Jesus a "great teacher"

[LynJohn1023]

I like your thoughts there, Sarah They are the opposite of brutish, in my estimation.

It’s a fact that not only other human beings , but also our fellow creatures, have suffered greatly as a result of human rapaciousness and cruelty. From a Christian standpoint, this is possibly an added dimension to the problem of evil – animals did not commit original sin, yet they have been permitted to suffer at the hands of sinful humanity (animal cruelty, for example).

There is ironic nobility, though, in human beings who have the self-awareness and the moral sense to be highly self-critical, and to acknowledge that human beings are not the axis on which the universe revolves. It reminds me of two quotes from rather famous philosophers: “he who despises himself nonetheless still respects himself as one who despises” (Friedrich Nietzsche); and “man is a reed, the weakest in nature; but he is a thinking reed” (Blaise Pascal).

Ahh, Nietzsche… Hitler loved his philosophy for a reason dude.

 

[Peter_Plato]

According to every denomination of the Christian faith and the Catholic Church, evil is NOT part of God’s Creation. Man, not God allowed evil into the Creation.

I am not doubting that, but it is still present (as a negation) in creation regardless of the source whence it came.

 

[lynnehelen]

Nietszche lost his mind before he died. Thought he was Jesus.

 

[lynnehelen]

And as for microbes, wait until you spend 36 hours picking them from UNDER your skin and end up at the ER at 5 am covered from head to foot with lacerations, where you almost get committed for self-injury due to history of insanity (but the Godly doctor lets you go because you are able to SHOW him the brown junk you just picked from a bump on your hand)
subsequent to sewer water backup
and then tell me how much you love microbes

 

[lynnehelen]

both my parents are insane. I am an expert on insanity. I am insane myself. I love the Catholic Church because it accords value to my suffering. Jesus was the sanest man on Earth. Of course! Because insanity comes from deception and/or self-deception and God can neither deceive nor be deceived. Jesus was the Son of God. qed

 

[lynnehelen]

My father got beat by his mother with a metal fire poker when he was a kid during WWII in England. I just found out that this could have caused seizures, as well as PTSD, anxiety, and other disorders. I pity him, but it is NOT okay what he “does with his head” to handle the pain. My mother–I won’t go there. The problem is that they are very influential people because my Dad “made it big” (to use my mother’s favorite expression) in high-tech and they propagate these lies and his bad logic, they gave my husband power to do same, and my thirty-year record of mental illness is a big part of what makes it all work (for everybody else.)

 

[atheistgirl]

You know Sarah, if I’m wrong and after this life it’s just over, I suffer nothing and live believing in something great.

That will work for you. It wouldn’t work for me. I can’t believe in something ‘great’ just because it’s a nice idea, and we’re so arrogant as a species to think we’re so important, we’re immortal. I would need evidence of such a Deity and so far, I do not see any. But that’s just me.

If you’re wrong, and there is a God, I wonder what will become of you.

This might sound like a flippant answer, but I’m being very serious. I honestly don’t care.

I live as honest, decent, hard working life as best I can, bring my family up as best I can, be the best wife I can, and get involved in doing as much good as I can, not for any reason of eternal reward, but precisely the opposite; we’re here for such a tiny amount of time, it’s best, in my view, to use that time as well as possible, to do as much good as possible not just for people but for everything living around us, as you won’t get a second chance at it.

If there is a God, well, He can take me as He finds me.

I’ll have been true to myself, and honest, and lived with as much integrity as I could, and if that’s not good enough well …

I know, I’ll pray that God will have mercy on you since Christ came to redeem you too. Do me a favor, pray I’ll be granted mercy too. God knows I’ll need it too!

Well, you caught me at a good time

I’m just wrapping up a 40 day prayer exercise as promised to some posters here, so I will certainly pray for you

By the way Sarah, I recognize my obligation to be a good steward because God has so commanded (Gen 2).

If God hadn’t commanded it, would you still be a good steward?

