Jesus a "great teacher"

  • Thread starter Thread starter lynnehelen
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
So in order to make these absolutely astute judgements about the capabilities of great moral teachers you must be placing yourself above them all as a kind of “Chief Ethicist” above all great moral teachers. The saying, “It takes one to know one!” comes into mind here. So you must be greater than any of these moral teachers in order to have the purview necessary to rank order them as you do. As you blithely put it, "…his morality was lacking too much to be called ‘great’ …

This claim is unrivaled in audacity what it lacks in truth. :hmmm:

Apparently you implicitly have some “crazy ideas” about yourself and your abilities that don’t stop you from being a greater moral teacher than these others you so loosely rank.
I do not have to place myself above these teachers? All I have to do is look at the evidence and conclude that someone who does not live up to his own moral standards is not “great”. Andf Jesus did not live up to his own standards. Instead of “loving” his enemies, he used violence agianst them, instead of condemning slavery, which would have been consistent with some of his other teachings, he chose to remain silent etc.
 
Love may consist of using violence to protect the defenseless if there is no other option. To stand by and allow someone (enemy or not) to commit gratuitous violence against the well-being of another human being is tantamount to being a perpetrator of the act. Love does not abandon those loved to the whims of evil.

It is one thing to turn the other cheek in a one off act to make a point that Love is not compelled to mindless violence, but it is quite another to stand by and allow those with evil intentions to harm defenseless others.
If there is no other option. But there was another option: the same option Jesus used on other occasions: preaching and setting an example. He allowed this gratuitous violence in the temple for most of his time on earth and then suddenly got completely mad and threw the traders out. What do you think the result was? The next day, the traders were probably back doing their business.
 
Whether the Egyptians, the Mayans or Hammurabi stated it first is irrelevant, IMHO, as Jesus did not come to be a moral teacher. Every morally sane person already knew it was better to give than to receive, to love one’s enemies, to give your cloak to the one who has none…
I stated this a s a reply to the assertion that Jesus ’ teachings were unique. Since you agree they weren’t, there is nothing to discuss on this matter.
Sometimes being “violent” is to love, belorg.
Are you a parent, by chance? If so, you will certainly understand this if you’ve ever brought your child to get his immunizations and had to participate in this “violence” done against him.
That is not violence . It may hurt, but it is not violence. Voilence would be beating your child because it does something wrong.
 
Please cite your source with the exact words. Were people told to pray for those who persecute them and if necessary sacrifice their lives for their enemies?
Where is the source and text?
And can you cite your source that says ‘if necessary sacrifice your life for your enemies’?
“Love others as I have loved you.”
Anwya, the point is that none of the teachings of Jesus were unique.
Repetition without evidence convinces no one but yourself.
Love does not consist in encouraging and pandering to evil - such as exploiting the poor and defiling the House of God…
Love consists of persuading those who do evil to stop doing it. It does not consist of using violence against your enemies.

Attempts at persuasion are useless when men are obsessed with profiteering and have done so for generations.
Where do you obtain your moral values?
No response!
 
I do not have to place myself above these teachers? All I have to do is look at the evidence and conclude that someone who does not live up to his own moral standards is not “great”. Andf Jesus did not live up to his own standards. Instead of “loving” his enemies, he used violence agianst them, instead of condemning slavery, which would have been consistent with some of his other teachings, he chose to remain silent etc.
The problem here is that you completely misunderstand the meaning behind the events in question and the teachings of Jesus as a whole. I have addressed the issue of slavery in post 62.

Driving the money changers out of the Temple was a symbolic act meant to get a message across to the Jewish leaders and the people in general. The Temple was seen as the earthly abode of God, Jesus’ message through the act of driving out the dealers was to cleanse the Temple of all of its accumulation of tainted practices because His resurrected body would become the new Temple of God. Jesus was making a point that he had been given complete authority over the Temple rites and procedures. He was demonstrating his authority in front of the Jewish hierarchy to make it clear to them that God had given him full authority over the Temple and that would be proven by the fact that the new Temple (his body) would be rebuilt, i.e., resurrected by God in three days. It was a kind of dramatic parable or, in modern parlance, a piece of performance art, staged in front of the Jewish Passover celebrants, as a clear prophetic pointer that He would be the lamb sacrificed at this Passover to become the new Temple after his resurrection. Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up (John 2:19)

Reading Scripture piecemeal by picking events to prove an embarrassingly simplistic bias about Christianity is not doing justice to Jesus’ message in the Gospels.

