Jesus’ Siblings in scripture

[dochawk]

The best answer I’ve heard is that the Hebrew word for “brother/sister” is the same word for “cousin”.

This.

Next question; there is really nothing more to add (but, doubtlessly, this thread will go on for days, then veer into some kind of abuse that gets it shut down and someone warned or suspended . . .)

So I’ll toss in that Joseph was almost certainly a widower, and likely had children . . .

hawk

 

[dochawk]

There are far more books that didn’t make the New Testament–about a hundred known gospels (some of which are flat out goofy), and who knows how many epistles.

Being included in the canon primarily came down to being used in liturgy: not being selected, in and of it self, doesn’t suggest falsehood or error.

Much/most of what we know or believe about Mary comes from the Protoevangelicum of St.James ( even more in the East than West–and I don’t think there are any portrayals of atoning Joseph in the East!)

While not at the level of scripture, this book remains highly influential, and is not dismissed as “just a book”.

hawk

(Also, why was this in Traditional Catholicism? I’ve moved it)

 

[lilypadrees]

This has been discussed many times. The “brothers and sisters” of Jesus are the children of others. They are not the children of Mary and Joseph.

 

[po18guy]

I am not questioning anything. Just asking how we answer the passage i quoted

Just google Catholic sources of “Brothers and sisters of Jesus”

The parentage of those others is completely explained within the scriptures in other passages and gospels.

This is an attack on Mary, simply because the Catholic Church, Orthodox (and a few others) venerate her. The devil is prevented from touching her, so he dupes unwitting and malicious men and women into doing his calumny.

 

[JanSobieskiIII]

I generally hear the term apocrypha applied to the deuterocanonical books, not extrabiblical ones.

 

[Fauken]

Assuming the apocrypha refers to the books in the Old Testament we have that Prots do not.

No, I am not referring to the Deutrocanonical books. I’m referring to books like the Protoevangelium and the Gospel of Thomas.

 

[JanSobieskiIII]

My bad, I’ve never heard those referred to as apocrypha.

 

[Fauken]

It’s alright! I went to a talk about the canon of Scripture where they talked about the Deutrocanonicals and the Apocrypha. Compiling the Bible into what it is was not as trivial as some Protestants make it out to be.

 

[Lost4words]

I am not attacking Her. Just questiong the passage quoted so that one has an answer for it.

 

[po18guy]

You can’t attack. Only non-Catholics can, but they:

1. Lack knowledge of scripture.
2. Lack knowledge of ancient Hebrew culture and language.
3. Lack even a complete bible - having 91% of the scriptures.

Basically, when the question comes up, ask the person why they disagree with Luther, Calvin and all of the early reformers.

OK…
Ask them what the Archangel Gabriel meant when he said "You are to bear a Son (singular).
Ask where those “other children” were when Jesus remained in the temple at age 12. They only looked among their kinsfolk and neighbors - not a peep about any “other children.”
Ask them to name the “children of Mary” fromthe bible. They cannot because the bible does not mention any.
Ask them where those brothers and sisters were at the crucifixion.
Ask why Jesus gave His mother to John - even though John’s mother was there!

 

[Gorgias]

You mean the Apocrypha? If so, they’re not lost, and are not books of the Bible.

No. From the description @Seagull provides, it sounds like the Protoevangelium of James.

They are in fact books of the Bible.

Assuming the apocrypha refers to the books in the Old Testament we have that Prots do not.

It’s easy to get terms and descriptions mixed up. The books of the Deutero-canon are understood by Catholics to be canonical Scripture. Reformation denominations do not share that understanding, and they call these books the ‘Apocrypha.’

On the other hand, there are apocryphal books of the New Testament time period. The Protoevangelium of James is generally considered one of these (given that it’s not considered canonical Scripture).

If @Seagull is talking about the Protoevangelium, then I don’t know why he’s calling it a “lost book of the Bible.” It’s neither lost (it was quite popular in the early Church, and there are many manuscripts in existence!) nor Biblical.

I personally disagree that he was a widower and an old man.