I try to be a good steward because I recognize the interdependence of all living things on this earth, including the soil itself. With a highly evolved sense of empathy and reciprocity, which has it’s evolution in entirely natural processes, I recognize not just what’s good for me, but good for every living thing, and I realize if I hurt the soil enough for example, it won’t grow crops, and my children, or grandchildren, or neighbors, could potentially go hungry. If I take care of the soil, it’ll grow strong crops, that my animals can eat, and I can then eat the crops and the beef, and we can live very healthy and well, and so it goes on.

I recognize doing good for someone not only makes me feel good about myself and my ability to help and change someones life for the better (giving work opportunities and training to ex convicts for example) but if this guy can change his life around, become a productive contributing member of society, not only does he regain his dignity as a human being, can provide for himself and his family, but he’s no longer a criminal, so I’m safer, and so is my family. Can you see the thinking? It’s not just about me, but the species, and all other species, so I can recognize that even if it’s a pain in the butt for me, long term, it’s better for all of us, so we all, including me and mine, benefit.

What moral standard makes you think you should?

Living in a complex system of other beings, all trying to survive and thrive. We need to co-operate to do so. We learned this tens of thousands of years ago, long before any religious texts existed.

I’m always curious wherefrom an atheist obtains their moral imperative.

From the same place you get yours. I recognize it for what it is, believers of all faiths attribute it to their Deity.

These are real questions that I would not be able to answer.

Oh, I think you would

Sarah x

 

[Bradski]

^Suitably impressed…

 

[stewstew03]

That will work for you. It wouldn’t work for me. I can’t believe in something ‘great’ just because it’s a nice idea, and we’re so arrogant as a species to think we’re so important, we’re immortal. I would need evidence of such a Deity and so far, I do not see any. But that’s just me.



This might sound like a flippant answer, but I’m being very serious. I honestly don’t care.

I live as honest, decent, hard working life as best I can, bring my family up as best I can, be the best wife I can, and get involved in doing as much good as I can, not for any reason of eternal reward, but precisely the opposite; we’re here for such a tiny amount of time, it’s best, in my view, to use that time as well as possible, to do as much good as possible not just for people but for everything living around us, as you won’t get a second chance at it.

If there is a God, well, He can take me as He finds me.

I’ll have been true to myself, and honest, and lived with as much integrity as I could, and if that’s not good enough well …

Well, you caught me at a good time

I’m just wrapping up a 40 day prayer exercise as promised to some posters here, so I will certainly pray for you

If God hadn’t commanded it, would you still be a good steward?

I try to be a good steward because I recognize the interdependence of all living things on this earth, including the soil itself. With a highly evolved sense of empathy and reciprocity, which has it’s evolution in entirely natural processes, I recognize not just what’s good for me, but good for every living thing, and I realize if I hurt the soil enough for example, it won’t grow crops, and my children, or grandchildren, or neighbors, could potentially go hungry. If I take care of the soil, it’ll grow strong crops, that my animals can eat, and I can then eat the crops and the beef, and we can live very healthy and well, and so it goes on.

I recognize doing good for someone not only makes me feel good about myself and my ability to help and change someones life for the better (giving work opportunities and training to ex convicts for example) but if this guy can change his life around, become a productive contributing member of society, not only does he regain his dignity as a human being, can provide for himself and his family, but he’s no longer a criminal, so I’m safer, and so is my family. Can you see the thinking? It’s not just about me, but the species, and all other species, so I can recognize that even if it’s a pain in the butt for me, long term, it’s better for all of us, so we all, including me and mine, benefit.

Living in a complex system of other beings, all trying to survive and thrive. We need to co-operate to do so. We learned this tens of thousands of years ago, long before any religious texts existed.

From the same place you get yours. I recognize it for what it is, believers of all faiths attribute it to their Deity.

Oh, I think you would

Sarah x

'Tis revealed - thou art a crypto-Catholic.

 

[atheistgirl]

'Tis revealed - thou art a crypto-Catholic.

I can’t be.

I have a lovely singing voice.



