Jesuit superior general: ‘We have formed symbolic figures such as the devil to express evil’

[Roseeurekacross]

I think the error in translation here is in how this is being reported, and how English speakers on CAF are reading it. Nowhere does the interview indicate the Jesuit Priest does not believe in the devil. Is the Priest making a statement about humanising evil? Social conditioning and evil? What exactly is he saying?

I have just completed one Jesuit retreat, with another Mission later this year. I can assure you, the Catechism of satan , and the potential influence of satan to derail retreats was a crucial theme to the individual’s suucess.

 

[buffalo]

**II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS **
391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”.267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268
392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably *rejected *God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is “a liar and the father of lies”.271
393 It is the *irrevocable *character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272
394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning”, who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.273 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.
395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275

 

[buffalo]

Ask an exorcist.

 

[USMC_Convert]

I think the error in translation here is in how this is being reported, and how English speakers on CAF are reading it. Nowhere does the interview indicate the Jesuit Priest does not believe in the devil. Is the Priest making a statement about humanising evil? Social conditioning and evil? What exactly is he saying?

I have just completed one Jesuit retreat, with another Mission later this year. I can assure you, the Catechism of satan , and the potential influence of satan to derail retreats was a crucial theme to the individual’s suucess.

I certainly hope you are right. My last run in with a Jesuit still leaves tingles up and down my spine for their order. When I talked to my priest about it he explained that a lot of Jesuits are simply too academic and tend to think to much and feel to little.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

I certainly hope you are right. My last run in with a Jesuit still leaves tingles up and down my spine for their order. When I talked to my priest about it he explained that a lot of Jesuits are simply too academic and tend to think to much and feel to little.

They are well educated. That’s certainly not a bad thing. Even being so well educated , Pope Francis is a Pastoral Pope, known as the Bishop of the Slums.

I have a list here, given by the Jesuit leader of the retreat. Its a table , one side coming from good’ , the other side 'coming from bad '. To do specifically with influences of good and evil and how to recognise them . Its a Jesuit document .

 

[sko]

I think the error in translation here is in how this is being reported, and how English speakers on CAF are reading it. Nowhere does the interview indicate the Jesuit Priest does not believe in the devil. Is the Priest making a statement about humanising evil? Social conditioning and evil? What exactly is he saying?

I have just completed one Jesuit retreat, with another Mission later this year. I can assure you, the Catechism of satan , and the potential influence of satan to derail retreats was a crucial theme to the individual’s suucess.

Purely an objective observation: he said (at least in the original Spanish text) “hemos hecho figuras simbólicas”. Hemos is first person plural of haber, “to have” and is used with hecho, the past participle of hacer, “to do, to make”, to form the perfect: “we have made”. “Figuras simbólicas” needs no explanation, I presume. Perhaps someone with deeper knowledge of Spanish might shed some light on other interpretations of this phrase other than the literal one.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Am I leaving the faith, or is it leaving me…

 

[commenter]

I think the error in translation here is in how this is being reported, and how English speakers on CAF are reading it. Nowhere does the interview indicate the Jesuit Priest does not believe in the devil. Is the Priest making a statement about humanising evil? Social conditioning and evil? What exactly is he saying?

I have just completed one Jesuit retreat, with another Mission later this year. I can assure you, the Catechism of satan , and the potential influence of satan to derail retreats was a crucial theme to the individual’s suucess.

At best, one might say he is being ambiguous, making a statement that is open to **possible **interpretation as **perhaps **compatible with orthodox teaching. But why the ambiguity on a subject where there is rampant confusion and disbelief? The role of the Church should be to clarify what is confused, to remind about that which is forgotten, to proclaim those truths that are least popular in the **current **culture.

There was a time when Catholics, and others, were very much aware of the reality of Satan as a supernatural force who could influence nations and individuals; but they underestimated other things. This is not the era we live in now.

I agree some individual Jesuits are solidly orthodox. I am glad for your successful retreat, wish for the best for your upcoming Mission.