Fair enough. Based on what?

 

[Erikaspirit16]

from the USCCB: http://www.usccb.org/bible/mark/6

" The brother of James…Simon: in Semitic usage, the terms “brother,” “sister” are applied not only to children of the same parents, but to nephews, nieces, cousins, half-brothers, and half-sisters; cf. Gn 14:16; 29:15; Lv 10:4. While one cannot suppose that the meaning of a Greek word should be sought in the first place from Semitic usage, the Septuagint often translates the Hebrew ’āh by the Greek word adelphos, “brother,” as in the cited passages, a fact that may argue for a similar breadth of meaning in some New Testament passages. For instance, there is no doubt that in v. 17, “brother” is used of Philip, who was actually the half-brother of Herod Antipas. On the other hand, Mark may have understood the terms literally; see also 3:31–32; Mt 12:46; 13:55–56; Lk 8:19; Jn 7:3, 5. The question of meaning here would not have arisen but for the faith of the church in Mary’s perpetual virginity."

As others have said, there are a lot of “Marys” running around. Mary Magdalen, Mary sister of Martha, Mary mother of Jesus…and if you note most of the passages, they qualify “Mary” by adding “the mother of James…” etc. It’s NEVER “Mary, the mother of James…and Jesus.”

 

[BartholomewB]

I am not questioning anything. Just asking how we answer the passage i quoted

There is no such thing as certain knowledge of the exact degree of kinship between Jesus and the people named as his “brothers” and “sisters” in the Gospels. It’s a question of the balance of probabilities. This article by Richard Bauckham (link below) examines in detail the long history of the debate. The questions that have to be addressed include seemingly abstruse details, such as whether Clopas (named in John 19:25) and Cleopas (named in Luke 24:18) are the same person or different people. The best thing you can do is read it and then weigh up all the different arguments in your own mind.
https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_relatives_bauckham.html

 

[Fauken]

No. From the description @Seagull provides, it sounds like the Protoevangelium of James .

It’s neither lost (it was quite popular in the early Church, and there are many manuscripts in existence!) nor Biblical.

Isn’t that what I said? I’m not referring to the Deutrocanonicals. It is Apocryphal.

 

[Gorgias]

Isn’t that what I said? I’m not referring to the Deutrocanonicals. It is Apocryphal.

Right. I think that was what you asserted. From your original post, though, it was difficult to see whether you meant NT Apocrypha or OT Deuterocanon…

 

[guanophore]

I always defend Jesus as having no brothers or sisters. But, how can one argue this passage:

Mark 6:3
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense[a] at him.

The rest of it has to do with a lack of understanding about tribal relations. Anyone who is too close for marriage is considered a family member.

We believe that Joseph was older than the Blessed Mother and that he was a widower.

Joseph certainly seems to be missing from this event, and is also not present at the wedding in Cana, or when these same “brothers” came to collect Jesus, thinking He had gone mad. Definitely Joseph did not survive until the crucifixion, or Jesus would not be giving her care to another.

Mary, wife of Cleophas, mother of James, Joses, Judas and Simon. Sister to Mary mother of God John 19, Mark 15

Since it seems unlikely that two girls would have the same name given by the same parents, Mary the wife of Clephas is more likely a sister of Joseph. If this is the case, her children would have grown up with Jesus like siblings.

 

[BartholomewB]

Mary the wife of Clephas is more likely a sister of Joseph.

Or alternatively that Clopas (Cleopas, Cleophas) and Joseph were brothers, who both married women named Mary. Please see Richard Bauckham’s article that I linked to in an earlier post.

 

[guanophore]

Or alternatively that Clopas (Cleopas, Cleophas) and Joseph were brothers, who both married women named Mary.

Yes, of course. But not the natural sibling of Mary, the wife of Joseph, I meant.

 

[Lost4words]

Some good points posted. Thanks

 

[HeDa]

Maria, Marie, Mary, Miriam, Maryam, Meriam, Maire, Maia, Maja and several other versions are the most popular name for a girl even today.