Jesus and Mary

[Don_Ruggero]

You are quite correct in all you have written. Down to the terminology of hyperbole, which is exactly the term contemporary Mariology uses for Montfort’s style of writing and a number of his expressions. And I hasten to add that is what is used by Montfortian scholars of the Religious Congregation that Montfort himself founded.

Personally, I made his consecration decades ago – but not everyone is called to any facet of the French school of spirituality, which he exemplifies. And I would not identify myself with the French school. In fact, it has elements repugnant to many people…as does the Spanish school of spirituality, for very different reasons.

Conversely, in the Benedictine school of spirituality, as but one example, there is classically little place for any significant devotion to or centrality of the Mother of Jesus.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

That’s what I thought you meant. My friend is a convert from a confessional Lutheran Synod and she never prayed to Mary or the saints. She had in her case been taught for years it was idolatry and she had come to embrace Catholic doctrine but doing so made her uncomfortable.

It bothered her so much she spoke to a priest who assured her it was not “a requirement” nor necessary and did not make her any “less Catholic.” If it enhances your Faith fine if not praying straight to Jesus is just fine as well.

She told a few people about this and had actually gotten mini lectures on how she is shortchanging herself and I too have met Catholics who seem to think if you do NOT pray the rosary often or to the saints it’s a big deal.

They are simply misguided.

Mary.

I think most priests have had this experience throughout their priesthood…and not simply on account of converts. I have certainly encountered in lifelong Catholics.

I’ve had parishioners over the years who attended daily Mass with no Marian devotion. These were people who prayed the Liturgy of the Hours or read the Sacred Scripture or walked the Way of the Cross instead of the Rosary. They made holy hours before the Blessed Sacrament, reserved or exposed. Their devotional life was entirely Christocentric. Which is perfectly fine.

Marian devotions do not appeal to everyone…nor need they. One can have a quite full and rich prayer life and have no Marian element. Marian devotion is not a measure of one’s Catholicism.

 

[USMC_Convert]

Well I tried, now I’m done, there is no point in wasting my time here. God Bless…

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Can someone please explain what hyperbole means here.

Thanks.

And again, my opinion as a Catholic in the 21st Century. We have The Blessed Virgin’s own words, her own requests from Fatima.

We are currently celebrating the 100rh year Anniversary of Our Lady of Fatima, under the leadership of our Pope
Pope Francis.

Follow Pope Francis, follow the requests and teachings of Our Lady of Fatima in a modern word. Follow the Gospels and devotions Jesus Himself requested - ie Divine Mercy, in today’s world. What is that about?

Quit sinning
Seek forgiveness in Confession
Acts of Mercy

What could be simpler?

It is language and cultural identity we understand. Be a 21st Century Missionary. Not an 18th Century Missionary in today’s world. We are here to spread the Gospel ’ go forth and spread the Gospel’ as said at Mass dismissal.

 

[friardchips]

Well I tried, now I’m done, there is no point in wasting my time here. God Bless…

Take heart in these prayers from Pope Francis on the 100th Anniversary of Fatima:

“Out of the pride of my heart, I went astray, following my own ambitions and interests, without gaining any crown of glory!” he prayed. “My one hope of glory, Lord, is this: that your Mother will take me in her arms, shelter me beneath her mantle, and set me close to your heart. Amen.”

AND:

*“Hail Holy Queen, Blessed Virgin of Fatima, Lady of Immaculate Heart, our refuge and our way to God!” he said. “O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary, Queen of the Rosary of Fatima!”’

“And so we will be, like you, an image of the column of light that illumines the ways of the world,” he prayed, “making God known to all, making known to all that God exists, that God dwells in the midst of his people, yesterday, today and for all eternity.”

“Show us the strength of your protective mantle. In your Immaculate Heart, be the refuge of sinners and the way that leads to God,” he said.

“In union with my brothers and sisters, in faith, in hope and in love, I entrust myself to you. In union with my brothers and sisters, through you, I consecrate myself to God, O Virgin of the Rosary of Fatima,” he concluded.’*

AND:

*"Hail Holy Queen,

Blessed Virgin of Fatima,

Lady of Immaculate Heart,

our refuge and our way to God!

As a pilgrim of the Light that comes to us from your hands,

I give thanks to God the Father, who in every time and place

is at work in human history;

As a pilgrim of the Peace that, in this place, you proclaim,

I give praise to Christ, our peace, and I implore for the world

concord among all peoples;

As a pilgrim of the Hope that the Spirit awakens,

I come as a prophet and messenger to wash the feet of all,

at the same table that unites us.