Sarah x

 

[stewstew03]

I can’t be.

I have a lovely singing voice.



Sarah x

Ouch! Take that Mr. Bocelli!

 

[atheistgirl]

Ouch! Take that Mr. Bocelli!

Sorry, it’s a fact.

Catholics can’t sing

ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/CASING.TXT

Every once in a while a book is published that falls into the category of
“must” reading. Thomas Day’s compelling book, “Why Catholics Can’t Sing”
(Crossroads, 1991) is that book. It is “must” reading not only for church
musicians and the clergy, but for all Catholics who care about the liturgy.
It is an excellent survey told in a clear style and an interestingly
humorous manner. One might wonder about the authority of the author who
would tackle this topic. Day, who is chairman of the department of music at
Salve Regina College in Rhode Island, where he is professor music theory
and history, has his doctorate from Columbia University.Day makes a point. He is right. Catholics do not sing. They are not
encouraged to sing.

Sarah x

 

[Peter_Plato]

Sorry, it’s a fact.

Catholics can’t sing

Sarah x

This
…Day makes a point. He is right. Catholics do not sing. They are not encouraged to sing.

Does not entail that Catholics can’t sing, only that they don’t in fact sing or are not encouraged to. That does not equate to can’t. Gregorian chants disprove that.

 

[atheistgirl]

This
…Day makes a point. He is right. Catholics do not sing. They are not encouraged to sing.

Does not entail that Catholics can’t sing, only that they don’t in fact sing or are not encouraged to. That does not equate to can’t. Gregorian chants disprove that.

This



and this



might have given a clue to the fact I was making a joke with Stewstew03.

The title of the book is Why Catholics *Can’t *Sing.

That too, was tongue in cheek by the author.

But never mind… carry on …

Sarah x

 

[stewstew03]

This



and this



might have given a clue to the fact I was making a joke with Stewstew03.

The title of the book is Why Catholics *Can’t *Sing.

That too, was tongue in cheek by the author.

But never mind… carry on …

Sarah x

Nothing to see here, folks, just some mild jocularity between two interlocutors…

 

[Peter_Plato]

This



and this



might have given a clue to the fact I was making a joke with Stewstew03.

The title of the book is Why Catholics *Can’t *Sing.

That too, was tongue in cheek by the author.

But never mind… carry on …

Sarah x

But you are always so serious…
:doh2:

 

[Peter_Plato]

Nothing to see here, folks, just some mild jocularity between two interlocutors…

I just came for the free popcorn.

 

[LynJohn1023]

That will work for you. It wouldn’t work for me. I can’t believe in something ‘great’ just because it’s a nice idea, and we’re so arrogant as a species to think we’re so important, we’re immortal. I would need evidence of such a Deity and so far, I do not see any. But that’s just me.



This might sound like a flippant answer, but I’m being very serious. I honestly don’t care.

I live as honest, decent, hard working life as best I can, bring my family up as best I can, be the best wife I can, and get involved in doing as much good as I can, not for any reason of eternal reward, but precisely the opposite; we’re here for such a tiny amount of time, it’s best, in my view, to use that time as well as possible, to do as much good as possible not just for people but for everything living around us, as you won’t get a second chance at it.

If there is a God, well, He can take me as He finds me.

I’ll have been true to myself, and honest, and lived with as much integrity as I could, and if that’s not good enough well …

Well, you caught me at a good time

I’m just wrapping up a 40 day prayer exercise as promised to some posters here, so I will certainly pray for you

If God hadn’t commanded it, would you still be a good steward?

I try to be a good steward because I recognize the interdependence of all living things on this earth, including the soil itself. With a highly evolved sense of empathy and reciprocity, which has it’s evolution in entirely natural processes, I recognize not just what’s good for me, but good for every living thing, and I realize if I hurt the soil enough for example, it won’t grow crops, and my children, or grandchildren, or neighbors, could potentially go hungry. If I take care of the soil, it’ll grow strong crops, that my animals can eat, and I can then eat the crops and the beef, and we can live very healthy and well, and so it goes on.

