Jesus and Mary

[Dorothy]

I don’t understand why Catholics would not want to go to her Son, period.

Our Blessed Mother Mary “magnifies the Lord”. She is one with Him. All the grace she has comes from Him.

When I meditate on the mysteries of the rosary, I can picture her holding me by the hand.

 

[Lea101]

I find myself directly praying to Jesus because I know him more than the Father and Mary.

I do not know much about Mary’s personality and it’s difficult for me to have any sort of connection. I prayed the rosary once and it wasn’t that helpful. After that it just seemed like meaningless repetitions. I’m obviously not proud of that. With God…the old testament isn’t that comforting is it?

However with Jesus, there’s the gospels and I feel like he’s more “there” while Mary is just an interpretation.

A lot of Catholics I know love Mary and when I tell them that I don’t really pray to her…yikes. I do know the judgement you might be talking about.

 

[USMC_Convert]

Frankly, it is a warped and distorted subset of Catholics who do such a thing.

You should ignore them – as they are deserving only of being ignored.

So you are denying St. Louis de Montfort’s writings? What of all the other Saints? Did you read the comments in the link I provided earlier in this thread?

 

[USMC_Convert]

Actually you are mistaken, none of this is my idea, every bit of it, except for a single word I mistakenly used in a different thread on the same topic, comes directly from the Saints. I have created nothing, I am following in the footsteps of those the Church has put up as a model for us to follow.

 

[USMC_Convert]

Frankly, it is a warped and distorted subset of Catholics who do such a thing.

You should ignore them – as they are deserving only of being ignored.

Thank you, I am proud to belong to such a warped and distorted subset. Furthermore please, I beg, you ignore me, I am a sinful and frankly dumb guy. Follow Jesus, follow the Blessed Mother, follow the Saints!

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Well brother, I think we are going to have to agree that we both have the same destination, simply different ways of getting there. I totally respect your faith and devotion and love of our Lord, and whether you go straight to Christ or I go through Mary, I’m sure we will get to debate these points into eternity together, and that’s really what matters, that we attain the final goal, God.

It would have been nice if you’d let this be your last word on this topic. I think even the good Don would agree with this.

Now, having been around the Spirituality forum for a while, I don’t think James248 has ever stated that the Marian devotees shouldn’t practice Marian devotion. But since many have insisted that Marian devotion is not only a good idea, but required for salvation, I can see why he’d get so defensive about it.

 

[MaryT777]

It would have been nice if you’d let this be your last word on this topic. I think even the good Don would agree with this.

Now, having been around the Spirituality forum for a while, I don’t think James248 has ever stated that the Marian devotees shouldn’t practice Marian devotion. But since many have insisted that Marian devotion is not only a good idea, but required for salvation, I can see why he’d get so defensive about it.

 

[Della]

I find myself directly praying to Jesus because I know him more than the Father and Mary.

I do not know much about Mary’s personality and it’s difficult for me to have any sort of connection. I prayed the rosary once and it wasn’t that helpful. After that it just seemed like meaningless repetitions. I’m obviously not proud of that. With God…the old testament isn’t that comforting is it?

However with Jesus, there’s the gospels and I feel like he’s more “there” while Mary is just an interpretation.

A lot of Catholics I know love Mary and when I tell them that I don’t really pray to her…yikes. I do know the judgement you might be talking about.

I think we’re all talking about the difference between personal piety/spirituality and doctrine, which are not the same thing.

Our goal as baptized Christians is to live out our baptismal vows. It’s not to have any particular devotion–and recall, I posted about the Communion of Saints and it’s importance in this very thread, so I’m not saying devotion for Mary isn’t good–just for the record–indeed, I think it very good and for some, necessary for their own spiritual growth. I would go so far as to say that developing this devotion can hurt no one and is beneficial if developed in a way that is helpful to the devotee.

Having written all that, it is not necessary for all, and as one who came from an anti-Catholic background, I can perfectly understand others struggling with the same kinds of negative teachings I received that they did. In my case, I hit it head on because Marian devotion was my biggest problem. In researching her and devotion to her through the writings of the great saints, such as Alphonsus de Liguori, “The Glories of Mary,” a book rich in scriptural quotes, those of the Early Church Fathers, and other learned saints and pastors, I began to fall in love with her.