Ave O Clemens, Ave O pia!

Salve Regina Rosarii Fatimae.

Ave O clemens, Ave O pia!

Ave O dulcis Virgo Maria!

Hail, Mother of Mercy,

Lady robed in white!

In this place where, a hundred years ago

you made known to all the purposes of God’s mercy,

I gaze at your robe of light

and, as a bishop robed in white,

I call to mind all those who,

robed in the splendour of their baptism,

desire to live in God

and tell the mysteries of Christ in order to obtain peace.

*Hail, life and sweetness,

Hail, our hope,

O Pilgrim Virgin, O Universal Queen!

In the depths of your being,

in your Immaculate Heart,

you keep the joys of men and women

as they journey to the Heavenly Homeland.

In the depths of your being,

in your Immaculate Heart,

you keep the sorrows of the human family,

as they mourn and weep in this valley of tears.

In the depths of your being,

in your Immaculate Heart,

adorn us with the radiance of the jewels of your crown

and make us pilgrims, even as you were a pilgrim.

With your virginal smile,

enliven the joy of Christ’s Church.

With your gaze of sweetness,

strengthen the hope of God’s children.

With your hands lifted in prayer to the Lord,

draw all people together into one human family.

O clement, O loving,

O sweet Virgin Mary,

Queen of the Rosary of Fatima!

Grant that we may follow the example of Blessed Francisco and Blessed Jacinta,

and of all who devote themselves to proclaiming the Gospel.

Thus we will follow all paths

and everywhere make our pilgrim way;

we will tear down all walls

and cross every frontier,

as we go out to every periphery,

to make known God’s justice and peace.

In the joy of the Gospel, we will be the Church robed in white,

the whiteness washed in the blood of the Lamb,

blood that today too is shed in the wars tearing our world apart.

And so we will be, like you, an image of the column of light

that illumines the ways of the world,

making God known to all,

making known to all that God exists,

that God dwells in the midst of his people,

yesterday, today and for all eternity.

Hail, Mother of the Lord,

Virgin Mary, Queen of the Rosary of Fatima!

Blessed among all women,

you are the image of the Church robed in paschal light,

you are the honour of our people,

you are the victory over every assault of evil.

Prophecy of the merciful love of the Father,

Teacher of the Message of Good News of the Son,

Sign of the burning Fire of the Holy Spirit,

teach us, in this valley of joys and sorrows,

the eternal truths that the Father reveals to the little ones.

Show us the strength of your protective mantle.

In your Immaculate Heart,

be the refuge of sinners

and the way that leads to God.

In union with my brothers and sisters,

in faith, in hope and in love,

I entrust myself to you.

In union with my brothers and sisters, through you, I consecrate myself to God,

O Virgin of the Rosary of Fatima.

And at last, enveloped in the Light that comes from your hands,

I will give glory to the Lord for ever and ever.

Amen."**

 

[friardchips]

Love Our Lady.



Give yourself entirely to this Immaculate Queen of hearts.

:angel1: Let her reign in your heart that God will make a resting place for Himself in your souls. :angel1:

For where Our Lady is, miracles are abundant.



Ave Maria, Virgo Fidelis!

 

[USMC_Convert]

Where did I make that claim on this thread? WHERE?

Sorry just saw this, so James check post #9. Now I’m done…lol, hopefully…

 

[James248]

Sorry just saw this, so James check post #9. Now I’m done…lol, hopefully…

There’s a difference between talking about a situation and complaining.

 

[twf]

I think most priests have had this experience throughout their priesthood…and not simply on account of converts. I have certainly encountered in lifelong Catholics.

I’ve had parishioners over the years who attended daily Mass with no Marian devotion. These were people who prayed the Liturgy of the Hours or read the Sacred Scripture or walked the Way of the Cross instead of the Rosary. They made holy hours before the Blessed Sacrament, reserved or exposed. Their devotional life was entirely Christocentric. Which is perfectly fine.

Marian devotions do not appeal to everyone…nor need they. One can have a quite full and rich prayer life and have no Marian element. Marian devotion is not a measure of one’s Catholicism.

Father,
If one has no Marian component to one’s devotional life, wouldn’t it be difficult to fully participate in the Church’s liturgy? The Church honours the Mother of God at various points in both the Mass and in the Liturgy of the Hours. During those moments, I would think active participation would be more difficult for individuals who have no Marian devotion outside of the liturgy?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Father,
If one has no Marian component to one’s devotional life, wouldn’t it be difficult to fully participate in the Church’s liturgy? The Church honours the Mother of God at various points in both the Mass and in the Liturgy of the Hours. During those moments, I would think active participation would be more difficult for individuals who have no Marian devotion outside of the liturgy?