I recognize doing good for someone not only makes me feel good about myself and my ability to help and change someones life for the better (giving work opportunities and training to ex convicts for example) but if this guy can change his life around, become a productive contributing member of society, not only does he regain his dignity as a human being, can provide for himself and his family, but he’s no longer a criminal, so I’m safer, and so is my family. Can you see the thinking? It’s not just about me, but the species, and all other species, so I can recognize that even if it’s a pain in the butt for me, long term, it’s better for all of us, so we all, including me and mine, benefit.

Living in a complex system of other beings, all trying to survive and thrive. We need to co-operate to do so. We learned this tens of thousands of years ago, long before any religious texts existed.

From the same place you get yours. I recognize it for what it is, believers of all faiths attribute it to their Deity.

Oh, I think you would

Sarah x

Sarah,
I mean no condescension, but your answers are flip and lack thought. It’s as though you want to ignore the tree right in front of you because you imagine a great forest ought to be more than just trees. It is. Please hear NO condemnation in this. You just strike me as far smarter and more thoughful than MOST of your responses. I was an atheist until I spent the time to read what the great philosophers and Catholic theologians said about God. By the way, if there was no command from God, indeed if no God, I woulod not be a good steward. What would compel me. I would take care of what was mine and what affects me only. That is what life without a compass looks like. Surely, these purely selfish and self-interested acts would have the effect of caring for the world around me. But, that is accidental, like the flavor of wine in the Eucharist. My intent is merely to care for myself. A bear does that. A bear’s prey does that.
God too, existed long before any text. He is, we believe, written in our hearts. Surely you see the logic in that. If there is a perfect, eternal and omnamorous God, as we Catholics believe, He created us with a desire for Him. Are you ABSOLUTELY positive that is NOT wherefrom you get your compass to do good. Have you read Mere Christianity by another famous (former) atheist named C. S. Lewis. It was informative.
I am grateful that I caught you in a good mood. And, I take that as humor as you meant. I am grateful for your prayers. Surely God will pour grace on me from them and give you the merit for them. I have asked for as much.
Allow me to be clear. I absolutely respect your disbelief. And, not just because of the country in which I live nor the principle of freedom associated with thought. I respect it because you are obviously pretty smart. You clearly are trying to understand what you believe and disbelieve. You are clearly trying to believe what I do as well. Open minds eventually come to the Creator. Socrates is a good example. Many centuries bbefore Christ, he paved the way for Saint Paul’s evangeliszation of much of Greece with his profession of one single God.
I will continue to pray for you. Please, even though you believe no one is listening, pray for me. If you’re right, no sweat. If I’m right, you may be the person whose intercession obtains this poor sinner mercy essential to entering Paradise at my end. You may not be, but, I’m grateful to you for them either way. And, I’m grateful God, before all Eternity, put us together in this seemingly inconsequential discussion at precisely the right time in human history for you to be in a good mood and pray for me. Yes, I really do believe that. I pray for the day you do as well.
I hope we see each other on the other side some day. My daughter, six years and my beautiful bride pray for you too.

 

[atheistgirl]

Sarah,
I mean no condescension, but your answers are flip and lack thought.

I don’t take any condescention from your reply However, if you think I’ve not spent, by this stage, thousands of hours reading, reflecting and studying, you’re very much mistaken.

I was an atheist until I spent the time to read what the great philosophers and Catholic theologians said about God.

I’ve spent hundreds of hours on the Vatican website reading Church documents, read dozens of books recommended to me from posters here, spent goodness knows how many hours in interesting conversation with believers and am just about wrapping up a 40 day prayer exercise, so I think it’s fair for me to claim I’m giving this a fair shot.

By the way, if there was no command from God, indeed if no God, I woulod not be a good steward. What would compel me. I would take care of what was mine and what affects me only.

I’m saddened to hear you wouldn’t be a good steward if God had not commanded you to. Apart from the inherent dangers of the Divine Command Theory, it shows an extrodinary lack of perspective.

