Jesus' Answer to the Good Thief

[seeker44]

In the Gospel of Luke, I’ve got a question that relates to Luke 23:42 – “Then he [the Good Thief] said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ He [Jesus] replied to him, ‘Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’”

Question: How could Jesus say “today” to the Good Thief at the time of their crucifixion and death when Jesus “…on the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures…” (Creed) and ascended into Heaven? Luke seems to imply the ascension happened in the evening of Easter Sunday, and in Acts (1:3-9;13,31) Luke speaks about a 40-day period between the resurrection and the ascension. Why did Jesus tell the Good Thief “today” when Jesus would have had to wait three days or forty days before being in Paradise?

This question is the result of my born-again, evangelical friend telling me that the Virgin Mary and the saints are now dead; therefore, they cannot possibly pray for us (“Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”). My friend was invoking the doctrine of “Soul Sleep”, which says that when people die they go into a state of unconscious existence, and the next thing that they will be conscious of will be when Christ returns and raises them to eternal life—somewhat like coming out of surgery. The Bible talks about “sleep” or “falling asleep” (Matt 9:24; 27:52; John 11:11; Acts 7:60; 13:36; 1 Cor. 15:6, 18, 20, 51; 1 Thess. 4:13; 5:10). Also, there are verses which seem to teach that the dead do not have a conscious existence (Ps. 6:5; 115:17; Eccl. 9:10; Isa. 38:19). This is an old Anabaptist teaching from the 1500’s. Under this teaching, Mary and the saints are now dead; thus, they cannot help us.

To answer my friend, I used Jesus’ reply to the Good Thief as biblical proof that there are saints, and due to her importance to Jesus—the Virgin Mary—that are now alive in Paradise; thus, they fellowship in the presence of God and can pray for us.

I know that in a way this is a mute issue because at least three days, or 40 days, later, Jesus did ascend into Paradise, and consequently, the Good Thief, Mary and other saints are with Him in Heaven.

Yet, why would Jesus say “today” when that was not the case?

 

[thistle]

QUOTE
**Yet, why would Jesus say “today” when that was not the case?**UNQUOTE

You are assuming that Paradise is Heaven. It may well have been the abode of the dead which Jesus descended to after his death where the righteous who has died before Jesus was born were waiting for him to release them.

 

[LilyM]

Two other possible explanations. One is that Jesus, being God, knows that notions of time - ‘yesterday’ ‘today’ or ‘tomorrow’ - are irrelevant in heaven, which is an eternal present, and is telling the Good Thief so.

Second possibility is simply a misplaced comma - ‘I tell you today, you will be with Me in Paradise’. ‘Today’ means He is SPEAKING that day, not that the thief will be in Paradise that day.

 

[awalt]

The way I was taught was that Jesus promised him a place in Paradise today, because the death of Jesus is beginning the exodus that will open a new way to salvation that was previously closed.

Today means “starting today” or “beginning today”. Jesus used this form of “today” in Luke 4:21, there it meant that today was the start of the fulfillment of an OT prophecy.

 

[Joel_Tunnah]

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one in being. Is your friend claiming that heaven was unattended for 33 years?

 

[seeker44]

My friend says that she is strictly Bible, but her problem is “interpretation” of words, passages, etc. She is a very “slippery fish” to catch with your hand; the only way to grab her is by the “net” of contradiction in something she says. She always wiggles out of anything biblical I tell her by presenting her own contradicting interpretation of Scripture. That old saying that “Figures lie and Liers figure” works with words as well. If I tell her that her interpretation is not the correct one, she quotes more Scripture and tells me that the Holy Spirit keeps her free of error – and “that is that.” I’ve told her that Truth involves both mind and will – ability to see and accept. We usually end up agreeing to disagree. I do thank her for trying to keep me from passing through the wide gate into perdition and trying to sqeeze me through the narrow gate of the saved, which few Catholics will ever pass.

 

[Nita]

This question is the result of my born-again, evangelical friend telling me that the Virgin Mary and the saints are now dead; therefore, they cannot possibly pray for us (“Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death”). My friend was invoking the doctrine of “Soul Sleep”, which says that when people die they go into a state of unconscious existence, and the next thing that they will be conscious of will be when Christ returns and raises them to eternal life—somewhat like coming out of surgery. The Bible talks about “sleep” or “falling asleep” (Matt 9:24; 27:52; John 11:11; Acts 7:60; 13:36; 1 Cor. 15:6, 18, 20, 51; 1 Thess. 4:13; 5:10). Also, there are verses which seem to teach that the dead do not have a conscious existence (Ps. 6:5; 115:17; Eccl. 9:10; Isa. 38:19). This is an old Anabaptist teaching from the 1500’s. Under this teaching, Mary and the saints are now dead; thus, they cannot help us.