Not in my experience of providing spiritual direction.

But your comment does give occasion to clarify a point that I think is not always understood.

The liturgy rarely addresses the Blessed Virgin directly but typically addresses God about the Blessed Virgin…that is when she is referenced in the liturgy. The moment when she is each day addressed directly is the hymn after Compline, night prayer.

That is why the liturgical cult of the Blessed Virgin is to be fostered above all others, as the Church has decreed. It is the one most to be cultivated.

This most Holy Synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered

That directive is distinct from practices of piety that have the Virgin Mary as their object.

Saint Benedict’s life, written by Saint Gregory the Great, and the Rule he wrote which has governed monasteries for some 1500 years makes no provision for expressions of Marian piety…although it orders the Liturgy of the Hours with great exactitude and even makes specific the amount of wine allowed for daily consumption and the distribution of clothing.

That is not to say that she is not a presence – not at all – and it is far less to say that she is rejected. But the interaction with the Mother of Jesus is profoundly different in classical Benedictine spirituality, as such, than it is in Carmelite spirituality or Servite spirituality of some centuries later – which is again distinct from the French school of spirituality that emerges centuries yet closer to our time.

The schools of spirituality of East and West constitute a vast patrimony. One always must be very conscientious about prescribing that “it should be thus…” or it need be thus when it comes to exercises of piety or to matters of devotions – above all when one is not a master of the spiritual life. That is one of the last things that even those who have dedicated their lives to attaining it actually achieve.

The Council Fathers ended their admonition in Lumen Gentium by stating

Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

Thus, the person whose devotion has attained its apex may not be the devotee who choose this, that, and yet another exercise of Marian piety but rather the Benedictine monk whose lectio divina and monastic observance of the Rule of Benedict occasions his growth precisely in those virtues in which she excelled even though the monastic observance are not marked by any other practices derived from any other school of spirituality.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

This is quite rightly formulated…as, of course, you would well know without any need of my telling you.

 

[twf]

Not in my experience of providing spiritual direction.

But your comment does give occasion to clarify a point that I think is not always understood.

The liturgy rarely addresses the Blessed Virgin directly but typically addresses God about the Blessed Virgin…that is when she is referenced in the liturgy. The moment when she is each day addressed directly is the hymn after Compline, night prayer.

That is why the liturgical cult of the Blessed Virgin is to be fostered above all others, as the Church has decreed. It is the one most to be cultivated.

That directive is distinct from practices of piety that have the Virgin Mary as their object.

Saint Benedict’s life, written by Saint Gregory the Great, and the Rule he wrote which has governed monasteries for some 1500 years makes no provision for expressions of Marian piety…although it orders the Liturgy of the Hours with great exactitude and even makes specific the amount of wine allowed for daily consumption and the distribution of clothing.

That is not to say that she is not a presence – not at all – and it is far less to say that she is rejected. But the interaction with the Mother of Jesus is profoundly different in classical Benedictine spirituality, as such, than it is in Carmelite spirituality or Servite spirituality of some centuries later – which is again distinct from the French school of spirituality that emerges centuries yet closer to our time.

The schools of spirituality of East and West constitute a vast patrimony. One always must be very conscientious about prescribing that “it should be thus…” or it need be thus when it comes to exercises of piety or to matters of devotions – above all when one is not a master of the spiritual life. That is one of the last things that even those who have dedicated their lives to attaining it actually achieve.

The Council Fathers ended their admonition in Lumen Gentium by stating

Thus, the person whose devotion has attained its apex may not be the devotee who choose this, that, and yet another exercise of Marian piety but rather the Benedictine monk whose lectio divina and monastic observance of the Rule of Benedict occasions his growth precisely in those virtues in which she excelled even though the monastic observance are not marked by any other practices derived from any other school of spirituality.

Thank you Father.

 

[Rosebud77]

Yes, I agree. From reading his posts he is advocating against the extreme that it is necessary for salvation as some Catholics do imply YOU MUST pray the rosary. It’s a private voluntary devotion.

Mary.

That is it in a nutshell. Excactly, As if you are not as pious or virtuous as them if you do not,

My prayer is for sheer love not for any thought f gain eg salvation.

 

[Rosebud77]

I think most priests have had this experience throughout their priesthood…and not simply on account of converts. I have certainly encountered in lifelong Catholics.