You don’t seem to realize that by looking after the earth and all on it and in it, you are precisely ‘‘taking care of what is mine and what affects me only’’

You don’t seem to understand just how interconnected every living thing is, if your only reason for good stewardship is because God commanded you to.

God too, existed long before any text. He is, we believe, written in our hearts. Surely you see the logic in that. If there is a perfect, eternal and omnamorous God, as we Catholics believe, He created us with a desire for Him. Are you ABSOLUTELY positive that is NOT wherefrom you get your compass to do good.

Yes I am.

Have you read Mere Christianity by another famous (former) atheist named C. S. Lewis. It was informative.

One of the first books recommended to me from a poster here. Yes, bought and read.

Please, even though you believe no one is listening, pray for me. If you’re right, no sweat. If I’m right, you may be the person whose intercession obtains this poor sinner mercy essential to entering Paradise at my end.

Now how about that. You get to close the show.

I will of course remember you to God when I am doing my prayer exercise, and today wraps up the 40 days. I will remember you when I sign off so the last prayer I offer up as part of this exercise will be for you

I’m adding smilies but I’m being serious. I will of course remember you.

My daughter, six years and my beautiful bride pray for you too.

I’ll remember them too. That’s as much as I can do.

Sarah x

 

[LynJohn1023]

I don’t take any condescention from your reply However, if you think I’ve not spent, by this stage, thousands of hours reading, reflecting and studying, you’re very much mistaken.

I’ve spent hundreds of hours on the Vatican website reading Church documents, read dozens of books recommended to me from posters here, spent goodness knows how many hours in interesting conversation with believers and am just about wrapping up a 40 day prayer exercise, so I think it’s fair for me to claim I’m giving this a fair shot.

I’m saddened to hear you wouldn’t be a good steward if God had not commanded you to. Apart from the inherent dangers of the Divine Command Theory, it shows an extrodinary lack of perspective.

You don’t seem to realize that by looking after the earth and all on it and in it, you are precisely ‘‘taking care of what is mine and what affects me only’’

You don’t seem to understand just how interconnected every living thing is, if your only reason for good stewardship is because God commanded you to.

Yes I am.

One of the first books recommended to me from a poster here. Yes, bought and read.

Now how about that. You get to close the show.

I will of course remember you to God when I am doing my prayer exercise, and today wraps up the 40 days. I will remember you when I sign off so the last prayer I offer up as part of this exercise will be for you

I’m adding smilies but I’m being serious. I will of course remember you.



I’ll remember them too. That’s as much as I can do.

Sarah x

Thanks Sarah. I will pray for you too. You have so much information. I pray you use it well.

I do understand that, '‘taking care of what is mine and what affects me only’, has the effect you say. I was pointing out that intent is a moral ingredient.

You seem to have all the answers. I wish I did. My prayer is that you will see the Light. I want you to know that, what you may not have caught in Church documents, atheists can go to heaven. I’ll see you there, I’ve no doubt. I will seek the intercession of St. Kateri Tekawitha for you. She is wholly appropriate for you.

One other comment, Divine Command isn’t a theory. And, it is the basis of a moral life. Again, intent is everything. A mature mind is better off doing the wrong thing for the right reason than the right thing for the wrong reason. I don’t obey the command to be a good steward of the world because I fear punishment. I do it because I feel the need to show gratitude (a quality of love) to the God who commanded me as a father commands his son. I don’t fear punishment. That is a self-imposed event. I desire to please my father who loves me beyond anything I could ever understand.

For the record, I am certain you are capable of love, agape, etc. You are created by the same one, true God as I. He wrote that code in our hearts. We are not marionets. We are children. Thank you for your respect for human life (and all of Creation). I do it for the same reason you do. All people are innately dignified by God. They have a God-given right to exist. And, when one man raises his hand to kill innocents, their blood cries out from the ground for God. At least so the, “Texts,” as you call them tell us. “1God then said, ‘What have you done? Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground!’” Gen 4:10