Jesus: 100% God and 100% Man

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sambos671 said:
My contention is is not that the spouse and bride are different but that the Church and Mary are. Mary is a member of the church not the church entire. The church does not make up the body of Mary but of Jesus Christ. That was the contention. And yes I have a problem associating a marital relationship with one person to God because it does seem to imply sexual relationship by the language used. Now if its figurative than what does that imply? Only Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit? What about the Chruch? Or is then God a Polygamist? Or is she the spouse because she is part of the body? If so then how is that any differen’t than any one of us?
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Did you read the articles I linked to? This concept is explained there.

The marital relationship is figurative. Period. That is the whole of the response to your objection. What it implies is that Mary cooperated with the Holy Spirit and joined her will with His, thus producing the Savior. This means that she is in a unique relationship with the Holy Spirit.

Your questions seem to be based on an inability to accept that ALL relationships that exist in individual members of the Church and with the Church as a whole to any aspect of the trinity are represented figuratively in human relationships.
 
Angels_Unaware said:
Did you read the articles I linked to? This concept is explained there.

The marital relationship is figurative. Period. That is the whole of the response to your objection. What it implies is that Mary cooperated with the Holy Spirit and joined her will with His, thus producing the Savior. This means that she is in a unique relationship with the Holy Spirit.

Your questions seem to be based on an inability to accept that ALL relationships that exist in individual members of the Church and with the Church as a whole to any aspect of the trinity are represented figuratively in human relationships.
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Those articles take a little time. And your second paragraph is wrong with my perspective. If your read the last part of my last post maybe you can see where I’m going with the consept. That Mary was obedient there is no doubt or that acting in faith with this regard creating a special relationship is fine but to what extent is my point. Read the flow of the questions. Hey, I can say that John 6 was figurative as well.
 
Muslim_Woman said:
http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

…PHILOSOPHY OF ANTHROPOMORPHISM

– Dr. Zakir Naik

…Many religions at some point believe, directly or indirectly, in the philosophy of anthropomorphism i.e. God becoming a human.

Their contention is that Almighty God is so pure and holy that He is unaware of the hardships, shortcomings and feelings of human beings.
institutealislam.com/concept-of-god-in-islam-by-dr.-zakir-naik/
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God didn’t become human to feel. He became human to fulfill a covenant which we were incapable of fulfilling since we are human and therefore imperfect and weak.

If you are in a boat and someone is drowning, do you reach out your hand to them, or just give them a book about swimming? God took it a step further by getting out of the boat, swimming over to us and lifting us out of the water and into the boat. Once you are in the boat, you can read the book about swimming in case you fall out. Did God get wet to know what it felt like? No, it was because we couldn’t swim close enough to take his hand.
 
sambos671 said:
Those articles take a little time. And your second paragraph is wrong with my perspective. If your read the last part of my last post maybe you can see where I’m going with the consept. That Mary was obedient there is no doubt or that acting in faith with this regard creating a special relationship is fine but to what extent is my point. Read the flow of the questions. Hey, I can say that John 6 was figurative as well.
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Well, that’s your opinion. It is not the opinion of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church claims that Mary had a special relationship with all 3 persons of the Godhead, not just 1 person of the Godhead.

Surely, you accept that Mary had a special relationship with the second person of the Trinity, in that she is the only one on earth to give birth to His human form.

It follows from that she would have a special relationship with the other Persons of the Godhead.

In any manner, this is what the Church believes. Her special relationship with the Father is Immaculately Conceived. Her special relationship with the Holy Spirit is Spouse.

You are welcome to disagree, I am simply pointing out Catholic teaching.
 
Angels_Unaware said:
Well, that’s your opinion. It is not the opinion of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church claims that Mary had a special relationship with all 3 persons of the Godhead, not just 1 person of the Godhead.

Surely, you accept that Mary had a special relationship with the second person of the Trinity, in that she is the only one on earth to give birth to His human form.

It follows from that she would have a special relationship with the other Persons of the Godhead.

In any manner, this is what the Church believes. Her special relationship with the Father is Immaculately Conceived. Her special relationship with the Holy Spirit is Spouse.

You are welcome to disagree, I am simply pointing out Catholic teaching.
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Is it taught Ex-cathedra?
 
sambos671 said:
Is it taught Ex-cathedra?
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I don’t think so. I could be wrong, though, because it is a teaching that is intimately connected to our understanding of Mary as Mediatrix of Graces.

