Jesuits, Orthodoxy and Fr. James Martin

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sealabeag said:
I’ve yet to find clarity either way, and haven’t found a religious order I feel attracted too, perhaps with the exception of the Jesuits.
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If you are interested, there is a new Ignatian order starting on Feast of St. Ignatius Loyola, July 31, 2021

It’s called the Society of Ignatians

societyofignatians.com

Society of Ignatians - New Traditional Order of Priests

Discover the ultra-modern yet traditional Society of Ignatians, committed to the Traditional Latin Mass and led by St. Ignatius Loyola. Pro-actively promoting Catholic conversion and creating creative Catholic minorities. Join us now!
societyofignatians.com
 
That’s his opinion and you have yours. There’s nothing immoral or against Church teaching about opining that people are born gay, or born with strong tendencies towards SSA, or whatever. God, if he wishes, is quite capable of giving people crosses in the form of tendencies from birth that they need to overcome.
 
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Yeah, I don’t get the argument that “if people are born gay, then God approves of gay sex” argument. It doesn’t logically follow. People are born with all sorts of different crosses.
 
phil19034 said:
What he says at Church conferences or writes in his books are not really the problem. It’s what he says/does on Twitter, etc. that’s mostly the issue.

On Twitter, he allows people to believe that he holds heretical views (even if it isn’t his intent). He rarely, if ever, clarifies. Instead, he is constantly poking the hornet nest and when people start going crazy on both sides, he never clarifies anything.

That’s the reason so many people (priests & bishops included) have issues with him.
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While I personally think Twitter is a useless waste of time that mostly serves to feed the impulses of people who like to get emotionally wound up every 2 minutes, Fr. Martin’s actions there are similar to that of many law professors I had who would just put a thought out there and then sit back and watch the room go crazy with argument. It’s a well-known technique to foment discussion and push envelopes. As long as Fr. Martin doesn’t cross the line and say something contrary to Church teaching, to me he’s just acting like a Jesuit - they are part of what inspired me to go to law school because of their argument and discussion techniques.

Getting back to the topic of the OP’s thread, if he doesn’t want to be around such envelope-pushing on a regular basis, and I can see where it would not be everyone’s preference, he should maybe pick another order. Hanging around Jesuits, your intellect will get a workout every day whether you agree with them or like what they’re doing or not. That can be stimulating for some and very tiring for others who would rather just pray or go dole out soup in the soup kitchen or something.
 
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To those saying that Fr. James Martin has not done or said anything wrong, and is simply ministering to those on the margins and advocating for love and respect for “lgbt” people, I’m rather amazed… I may share a collection of his errors but I don’t know if it’s worth my while really. I’ll see if I have time. If a simple layperson like me can identify his errors then surely those in authority over him can, and should, and should discipline him.
Anyway, thanks to those who’ve pitched in to answer my questions! I will definitely check out that new Ignatian order, looks very interesting! Although I like the thought of an order with roots, that doesn’t have to go through the birth pangs, if you will. I’ll have a look anyway. As for those who said the Jesuits as a whole are orthodox, and that those who are heretics are moreso those in the media, teaching theology etc., unfortunately I’d have to disagree. I live in Ireland and the Jesuit order here seems to be almost totally “liberalised” (not the right word maybe but you know what I mean.)
However perhaps in the US it’s different? Are there specific countries with a strong orthodox Jesuit presence?
Thanks!
 
Tis_Bearself said:
That’s his opinion and you have yours. There’s nothing immoral or against Church teaching about opining that people are born gay, or born with strong tendencies towards SSA, or whatever. God, if he wishes, is quite capable of giving people crosses in the form of tendencies from birth that they need to overcome.
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That’s your opinion, but the Catechism says differently CCC2357;
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

This IS NOT the same message that Father . . . Martin . . . gives, and he is also on record (promoting homosexual marriage to a chap called Brandon), saying: "I hope in ten years you will be able to kiss your partner or soon to be your husband. Why not? What’s the terrible thing?"

"The road to Hell is paved with the skulls of erring priests, with bishops as their signposts” - ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM.
 
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Uriel1 said:
That’s your opinion, but the Catechism says differently CCC2357 ;
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained . Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
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I don’t see how that’s opposed to the idea that people are born gay. At most, the church is saying “we’re not sure why some people are gay, but we are sure that homosexual acts are disordered.”