For a more wholistic approach, watch this video, in particular from the 7 minute mark to the end.
 
If there is no other option. But there was another option: the same option Jesus used on other occasions: preaching and setting an example. He allowed this gratuitous violence in the temple for most of his time on earth and then suddenly got completely mad and threw the traders out. What do you think the result was? The next day, the traders were probably back doing their business.
The weakness of that argument is revealed in the concession that Jesus preached and set an example for most of His time on earth. To assert that He “suddenly got completely mad”** on one occasion** is simply a cynic’s desperate ploy to discredit His character. It is significant that there is no criticism of His harsh denunciation of Jewish Establishment:
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness.
Matthew 23:27
 
Voilence would be beating your child because it does something wrong.This used to be good catholic practice, but nowadays it is considered wrong.
Be careful, belorg. This is contemptuous of Catholicism and is not permitted here on the CAFs.

It is also a great display of your ignorance regarding Catholicism. Hurting children has never been a part of Catholic teaching. Were there Catholics that hurt children? Yes, there were.

But, I suppose the same could be said for atheist parents, no?
 
I stated this a s a reply to the assertion that Jesus ’ teachings were unique. Since you agree they weren’t, there is nothing to discuss on this matter.
Yes, we are agreed that Jesus’ moral teachings were not necessarily unique. Morality is, as the Scriptures say, “written in our hearts”.
That is not violence . It may hurt, but it is not violence.
Yep. Same with Jesus throwing out the moneychangers in the temple.
 
The problem here is that you completely misunderstand the meaning behind the events in question and the teachings of Jesus as a whole. I have addressed the issue of slavery in post 62.

Driving the money changers out of the Temple was a symbolic act meant to get a message across to the Jewish leaders and the people in general. The Temple was seen as the earthly abode of God, Jesus’ message through the act of driving out the dealers was to cleanse the Temple of all of its accumulation of tainted practices because His resurrected body would become the new Temple of God. Jesus was making a point that he had been given complete authority over the Temple rites and procedures. He was demonstrating his authority in front of the Jewish hierarchy to make it clear to them that God had given him full authority over the Temple and that would be proven by the fact that the new Temple (his body) would be rebuilt, i.e., resurrected by God in three days. It was a kind of dramatic parable or, in modern parlance, a piece of performance art, staged in front of the Jewish Passover celebrants, as a clear prophetic pointer that He would be the lamb sacrificed at this Passover to become the new Temple after his resurrection. Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up (John 2:19)

Reading Scripture piecemeal by picking events to prove an embarrassingly simplistic bias about Christianity is not doing justice to Jesus’ message in the Gospels.

For a more wholistic approach, watch this video, in particular from the 7 minute mark to the end.
Driving the money changers out of the temple may have been a symbolic act but it was nevertheless an act of violence. It was a’ parable’ involving people getting hurt, contrary to Jesus’ teachings. Would you like someone beating you up just to make apoint?
Or do you mean to say that it did not really happen and was just included in the godspels as a kind of parable?
This is not a question of reading Scripture piecemeal, it’s a question of the gospel not being internally consistent, and no amount of apologetics can change that simple fact. Using your ‘wholistic’ approach I could show you how Hitler was in fact morally perfect. I can prove anything. But I prefer to stay with the facts. And the facts are: Jesus did not love his enemies
 
Where is the source and text?
It is in the instructions of Amenemope, it was expressed in Babylonian texts, in texts by Greek philospohers, in Buddhist text an taoist texts, all predating Jesus.
“Love others as I have loved you.”
Who says ‘others’ is ‘enemies’ ?
Repetition without evidence convinces no one but yourself.
There are countless examples.
Attempts at persuasion are useless when men are obsessed with profiteering and have done so for generations.
Who says so? Jesus could be very persuasive.
No response!
I don’t even understand what you are asking. I have some suspicion.
 