I’ve had parishioners over the years who attended daily Mass with no Marian devotion. These were people who prayed the Liturgy of the Hours or read the Sacred Scripture or walked the Way of the Cross instead of the Rosary. They made holy hours before the Blessed Sacrament, reserved or exposed. Their devotional life was entirely** Christocentric.** Which is perfectly fine.

Marian devotions do not appeal to everyone…nor need they. One can have a quite full and rich prayer life and have no Marian element. Marian devotion is not a measure of one’s Catholicism.

What a sheerly lovely word, Father!

And yes to all you say here.

 

[patricius79]

Take heart in these prayers from Pope Francis on the 100th Anniversary of Fatima:

“Out of the pride of my heart, I went astray, following my own ambitions and interests, without gaining any crown of glory!” he prayed. “My one hope of glory, Lord, is this: that your Mother will take me in her arms, shelter me beneath her mantle, and set me close to your heart. Amen.”

Dear friard,

Thanks for quoting this.

This reminds me of Pope Paul 6th’s Encyclical, Mense Maio:

This pious practice [of honoring Mary especially in the month of May], by which the Blessed Virgin is honored and the Christian people enriched with spiritual gifts, gladdens and consoles us. Mary remains ever the path that leads to Christ. Every encounter with her can only result in an encounter with Christ Himself. For what other reason do we continually turn to Mary than to seek for the Christ she holds in her arms --to seek in her, through her and with her the Savior to Whom men, in the perplexities and dangers of life here below, must of necessity have recourse, and to Whom they feel the ever recurring need of turning as to a haven of safety and an all-surpassing source of life?
papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6month.htm

 

[friardchips]

Dear friard,

Thanks for quoting this.

This reminds me of Pope Paul 6th’s Encyclical, Mense Maio:

*This pious practice [of honoring Mary especially in the month of May], by which the Blessed Virgin is honored and the Christian people enriched with spiritual gifts, gladdens and consoles us. **Mary remains ever the path that leads to Christ. *** Every encounter with her can only result in an encounter with Christ Himself. For what other reason do we continually turn to Mary than to seek for the Christ she holds in her arms --to seek in her, through her and with her the Savior to Whom men, in the perplexities and dangers of life here below, must of necessity have recourse, and to Whom they feel the ever recurring need of turning as to a haven of safety and an all-surpassing source of life?
papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6month.htm

Thank you for this, in return! I love Pope Paul XI’s words regarding Mary. Always spoken with such love.

(in bold)…I like this part in particular: ‘Mary remains ever the path the Christ.’

 

[friardchips]

In Benedictine Monasteries, the Bell for the Angelus is most definitely rung and the Angelus is often prayed. I found this too:

Benedictine Monasticism: Our Lady - Saint Louis Abbey

‘Every monk ought to have a true devotion to Our Lady, the Blessed Virgin Mary, because she is the extraordinary model of perfection and holiness.’


I found this too: ewtn.com/library/MARY/totusjp2mont.htm

*'Feast of St Louis De Montfort: 28 April
Alberto Rum
‘Totus Tuus’ meets in a Saint and a Pope

Almost 11 years ago, on 21 June 1997, the Servant of God John Paul II addressed a Message to the Superiors General of the Montfort Religious Families for the 50th anniversary of the canonization of St Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort.

“I am happy”, he wrote, “to offer thanks to the Lord for the growing influence of this missionary Saint, whose apostolate was nourished by a life of intense prayer, an unshakeable faith in the Triune God and a deep devotion to the Most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Redeemer” (Message, L’Osservatore Romano English edition [ORE], 30 July 1997, p. 3).

Thus, after describing de Montfort’s Christocentric tone of Marian spirituality…John Paul II said: "In order to know the Eternal Wisdom, uncreated and incarnate, Grignion de Montfort constantly invited people to put their trust in the Blessed Virgin Mary, who is so inseparable from Jesus ‘that it would be easier to separate light from the sun’. He remains an incomparable bard and disciple of the Mother of the Saviour, whom he honours as the one who so assuredly leads towards Christ" (ibid.).’…
*

'"I soon realized that the book contained something fundamental over and above its baroque style. The result was that the devotion to the Mother of Christ of my childhood and my adolescence gave way to a new attitude, a devotion that welled up from the depths of my faith, as at the very heart of the Trinitarian and Christological reality"’.

'"At first, it had seemed to me that I should distance myself a bit from the Marian devotion of my childhood in order to focus more on Christ. Thanks to St Louis de Montfort,* I came to understand that true devotion to the Mother of God is actually Christocentric, indeed, it is very profoundly rooted in the mystery of the Blessed Trinity, and the mysteries of the Incarnation and Redemption" *(pp. 212-213).’