None of that is inconsistent with the idea that people’s sexuality is innate as opposed to a choice.
 
To be fair, the issue with Fr. James Martin is NOT the question of whether people are or are not born gay. That question is somewhat irrelevant. If they are, ok. If they aren’t, ok! It is a little beside the point.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
Hanging around Jesuits, your intellect will get a workout every day whether you agree with them or like what they’re doing or not.
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And this is what I love about them!!
I have become a much more knowledgeable Catholic and my relationship with God/Jesus and Church is better than it ever was. And it is all because of my exposure to Ignatian spirituality and thought, through Fr. James Martin.
 
Uriel1 said:
Ok, So show me where the magisterium has ever said publicly, or in any papal encyclical that “homosexuals are born that way”
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I’m not saying the church has said that. I’m saying the church doesn’t take a position one way or another on the cause of homosexual attraction, so if someone believes that they were “born that way”, they’re not contradicting the church. Now, if they said “I was born this way and it’s okay for me to act on these attractions” then yes, that would be contradictory.
 
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Uriel1 said:
Martin . . . gives, and he is also on record (promoting homosexual marriage to a chap called Brandon), saying: **“I hope in ten years you will be able to kiss your partner or soon to be your husband. Why not? What’s the terrible thing?”
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If Farther Martin said this, then he should be disciplined by his bishop, as this clearly stands against Catholic teaching. .
 
I am not going to ask you to like Fr. Martin. I don’t even know him.

Nor am I going to argue with you concerning the appropriateness of what he does; but you yourself have hedged whether or not he has stepped over a line; his superiors appear to not publicly admonish him, which does not mean that there has been no conversation as to where the moral line is in the Church, and whether or not he has stepped over it or has not stepped over it. Nor does their lack of public admonishment mean they have failed to do their duty.

Given that I suspect neither of us is ordained, it is not for us to pass judgement on how he ministers to the lgbqt communities unless and until he steps clearly over the line.

Prudential judgement is just that - prudential. You or I might disagree that something is not prudential, but that does not by itself indicate that the judgement is immoral or makes light of immoral matters. There are plenty of folks who belong to the school of fire, brimstone and damnation ( and I do not propose you do) and there are others who attempt to follow Christ’s pattern - for example, in not stoning the woman caught in adultery, And yes, I am well aware he said “sin no more”. But it is not my place to tell Fr. Martin he has to say that specifically in everything he says. Nor is there anything in the Gospels which says such.

People who have taken the path of fire, brimstone and damnation just possibly may find they have to make an accounting at Judgement Day for those they caused to flee from the Church and/or Christ.
 
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As an aside, bishops do not have authority directly over Jesuits. If one errs, that is the responsibility of their superior to correct.

If the bishop is unhappy about the matter, he can contact the superior; but ultimately his choice may be to disinvite the Jesuits in toto to his diocese. Other than that, it is not within his authority.
 
Everyone here should be aware of Fr. Mitch Pacwa, S.J. No better example of the original intent of the Society of Jesus. And Servant of God Fr. John Hardon†, S.J. known as the greatest dogmatic theologian of the 20th century.

As to Fr. Martin, it may be his odd way of attracting new faithful, but he seems to teach one-half of Church teaching. I have yet to hear his call to repentance.

I believe that the ancient Japanese proverb applies here:
“The nail that sticks up will be hammered down.”
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But, when the hammering comes, it will have been after repeated teaching, admonishing, counseling and finally: promises.
 
po18guy said:
Everyone here should be aware of Fr. Mitch Pacwa, S.J. No better example of the original intent of the Society of Jesus. And Servant of God Fr. John Hardon†, S.J. known as the greatest dogmatic theologian of the 20th century.
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Very true. My priest told me when Jesuits are good there’s few better. And when they’re not good, well…
 
A quick look at Fr Martin’s Twitter page shows that he has retweeted articles saying things such as:
  • Cardinal Dolan should apologise for speaking to Trump.
  • a suggestion that the US bishops don’t value the lives of African-Americans as much as others.
  • He also tweeted support a while back for Cardinal Marx’s apparent assertion that same-sex relationships can be blessed.
These posts are neither obedient nor orthodox. Other posts made by him are similar in their content.

I am sure Fr Martin means well (and I admire his desire to show people that they are loved and valued), but compromising the Truth and expressing opinions that are not in line with Church teaching (or engaging in unproductive criticism of Church leaders) does a disservice to the faithful
 
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