 

[ARSpade]

Sadly, the Jesuits are shrinking badly.

I don’t find it that sad, based on things like this interview.

 

[metalbot]

There was a time when Catholics, and others, were very much aware of the reality of Satan as a supernatural force who could influence nations and individuals; but they underestimated other things. This is not the era we live in now.

Whether you consider Satan to be a supernatural force or a natural symbolic representation of evil, how would that change anything about the way that we as Catholics behave or relate to God?

My Catholicism has everything to do with my relationship with God and how that relationship affects the way I interact with the world. I don’t see how the details of whether evil has a supernatural root or not are relevant to that.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

At best, one might say he is being ambiguous, making a statement that is open to **possible **interpretation as **perhaps **compatible with orthodox teaching. But why the ambiguity on a subject where there is rampant confusion and disbelief? The role of the Church should be to clarify what is confused, to remind about that which is forgotten, to proclaim those truths that are least popular in the **current **culture.

There was a time when Catholics, and others, were very much aware of the reality of Satan as a supernatural force who could influence nations and individuals; but they underestimated other things. This is not the era we live in now.

I agree some individual Jesuits are solidly orthodox. I am glad for your successful retreat, wish for the best for your upcoming Mission.

Thankyou Commenter. Yep in the first half hour we established that we all believed in the existence of satan

 

[commenter]

Originally Posted by commenter
Sadly, the Jesuits are shrinking badly.

I don’t find it that sad, based on things like this interview.

OK, you probably are right. I feel “sad” because of the tremendous achievements of the order in the past - missionaries, educators, pastors, spiritual directors, etc - and the continuing witness of many faithful Jesuits in the present, some of whom I know. But the order as a whole, the current leadership, seems to have been deeply influenced by the popular culture. They loudly proclaim truths that are already well known and accepted in the West in 2017, and are silent or ambiguous on truths that are unfamiliar to most people now.

I would be curious if Fr. Pacwa, Fr. Spitzer, or the faithful Jesuits I know would encourage a young man with a vocation to pursue the Jesuits at this time, as compared to encouraging some other community.

I don’t think the Jesuits ever had a “reform” movement, such as happened with the Franciscans. For instance, the Capuchins broke off a few hundred years ago, then a few decades ago Fr. Benedict Groeschel broke off from the Capuchins - but all remaining Franciscans. It seems that the conservative minority that gets outvoted in province after province, and university after university, might have sought Vatican approval to form their own religious order, and then identified a few still somewhat orthodox Jesuit institutions that they might concentrate their numbers in, try to seek employment for many orthodox Jesuits there.

 

[ARSpade]

Whether you consider Satan to be a supernatural force or a natural symbolic representation of evil, how would that change anything about the way that we as Catholics behave or relate to God?

My Catholicism has everything to do with my relationship with God and how that relationship affects the way I interact with the world. I don’t see how the details of whether evil has a supernatural root or not are relevant to that.

It would change how you relate to God because you’d be saying that God lied when he said that Satan was an actual supernatural force and being.

 

[buffalo]

We’ve said it before, but here it is again: If you ever let Satan on the bus, he will wind up driving the bus.
Does the real Catholic Church worship God, or itself? Is it a distinct religion, or is it a “Blend”? Is Truth Himself unchangeable, or malleable?

 

[Dorothy]

Whether you consider Satan to be a supernatural force or a natural symbolic representation of evil, how would that change anything about the way that we as Catholics behave or relate to God?

My Catholicism has everything to do with my relationship with God and how that relationship affects the way I interact with the world. I don’t see how the details of whether evil has a supernatural root or not are relevant to that.

We need all the helps we get from the Church to resist the world, the flesh, and the devil.

Ephesians 6:10-12…“Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.”

It is good to know we have such enemies; and we need to ask for the graces we need to combat the enemy.

 

[philipl]

Jesus taught that the Devil is a person, and not a symbol of evil.