In addition to the good thief passage, you might also refer to these passages:
Luke 9:28-30 Our Lord’s transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appeared and were speaking with Jesus about His coming passion.

Rev 6:9-11 (This is John’s vision of heaven. The souls are definitely “awake”. They are told to “rest a little longer” in verse 11, but that is not the same as “go to sleep”! - more like, patiently wait a little longer.)
6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 6:10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 6:11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer,

Nita

 

[jcrichton]

In the Gospel of Luke, I’ve got a question that relates to Luke 23:42 – “Then he [the Good Thief] said, ‘Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.’ He [Jesus] replied to him, ‘Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.’”

Question: How could Jesus say “today” to the Good Thief at the time of their crucifixion and death when Jesus “…on the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures…” (Creed) and ascended into Heaven? Luke seems to imply the ascension happened in the evening of Easter Sunday, and in Acts (1:3-9;13,31) Luke speaks about a 40-day period between the resurrection and the ascension. Why did Jesus tell the Good Thief “today” when Jesus would have had to wait three days or forty days before being in Paradise?

…Yet, why would Jesus say “today” when that was not the case?

***Hi, seeker!

I think that part of the problem we have with the Holy Scriptures, Catholics and non-Catholics alike, is that we tend to think that since we understand them to be the Word of God somehow God is limited by the written Word as He could only function within their scope.

Yahweh is Omnipotent, right? Then… how can He be defeated by a mere man–yet, Scripture tells us that Jacob bested Him (Genesis 32:22-32).

Speaking of Jacob did his name not mean trickster? Scriptures tells us that Yahweh loved Jacob while He hated Essau; go figure… God rejects the first-born over the second born even before they are conceived (Malachi 1:2-3) and it is the second-born that tricks his brother out of the first-born rights and blessings!

This same underhandedness is reapeated with Manasses and Ephraim; even when Joseph attempts to correct Jacob, he continues to bless (pass the Promise) to Ephraim, the second-born!

Clearly it is God who grants Grace. It is He who determines who, what and when to bring about His Will.

What was the purpose of Jesus death on the Cross? Was it not to die for our benefit? How long would it take for Jesus to receive onto Himself the sins of the world? How much time had to elapse in order for Him to be cleansed of our sins? How long after His death would Grace fall upon the world? Remember that God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent… to Him a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.

Either Jesus, God, knew exactly what He was telling the thief (that He could grant him the Grace to be in Paradise on that very day) or Jesus was delirious and could not remember that He had to die, be interred, resurrect, appear to the Apostles and other disciples, and rise into Heaven before He could claim His Divinity.

The problem is that the Holy Scriptures reveal far more than what we can easily grasp; because we tend to use reason (human understanding) we dismiss revelations or we compose alternative interpretations that, though they limit God, are easier for our human intellect to assimilate.

Compare St. Luke 23:42 with the following:

16 In a short time you will no longer see me, and then a short time later you will see me again.
17 Then some of his disciples said to one another, ‘What does he mean, “In a short time you will no longer see me, and then a short time later you will see me again,” and, “I am going to the Father”?
18 What is this “short time”? We don’t know what he means.’
19 Jesus knew that they wanted to question him, so he said, 'You are asking one another what I meant by saying, “In a short time you will no longer see me, and then a short time later you will see me again.”
20 'In all truth I tell you, you will be weeping and wailing while the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn to joy.
21 A woman in childbirth suffers, because her time has come; but when she has given birth to the child she forgets the suffering in her joy that a human being has been born into the world.
22 So it is with you: you are sad now, but I shall see you again, and your hearts will be full of joy, and that joy no one shall take from you.*** (St. John 16:16-22)

(Some versions of verse 16 include: “because I am going to the Father.”)

…sure Jesus is talking about His death and resurrection… but if we look carefully at this passage we can discover a deeper revelation: “because I go to the Father!”

Now, either Jesus is wrong on this also or the Father’s dwelling is in the realm of Death or Jesus is actually telling us that He will regain His Divinity and thusly can promise the thief that He will take him to Paradise on that very day!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I do thank her for trying to keep me from passing through the wide gate into perdition and trying to sqeeze me through the narrow gate of the saved, which few Catholics will ever pass.

***Hi, seeker!

Could you elaborate on this a little?

Thanks!

Maran atha!