I thought that Mediatrix of all graces was taught ex-cathedra by a recent Pope Leo.

Why don’t you research it and let us know? Along with any other objections to the teaching beyond that it demonstrates Mary had a special relationship to the Godhead.
 
Angels_Unaware said:
I don’t think so. I could be wrong, though, because it is a teaching that is intimately connected to our understanding of Mary as Mediatrix of Graces.

I thought that Mediatrix of all graces was taught ex-cathedra by a recent Pope Leo.

Why don’t you research it and let us know? Along with any other objections to the teaching beyond that it demonstrates Mary had a special relationship to the Godhead.
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Mediatrix of Graces is not an infallible teaching, as that is part of the Co-redemptrix teaching that is not infallibly defined. I still do not know about the Spouse of the Holy Spirit.

However, it is important to understand that if we do not understand Mary as more than simply a virgin made available for God to use because she appealed to Him (the more perverse and offensive teaching, in my opinion), then we do not really define how Jesus is both Man and God. How can God be born of a sinful woman, as this would be equivalent to the mating of separate species, as one Muslim tried to argue. God cannot dwell with Sin, and must purify all that He touches. If we do not accept this, then we have no compelling theological reason to argue that Mary had to be a virgin. If we do not accept this, then human flesh had not truly been redeemed, because God has not truly joined human flesh.

Protestants de-emphasize the importance of the Incarnation in the redemption story, and it is quite important to exactly this Muslim objection.
 
PeteVZ said:
God didn’t become human to feel. He became human to fulfill a covenant which we were incapable of fulfilling since we are human and therefore imperfect and weak.

If you are in a boat and someone is drowning, do you reach out your hand to them, or just give them a book about swimming? God took it a step further by getting out of the boat, swimming over to us and lifting us out of the water and into the boat. Once you are in the boat, you can read the book about swimming in case you fall out. Did God get wet to know what it felt like? No, it was because we couldn’t swim close enough to take his hand.
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Very nice post! I really like that analogy!👍
 
PeteVZ said:
God didn’t become human to feel. He became human to fulfill a covenant which we were incapable of fulfilling since we are human and therefore imperfect and weak.

If you are in a boat and someone is drowning, do you reach out your hand to them, or just give them a book about swimming? God took it a step further by getting out of the boat, swimming over to us and lifting us out of the water and into the boat. Once you are in the boat, you can read the book about swimming in case you fall out. Did God get wet to know what it felt like? No, it was because we couldn’t swim close enough to take his hand.
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Although you have explained this very well, there is an entire thread dedicated for muslim woman to learn about the the Trinity and Christian teachings, with MANY good explanations, but alas, the poor soul still doesnt get it.
Just pray that she will understand it one day, as she is in a good situation, by coming to this site, to actually learn the truth about God, its just her mind we have to pray that will open up to learn.
👍
 
Reuben_J said:
If Allah cannot understand Christian’s concept of the Trinity how could we expect some poor Muslim posters here to understand what Allah does not?
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It is not that complex. Either God has to follow the same rules we do or he does not.

For example, does the passage of time affect him?

Does gravity?
 
ralphinal said:
It is not that complex. Either God has to follow the same rules we do or he does not.

For example, does the passage of time affect him?

Does gravity?
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Really. It’s mind boggling why Muslim posters here cannot understand.

I am looking forwards then to listen to what they say about this.
 
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Salaam/peace
Reuben_J said:
If you don’t count the Quran, hardly any.
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Jesus (p) is a Prophet in Islam . Muslims believe in his miracle birth & other miracles he performed by the will of God.

Miracle of all miracles is holy Quran.

Say: If the whole of mankind and jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur`an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support

www.jannah.org/articles/qurdeed.html
 
Muslim_Woman said:
Similarly, our Lord and Creator Allah (swt) need not take human form to know what is good or bad for the human being. He chooses to reveal the instruction manual.

The last and final instruction manual of the human beings is the Glorious Qur’an. The ‘dos’ and ‘don’ts’ for the human beings are mentioned in the Qur’an.
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How come the Instruction Manual of God can have multi interpretation or multi-tafseer? Your Dr. Naik is guilty for describing God of being careless.
 
Muslim_Woman said:
Miracle of all miracles is holy Quran.
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And one of the “miracle” is the Jihadist verses which is widely interpreted beginning from “A fight within someone’s heart” into “A real fight to kill the unbelievers”
 
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