Yes, we are agreed that Jesus’ moral teachings were not necessarily unique. Morality is, as the Scriptures say, “written in our hearts”.

Yep. Same with Jesus throwing out the moneychangers in the temple.
That is clearly an act of violence and not an act of love.
 
Driving the money changers out of the temple may have been a symbolic act but it was nevertheless an act of violence. It was a’ parable’ involving people getting hurt, contrary to Jesus’ teachings. Would you like someone beating you up just to make apoint?
Or do you mean to say that it did not really happen and was just included in the godspels as a kind of parable?
This is not a question of reading Scripture piecemeal, it’s a question of the gospel not being internally consistent, and no amount of apologetics can change that simple fact. Using your ‘wholistic’ approach I could show you how Hitler was in fact morally perfect. I can prove anything. But I prefer to stay with the facts. And the facts are: Jesus did not love his enemies [My emphasis added]
You read a newspaper story of a man who attacked another with a knife and made a huge gash in his chest. Using the swift but critical judgement you have shown above, you jump to the easy (for you) conclusion that the act was unloving, violent and evil.

However, as you read further, the story reveals that the armed man was a surgeon cutting into a patient’s chest to repair a defective valve, it soon becomes clear that your rash judgement has erred again. You remind yourself with a palm shot to the forehead that apparent acts of violence can end up achieving good ends and therefore be loving acts.

A surgeon cutting into a patient or a dentist extracting a tooth are “hurting” people as well, but doing so for their own good. Hurt does not equal harm. Sometimes hurting someone is intended to lead to ultimate good for them and therefore can be an act of love because it is corrective of a defect. It is, therefore, possible to love someone, even our enemies, and still hurt them intentionally.

Jesus’ act of violence does not ipso facto make it an unloving act. He offered an ultimate good, their salvation, to his hearers. Sometimes tough love is necessary to make a point to someone who refuses to listen.

In your argument, you are confusing kindness with love. It is possible to show kindness to someone about to murder another by picking up and handing them the gun they carelessly dropped, thus committing the ultimate unloving act of being an accomplice in the death of the victim. Love, in this situation, could very well call you to be violent and undertake a swift kick to the abdomen of the would-be perpetrator. Love will resort to violence when that option leads to the best, i.e., loving, outcome. When faced with the evil choices of others, sometimes violence is the loving thing to do to protect those involved or bring about the optimal good possible given the circumstances.

Your argument is that Jesus could not have been good and therefore not God merely because he was violent towards others. Like a surgeon who shows masterful expertise by using controlled “violence” to cut open a chest and repair injured tissue, Jesus as the loving and good God, made a moral choice to use controlled violence in a specific situation. God, as all-knowing and omnibenevolent has the moral purview that you lack, thus rendering your argument a rash judgement of the actions of a much more capable individual who was in a much better position than you (two thousand years removed) to know what the loving option would be. Since you have such limited access to the relevant ethical considerations of the case, I find it astounding that you can even venture an opinion. Your judgement that his behaviour was not loving is as unconvincing as you claiming a surgeon is being unloving merely because he wields a knife to cut into another person.

Your underwhelming claim is fundamentally flawed. :crutches:
 
That is clearly an act of violence and not an act of love.
You can’t have it both ways, belorg.

Either they both are acts of violence, and you can see how they are necessary.

Or neither is.

You don’t get to define one thing as violent and another not.

For if you do, then I will simply propose the corollary:

Nope, your holding your child down to immunize him is an act of violence,
but that Jesus throwing out the moneychangers is not.
 
You read a newspaper story of a man who attacked another with a knife and made a huge gash in his chest. Using the swift but critical judgement you have shown above, you jump to the easy (for you) conclusion that the act was unloving, violent and evil.

