me that I could possibly find the 1967 edition at a university library. However, I live in the boonies and am not near any large metropolitan area with a university that is likely to have a set. So, in my last letter to my friend, I asked her to provide copies of the pages she quoted. I have not heard from her in three months, and am afraid that her Kingdom Hall has advised her to no longer correspond with me. However, I am still hopeful that she will respond eventually.

So in summary, if you live near a good sized university, calling the university library to see if they have the 1967 edition is an option. Alternatively, the the burden of proof is on the JWs to produce the source that they are quoting.

Prayers are with you.
 
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