*'There I found the answers to my questions. Yes, Mary does bring us closer to Christ; she does lead us to him, provided that we live her mystery in Christ…

"This treatise by St Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort can be a bit disconcerting, given its rather florid and baroque style, but the essential theological truths which it contains are undeniable. The author was an outstanding theologian…

His Mariological thought is rooted in the Mystery of the Trinity and in the truth of the Incarnation of the Word of God" (pp. 42-43).’*

'Redemptoris Mater (25 March 1987), ‘…John Paul II gave the Church some of the richest passages of his Marian magisterium…’

*’"At the foot of the Cross there begins that special entrusting of humanity to the Mother of Christ… Such entrusting is the response to a person’s love, and in particular to the love of a mother… Entrusting himself to Mary in a filial manner, the Christian, like the Apostle John, ‘welcomes’ the Mother of Christ ‘into his own home’ and brings her into everything that makes up his inner life, that is to say, into his human and Christian ‘I’…

“Thus, the Christian seeks to be taken into that ‘maternal charity’ with which the Redeemer’s Mother ‘cares for the brethren of her Son’,** ‘in whose birth and development she cooperates’ in the measure of the gift proper to each one through the power of Christ’s Spirit”** (n. 45).’*

(Pope Benedict XVI, Homily at the Memorial Mass for the Second Anniversary of the Death of John Paul 2 April 2007; ORE, 11 April, p. 9).’

***’“May the Totus tuus of the beloved Pontiff [and may we add, also of St Louis), encourage us to follow him on the path of the gift of ourselves to Christ through the intercession of Mary, and may she herself, the Virgin Mary, obtain it for us”. *****

 

[patricius79]

Thank you for this, in return! I love Pope Paul XI’s words regarding Mary. Always spoken with such love.

(in bold)…I like this part in particular: ‘Mary remains ever the path the Christ.’

Yes, friend, she remains ever the path that leads to Jesus Christ, as Blessed Paul 6th says. I also like how he says that every encounter with her can only result in an encounter with Jesus Christ. Like the other Popes, what he says fits perfectly with the teachings of St. Louis De Montfort.

In his Encyclical Signum Magnum, Blessed Paul 6th states:

"May the Immaculate Heart of Mary shine before the eyes of all Christians as the model of perfect love toward God and toward our fellow beings; may it lead them toward the Holy Sacraments by virtue of which souls are cleansed from the stains of sin and are preserved from it. May it also stimulate them to make reparation for the innumerable offenses against the Divine Majesty. Lastly, may it shine like a banner of unity and a spur to perfect the bonds of brotherhood among all Christians in the bosom of the one Church of Jesus Christ, which “taught by the Holy Spirit, honors her with filial affection and piety as a most beloved mother.”(52)

…we exhort all the sons of the Church to renew personally their consecration to the Immaculate Heart of the Mother of the Church and to bring alive this most noble act of veneration through a life ever more consonant with the divine will (55) and in a spirit of filial service and of devout imitation of their heavenly Queen.
w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19670513_signum-magnum.html

 

[Dorothy]

This thread is wonderful!

 

[patricius79]

'Redemptoris Mater (25 March 1987), ‘…John Paul II gave the Church some of the richest passages of his Marian magisterium…’

'"At the foot of the Cross there begins that special entrusting of humanity to the Mother of Christ… Such entrusting is the response to a person’s love, and in particular to the love of a mother… Entrusting himself to Mary in a filial manner, the Christian, like the Apostle John, ‘welcomes’ the Mother of Christ ‘into his own home’ and brings her into everything that makes up his inner life, that is to say, into his human and Christian ‘I’…

Yes, Friard. As JPII says, entrusting is especially a response to the love of a mother.

Here are my two of my other favorite passages from Redemptoris Mater:

"One can say that if Mary’s motherhood of the human race had already been outlined, now it is clearly stated and established. It emerges from the definitive accomplishment of the Redeemer’s Paschal Mystery. The Mother of Christ, who stands at the very center of this mystery-a mystery which embraces each individual and all humanity-is given as mother to every single individual and all mankind.
w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater.html

"45. Of the essence of motherhood is the fact that it concerns the person. Motherhood always establishes a unique and unrepeatable relationship between two people: between mother and child and between child and mother. Even when the same woman is the mother of many children, her personal relationship with each one of them is of the very essence of motherhood. For each child is generated in a unique and unrepeatable way, and this is true both for the mother and for the child. Each child is surrounded in the same way by that maternal love on which are based the child’s development and coming to maturity as a human being.
w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater.html