However, as you read further, the story reveals that the armed man was a surgeon cutting into a patient’s chest to repair a defective valve, it soon becomes clear that your rash judgement has erred again. You remind yourself with a palm shot to the forehead that apparent acts of violence can end up achieving good ends and therefore be loving acts.

A surgeon cutting into a patient or a dentist extracting a tooth are “hurting” people as well, but doing so for their own good. Hurt does not equal harm. Sometimes hurting someone is intended to lead to ultimate good for them and therefore can be an act of love because it is corrective of a defect. It is, therefore, possible to love someone, even our enemies, and still hurt them intentionally.

Jesus’ act of violence does not ipso facto make it an unloving act. He offered an ultimate good, their salvation, to his hearers. Sometimes tough love is necessary to make a point to someone who refuses to listen.

In your argument, you are confusing kindness with love. It is possible to show kindness to someone about to murder another by picking up and handing them the gun they carelessly dropped, thus committing the ultimate unloving act of being an accomplice in the death of the victim. Love, in this situation, could very well call you to be violent and undertake a swift kick to the abdomen of the would-be perpetrator. Love will resort to violence when that option leads to the best, i.e., loving, outcome. When faced with the evil choices of others, sometimes violence is the loving thing to do to protect those involved or bring about the optimal good possible given the circumstances.

Your argument is that Jesus could not have been good and therefore not God merely because he was violent towards others. Like a surgeon who shows masterful expertise by using controlled “violence” to cut open a chest and repair injured tissue, Jesus as the loving and good God, made a moral choice to use controlled violence in a specific situation. God, as all-knowing and omnibenevolent has the moral purview that you lack, thus rendering your argument a rash judgement of the actions of a much more capable individual who was in a much better position than you (two thousand years removed) to know what the loving option would be. Since you have such limited access to the relevant ethical considerations of the case, I find it astounding that you can even venture an opinion. Your judgement that his behaviour was not loving is as unconvincing as you claiming a surgeon is being unloving merely because he wields a knife to cut into another person.

Your underwhelming claim is fundamentally flawed. :crutches:
To me ‘love’ is not just a word that can mean any sort of thing. There is a definition. To love someone does not entail violence towards that person unless this ‘violence’ is necssary to save this person’s life.or health.
By your logic, destroying the whole wolrd would be an act of love because then all people who deserve it go to heaven and all people who don’t, go to hell at once; without any unncessary suffering. ‘love your enemy’ is supposed to be a key teaching that distiguishes Christianity from other doctrines, but now it turns out that killing your enemy is also comprised in this kind of ‘love’ , loving your enemies becomes a vacuous concept
 
You can’t have it both ways, belorg.

Either they both are acts of violence, and you can see how they are necessary.

Or neither is.
Srictly both are acts of violence, but only one is necssary, provided Jesus was right.
You don’t get to define one thing as violent and another not.
If Christians get to define ‘love’ in a way that entails brutal violence against someone who is just doing his job, then I get to define violence the way I want it to. You cannot have it both ways.
Nope, your holding your child down to immunize him is an act of violence,
but that Jesus throwing out the moneychangers is not.
Well, you have the right to think that, and you even have the rigjht to think that an omnipotent being had onlty one option, just as you have the right to throw away every kind of logic if you think that helps saving your world-view, but in that case, we don’t have anything to discuss anymore.
 
To me ‘love’ is not just a word that can mean any sort of thing. There is a definition. To love someone does not entail violence towards that person unless this ‘violence’ is necssary to save this person’s life.or health.
By your logic, destroying the whole wolrd would be an act of love because then all people who deserve it go to heaven and all people who don’t, go to hell at once; without any unncessary suffering. ‘love your enemy’ is supposed to be a key teaching that distiguishes Christianity from other doctrines, but now it turns out that killing your enemy is also comprised in this kind of ‘love’ , loving your enemies becomes a vacuous concept
This shows the fundamental confusion of your convoluted system of logic. I was very clear what love is - it is caring for the well-being of others for their own sake. However that devolves in your eyes into the ridiculous implications you posit according to “my logic” shows that thinking clearly for you is apparently a difficult chore.