Along comes the Jesuit superior general of the Jesuits telling his audience that Christians have “formed” the devil as a way of expressing evil.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/06/01/jesuit-superior-general-we-have-formed-symbolic-figures-such-as-the-devil-to-express-evil/

Then we have formed God to express God?

 

[commenter]

Whether you consider Satan to be a supernatural force or a natural symbolic representation of evil, how would that change anything about the way that we as Catholics behave or relate to God?

My Catholicism has everything to do with my relationship with God and how that relationship affects the way I interact with the world. I don’t see how the details of whether evil has a supernatural root or not are relevant to that.

The Bible itself, centuries of Christian scholars, the popes and CCC all regarded realistic knowledge and understanding of Satan as relevant to the Christian believer. You pointed out the importance of how you interact with “the world”, but we also interact with “the flesh” and with “the devil”. I find myself tempted one way by “the world” and in a very different way by “the flesh”. The devil is a third way.

Of course Satan can have symbolic meanings, but if he has only symbolic meanings, one could “understand” enough about the devil by understanding the literary symbolism. If he is an actual person, with potential to influence me and others, then some kind of spiritual warfare or at least caution is needed. I would need other kinds of knowledge, respond with other kinds of strategies.

Pope Leo XIII regarded the reality of the spiritual personhood as so relevant to us, he composed a prayer that formerly was recited at all Sunday masses. I believe it should be reinstated.

 

[commenter]

Another thread was generated on this topic.

Italian exorcist to Jesuit leader: No, the devil isn’t a just ‘symbol’ [CNA]

 

[M-Dent]

Cardinal Ratzinger (prior to his elevation to the Papacy) summed up what is important for us all. Be adults in the faith! No need to condemn individuals just false ideas. And just be confident in the truth.

The first is the journey towards “the maturity of Christ”, as the Italian text says, simplifying it slightly. More precisely, in accordance with the Greek text, we should speak of the “measure of the fullness of Christ” that we are called to attain if we are to be true adults in the faith. We must not remain children in faith, in the condition of minors. And what does it mean to be children in faith? St Paul answers: it means being “tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine” (Eph 4: 14). This description is very timely!

How many winds of doctrine have we known in recent decades, how many ideological currents, how many ways of thinking. The small boat of the thought of many Christians has often been tossed about by these waves - flung from one extreme to another: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism and so forth. Every day new sects spring up, and what St Paul says about human deception and the trickery that strives to entice people into error (cf. Eph 4: 14) comes true.

Today, having a clear faith based on the Creed of the Church is often labeled as fundamentalism. Whereas relativism, that is, letting oneself be “tossed here and there, carried about by every wind of doctrine”, seems the only attitude that can cope with modern times. We are building a dictatorship of relativism that does not recognize anything as definitive and whose ultimate goal consists solely of one’s own ego and desires.

**We, however, have a different goal: the Son of God, the true man. He is the measure of true humanism. An “adult” faith is not a faith that follows the trends of fashion and the latest novelty; a mature adult faith is deeply rooted in friendship with Christ. It is this friendship that opens us up to all that is good and gives us a criterion by which to distinguish the true from the false, and deceipt from truth. **

vatican.va/gpII/documents/homily-pro-eligendo-pontifice_20050418_en.html

 

[unafraid]

Jesus taught that the Devil is a person, and not a symbol of evil.

Along comes the Jesuit superior general of the Jesuits telling his audience that Christians have “formed” the devil as a way of expressing evil.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/06/01/jesuit-superior-general-we-have-formed-symbolic-figures-such-as-the-devil-to-express-evil/

This man is refuting the very holy and sacred Word of God as articulated by His only Son , Jesus Christ, our Lord! He is a heretic and should be designated as such by the Church. These statements are a great scandal, and this man should be publicly censured by the Holy Father himself.

I have heard Pope Francis speak many times about the reality of evil and the truth regarding the existence of Satan. His views are diametrically opposed to those expressed by the Superior General of the Jesuits in this interview.