Angel***

 

[copland]

Paradise is the same place Lazarus was in Luke 16:23 when Luke said he was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom. It was connected to Hades, and Luke said between the two is a great gulf fixed (16:26), the Greek reads chasm. Paradise is the place that all the holy souls went to before the resurrection of Christ. At the Passion, Matthew says that* the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared to many (Matt. 27:52-53). *So the good thief was one of the risen. After they rose the Lord took them to Heaven, body and soul. Many commentators assume that that is what St. Paul mentions in Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith: Ascending on high, he led captivity captive; he gave gifts to men.

 

[po18guy]

My friend says that she is strictly Bible, but her problem is “interpretation” of words, passages, etc. She is a very “slippery fish” to catch with your hand; the only way to grab her is by the “net” of contradiction in something she says. She always wiggles out of anything biblical I tell her by presenting her own contradicting interpretation of Scripture. That old saying that “Figures lie and Liers figure” works with words as well. If I tell her that her interpretation is not the correct one, she quotes more Scripture and tells me that the Holy Spirit keeps her free of error – and “that is that.” I’ve told her that Truth involves both mind and will – ability to see and accept. We usually end up agreeing to disagree. I do thank her for trying to keep me from passing through the wide gate into perdition and trying to sqeeze me through the narrow gate of the saved, which few Catholics will ever pass.

Soul sleep is one of the tenets of the Seventh Day Adventist church. Ask her if hell is permanent or temporary. Adventists believe that it is a temporary state and that some souls will ascend to Heaven while others will simply cease to exist. Once you pin her theology down, if that’s possible, you may learn how to counteract it. I recommend The Essential Catholic Survival Guide, coincidentally, available on this site: shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/cgi-local/wwwwais.exe?U+scstore+kxnf8766ff09c009+configure=/u/web/shop96/merchant/swish/scstore.wcf

Christ’s peace be wit you.

 

[Nita]

The Bible talks about “sleep” or “falling asleep” (Matt 9:24; 27:52; John 11:11; Acts 7:60; 13:36; 1 Cor. 15:6, 18, 20, 51; 1 Thess. 4:13; 5:10).

In checking out the above verses, it is interesting that the “sleep” expressions seem to be used for good people who have died. Perhaps “sleep” rather than “death” was sometimes used because those souls would never experience spiritual death ( Rev. 2:11 “second death”)

Another passage to show your friend would be the parable Jesus gave about the rich man and the poor man, Lazarus (Luke 16:19-29). With this parable Jesus implies not just the “awakeness” of souls who have died, but also their awareness of those on earth and their ability to intercede for them.
eg. vs 27 & 28: *And he said, Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ *

Also, there are verses which seem to teach that the dead do not have a conscious existence (Ps. 6:5; 115:17; Eccl. 9:10; Isa. 38:19).

Belief in the resurrection/life after death, was not recognized throughout Jewish history. Even during Jesus’ time, the Sadducees did not believe (cf Mt 22:23)
The above OT verses reflect the thinking of some OT people - they do not give a teaching dictated by God.
Psalm 6:5 gives the words of of one of David’s prayers
Isaiah 38:19 is part of a writing by King Hezekiah
Eccl. is a tough book; will let someone else go into that!

Nita

 

[seeker44]

To: jcrichton: Could you elaborate on this a little?

Originally Posted by seeker44
I do thank her for trying to keep me from passing through the wide gate into perdition and trying to sqeeze me through the narrow gate of the saved, which few Catholics will ever pass.

I was being facetious. According to my friend, I worship the “Catholic Religion” (man-made–as in Thomas Aquinas et al–theological constructs and teachings) instead of the Truth which is only found in Scripture, and revealed to those who are Bible Christians who are filled with the charismatic baptism of the Holy Spirit. These are the Spirit-filled, Bible Christians who will enter through the narrow gate into Paradise.

Since she has received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (a charismatic experience she had when born-again) and I only have received “water baptism” i.e, the Catholic sacrament of baptism, which is as worthless as John the Baptist’s water baptism (not of the Spirit) in the Jordan, I still need to receive Holy Spirit Baptism (proved only by speaking in tongues) in order to be saved. (BTW, this continues to be a conflict between Pentecostals and other Protestant denominations as far as I can understand—those who are saved through Spirit baptism versus those who only are immersed in water…and are lost.)

Speaking with my friend is proof to me that private interpretation of Scripture needs the oversight of a Magisterium, that in my opinion was given the Spirit and authority to test for error. My friend’s misguided zeal examplifies why there are thousands of non-Catholic churches and non-denominational individuals preaching various interpretations of Scripture.

 

[colliric]

You are assuming that Paradise is Heaven. It may well have been the abode of the dead which Jesus descended to after his death where the righteous who has died before Jesus was born were waiting for him to release them.

Yes, it was. He could have meant several things, this being the most likely.