Loving your enemy does not entail letting them get away with anything including murder. Self-defense and the protection of others is not only acceptable in Christian doctrine it is part of the law of the land. You have very odd beliefs about what “love” will allow people to get away with.
 
Srictly both are acts of violence,
Good. I am glad that you can see that now.
but only one is necssary, provided Jesus was right.
“Necessary”? What do you mean by that?
If Christians get to define ‘love’ in a way that entails brutal violence against someone who is just doing his job,
No one ought to define love as a way “that entails brutal violence against someone who is just doing his job.”

Who has done that?

However, if someone is doing something immoral, sometimes an act of “violence” is, indeed, “necessary.”
then I get to define violence the way I want it to.
Well, I suppose you *could *“define violence the way” you want to, and you could say, "I believe it’s violence to chop turnips into teeny tiny pieces. So there!’

but then this would be the response: whatshouldwecallme.tumblr.com/post/29811419866/when-i-heard-rihanna-tell-oprah-that-she-was-more

But create new definitions as you like. That will be fun to watch! 👍
 
If Christians get to define ‘love’ in a way that entails brutal violence against someone who is just doing his job, then …
The money changers were not “just doing their job.” The house they were plying their trade was “God’s house” and not a place of business. Which is precisely why they were chased out. This was Jesus’ own house and they were trespassing to carry on illicit business.

As to whether Jesus used ‘brutal violence!’ that is your interpretation. Turning over a few tables and waving cords in the air is not exactly brutal unless you stretch your imagination beyond reasonable bounds to make a rather feeble point.
 
To me ‘love’ is not just a word that can mean any sort of thing. There is a definition. To love someone does not entail violence towards that person unless this ‘violence’ is necssary to save this person’s life.or health.
By your logic, destroying the whole wolrd would be an act of love because then all people who deserve it go to heaven and all people who don’t, go to hell at once; without any unncessary suffering. ‘love your enemy’ is supposed to be a key teaching that distiguishes Christianity from other doctrines, but now it turns out that killing your enemy is also comprised in this kind of ‘love’ , loving your enemies becomes a vacuous concept
The interesting question to me is that of the compatiblity of love and anger. We’ve all seen the nature of anger in human beings – there is seemingly an element of resentment in anger, and anger often leads to even darker emotions – even hatred. If we’re angry at someone, we may either rage at them or stay away from them, not feeling like being in their presence. If we hear they are ill or in trouble, that anger – if it is strong enough – can stifle compassionate feeling, or render it duller and more distant.

Story of the temple notwithstanding, I know of few Christians who would uphold anger – even righteous anger – as a virtue to be cultivated. Paul’s paen to love in Corinthians 1 (“love is patient; endures all things; etc.”) speaks of great inner peace, that comes from clarity of insight. Anger, on the other hand, tends to muddy the waters (as a Buddhist might put it, it even clouds the mind – distorts perception; one can no longer see things clearly, one only “sees red”).

I’m not saying anything definitive, one way or another, on the story of the cleansing of the temple; but, if Christians feel assured that righteous anger was demonstrated to be a good thing, I can only observe that such thinking… can be easily abused 🙂
 
This shows the fundamental confusion of your convoluted system of logic. I was very clear what love is - it is caring for the well-being of others for their own sake. However that devolves in your eyes into the ridiculous implications you posit according to “my logic” shows that thinking clearly for you is apparently a difficult chore.

Loving your enemy does not entail letting them get away with anything including murder. Self-defense and the protection of others is not only acceptable in Christian doctrine it is part of the law of the land. You have very odd beliefs about what “love” will allow people to get away with.
Well, that’s what consistency means, Peter.
I do not know exactly about your country, but in mine, police officers just starting to beat people even if they offend the law would be considered a crime. The police-officers would not get away with that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top