Now, I’m not saying that everyone has to do the same as I or come to the same kind of devotion. Still, it is a good idea for those struggling to open their hearts and minds just so they can understand what devotion for Mary is, and decide what level of devotion they want to have. After all, since we believe in the Communion of Saints, it’s a good thing to cultivate some kind of devotion for the saints, Mary being the supreme saint of saints.

No one should pressured into any devotion–the rosary, the Liturgy of the Hours, Lectio Divina, or private revelations, such as Fatima or Lourdes, etc. Pressuring people does more harm than good and can set brother against brother, which is not at all what any devotion is meant to do.

 

[USMC_Convert]

It would have been nice if you’d let this be your last word on this topic. I think even the good Don would agree with this.

Now, having been around the Spirituality forum for a while, I don’t think James248 has ever stated that the Marian devotees shouldn’t practice Marian devotion. But since many have insisted that Marian devotion is not only a good idea, but required for salvation, I can see why he’d get so defensive about it.

Thankfully I will be around to defend my mother whenever it is needed. Furthermore I have never said devotion to the Blessed Mother is required, much less required for salvation, so if someone else has keep that with them, and keep what I have said with me. Finally Don and James are both advocating against devotion to the Blessed Mother. I sincerely hope that I am wrong about that, but reread their statements and I think you will see that is exactly what they are doing.

I pray, hope and truly want to be wrong about that last point.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

No one should pressured into any devotion–the rosary, the Liturgy of the Hours, Lectio Divina, or private revelations, such as Fatima or Lourdes, etc. Pressuring people does more harm than good and can set brother against brother, which is not at all what any devotion is meant to do.

It occurs to me that the Church draws a line between evangelization (good) and proselytizing (bad) regarding the faith itself, there is a similar line between suggesting particular devotions may be helpful, and pressuring people into a devotion with borderline scare tactics that “your life will be more difficult if you don’t” or even “your salvation is less likely if you don’t”.

I also think it is one thing to promote Marian devotion in general, and another to aggressively push one particular manifestation of it. Or to degrade other devotions; I recall someone questioning the Divine Mercy Devotion on the Traditional Forum because it ignored Mary’s role, and claiming traditional belief is that God has delegated all Mercy to Mary, and therefore praying directly to Jesus for Mercy is not what a Catholic should do.

I do find the idea that “praying directly to Jesus is questionable because it means you neglect his Mother” is very disturbing because it’s taking the focus off Him.

Since JPII was both a known Marian devotee and promoted Divine Mercy, obviously that false dichotomy is exactly that.

ETA: To USMC_Convert: As you seem to be unfamiliar with Don Ruggerio, he actually has stated in the past that he has undergone the DeMontfort consecration himself, and he also is a professor of Mariology. Again you seem to be jumping to the conclusion that opposing the idea that “everyone should have Marian devotion” is the same as opposing Marian devotion itself.

 

[USMC_Convert]

Would calling Catholics who practice the devotion and try to spread such devotion “a warped and distorted subset” be an extreme or be advocating against it in your opinion?

Don, enjoys a certain position and I have not criticized him nor judged his actions because of his position and because of Our Lord’s revelations to Mutter Vogel, however, that doesn’t mean I have to accept his teaching especially when it flies in the face of so many great and amazing Saints, old and new.

 

[USMC_Convert]

It occurs to me that the Church draws a line between evangelization (good) and proselytizing (bad) regarding the faith itself, there is a similar line between suggesting particular devotions may be helpful, and pressuring people into a devotion with borderline scare tactics that “your life will be more difficult if you don’t” or even “your salvation is less likely if you don’t”.

I also think it is one thing to promote Marian devotion in general, and another to aggressively push one particular manifestation of it. Or to degrade other devotions; I recall someone questioning the Divine Mercy Devotion on the Traditional Forum because it ignored Mary’s role, and claiming traditional belief is that God has delegated all Mercy to Mary, and therefore praying directly to Jesus for Mercy is not what a Catholic should do.

I do find the idea that “praying directly to Jesus is questionable because it means you neglect his Mother” is very disturbing because it’s taking the focus off Him.

Since JPII was both a known Marian devotee and promoted Divine Mercy, obviously that false dichotomy is exactly that.

ETA: To USMC_Convert: As you seem to be unfamiliar with Don Ruggerio, he actually has stated in the past that he has undergone the DeMontfort consecration himself, and he also is a professor of Mariology. Again you seem to be jumping to the conclusion that opposing the idea that “everyone should have Marian devotion” is the same as opposing Marian devotion itself.

You, I am guessing, are not aware of all the facts. Several days ago a post on affinity to Gabriel was started and I responded that the OP may want to look into devotion to Mary. James started his anti-devotion rant there and then started his own thread, this one. Which I was compelled to respond to, if you read the posts, I have tried to stay out of the fight but am being dragged in. Then I started my own thread about what false devotion to Mary is according to St. Louis de Montfort, in which again James and as of last night Don decided to attack.

Again, do not attribute to me the words of others. I care not if someone has said something last week, last month or last year. I never said anything about not going to Jesus, or not doing the divine mercy devotion, etc…

 

[USMC_Convert]

Explain, I mean saying something is one thing, however, backing it up is something else. Furthermore, as I have explained before, I teach nothing, I am simply transmitting the words of the Saints who have gone before us. It is not me that you all are arguing with, it is them. Most all of my posts are quotes I am not smart enough nor holy enough to come up with anything of the sort.

 

[friardchips]

Examples?

 

[friardchips]

Explain, I mean saying something is one thing, however, backing it up is something else. Furthermore, as I have explained before, I teach nothing, I am simply transmitting the words of the Saints who have gone before us. It is not me that you all are arguing with, it is them. Most all of my posts are quotes I am not smart enough nor holy enough to come up with anything of the sort.

You are not only simply transmitting the words of the Saints. You are advocating devotion to she whom Jesus Himself desired to be known and loved in Revelation, and still does. You are transmitting the faith of the Church and the deposit of faith, in all her beautiful glory. And when you defend Our Lady, you are doing Our Lady, The Church, and Christ Himself, most honorable service.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

You, I am guessing, are not aware of all the facts. Several days ago a post on affinity to Gabriel was started and I responded that the OP may want to look into devotion to Mary. James started his anti-devotion rant there and then started his own thread, this one. Which I was compelled to respond to, if you read the posts, I have tried to stay out of the fight but am being dragged in. Then I started my own thread about what false devotion to Mary is according to St. Louis de Montfort, in which again James and as of last night Don decided to attack.

Actually I have read all the posts you mention. You were not compelled to respond to anything, you CHOSE to. You could have just “agreed to disagree” the way you almost did earlier today.

Again, do not attribute to me the words of others. I care not if someone has said something last week, last month or last year. I never said anything about not going to Jesus, or not doing the divine mercy devotion, etc…

I did not ever claim you did that yourself. I guess I should have written a different post addressed to you to make that absolutely clear. The only reason I didn’t is because posting consecutive posts is considered a breach of forum ettiquette.

Also regarding this quote:

Would calling Catholics who practice the devotion and try to spread such devotion “a warped and distorted subset” be an extreme or be advocating against it in your opinion?

Again, there is a difference between practicing a devotion and spreading it. And there is a difference between evangelizing and prosletyzing.

 

[friardchips]

The whole Church has devotion to Mary. Pray the LOTH. Attend the Feast days of obligation. Personal devotion is a duty of prayer even though some don’t see things in this way. One can speak to Jesus directly but it doesn’t mean to say that one’s prayer has not been heard via intercession. Every prayer passes through this means even if the individual is not aware of it. I can go on all day proving my point but in the end it takes the participatory action of each individual to make their own path straight.

 

[friardchips]

BTW, for posters here, the correct term for Our Lady is Holy Mother and Queen of Saints.

More love needing to find expression in the world, not less. And this ought to be reflected in one’s own expressions…

One doesn’t need to use soft language in Our Lady’s direction. When speaking of Mary, remember that God is listening; He whom created Mary and all she is to Him and to us.

 

[Rosebud77]

I get that Mary is the Mother of God and that Jesus has a unique relationship with her. What I don’t get is that some Catholics are misunderstood for just going to Jesus, period.

Yep. My situation perfectly !

 

[Rosebud77]

I don’t understand why Catholics would not want to go to her Son, period.

It is not that exactly but very nearly so.