Does anyone else think that this is very reminicent of a modern day confession? The thief confessed his sins(he didn’t mention them personally one by one but he did fully confess them) to Jesus.

 

[jcrichton]

To: jcrichton: Could you elaborate on this a little?

Originally Posted by seeker44
I do thank her for trying to keep me from passing through the wide gate into perdition and trying to sqeeze me through the narrow gate of the saved, which few Catholics will ever pass.

I was being facetious. According to my friend, I worship the “Catholic Religion” (man-made–as in Thomas Aquinas et al–theological constructs and teachings) instead of the Truth which is only found in Scripture, and revealed to those who are Bible Christians who are filled with the charismatic baptism of the Holy Spirit. These are the Spirit-filled, Bible Christians who will enter through the narrow gate into Paradise.

Since she has received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (a charismatic experience she had when born-again) and I only have received “water baptism” i.e, the Catholic sacrament of baptism, which is as worthless as John the Baptist’s water baptism (not of the Spirit) in the Jordan, I still need to receive Holy Spirit Baptism (proved only by speaking in tongues) in order to be saved. (BTW, this continues to be a conflict between Pentecostals and other Protestant denominations as far as I can understand—those who are saved through Spirit baptism versus those who only are immersed in water…and are lost.)

Speaking with my friend is proof to me that private interpretation of Scripture needs the oversight of a Magisterium, that in my opinion was given the Spirit and authority to test for error. My friend’s misguided zeal examplifies why there are thousands of non-Catholic churches and non-denominational individuals preaching various interpretations of Scripture.

***Hi, seeker!

…sorry I asked for the unabridged version… I thought that you meant something to that effect but I’ve been told that non-Catholic Christians are very much on the same page, sort to say, as far as important doctrinal tenets, that they do not contradict each other nor are they wrong because they are Scriptures only, true Christians… I did not want to jump to any conclusions.

Thanks again for the info!

Maran atha!

Angel***

 

[po18guy]

Yes, it was. He could have meant several things, this being the most likely.

Does anyone else think that this is very reminicent of a modern day confession? The thief confessed his sins(he didn’t mention them personally one by one but he did fully confess them) to Jesus.

Yes. Great point! Public confession of sin was observed in Jewish tradition. See 1 Samuel 7:6 and Nehemiah 9:2. Reliance on private confession is a relatively recent aberration, in my view.

Christ’s peace.

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, it was. He could have meant several things, this being the most likely.

Does anyone else think that this is very reminicent of a modern day confession? The thief confessed his sins(he didn’t mention them personally one by one but he did fully confess them) to Jesus.

***Hi, colliric!

I am not sure how far back today’s Catholic form of Confession dates, but I’ve always understood it to be practically the same (i.e.: person to person: Confesor to Priest)… Not only do I see the thief in Confession (you and I are sinners) but he is also defending the Faith (He is a just man), and asking for reconciliation (remember me when You enter into Your Kindgom).

Maran atha!

Angel***

 

[jcrichton]

Yes. Great point! Public confession of sin was observed in Jewish tradition. See 1 Samuel 7:6 and Nehemiah 9:2. Reliance on private confession is a relatively recent aberration, in my view.

Christ’s peace.

***Hi, po18guy!

Is it as recent as the aberration of removing text from the Holy Scriptures (16th cetury)?

Maran atha!

Angel***

 

[po18guy]

***Hi, po18guy!

Is it as recent as the aberration of removing text from the Holy Scriptures (16th cetury)?

Maran atha!

Angel***

I don’t have the exact dates, but they’re pretty close to one another! This modern trend of confessing silently sure removes your perception of guilt. Too bad you are not actually less guilty! Private confession, against the biblical teaching of Christ by the way, bars you from knowledge of the moment of Grace. That alone: the weight being lifted, the Holy Spirit in action, is worth it all.

I have always wondered how non-Catholics are ever sure they are forgiven. “Cause the bible says so”, just has a hollow ring to it. How much better it is when the Priest, who sits in the person of Christ, uses the power and authority of Christ when he pronounces “I absolve you of your sins”. I become the good thief at Calvary. Amen! Alleluia!

Christ’s peace.

 

[jcrichton]

I have always wondered how non-Catholics are ever sure they are forgiven. “Cause the bible says so”, just has a hollow ring to it. How much better it is when the Priest, who sits in the person of Christ, uses the power and authority of Christ when he pronounces “I absolve you of your sins”. I become the good thief at Calvary. Amen! Alleluia!

Christ’s peace.

***Hi, po18guy!

…I just wondered since Luther wanted the Book of St. James out of the Bible and St. James contains a very explicit Teaching on Confession:

Jms:5:16:
16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. (DRV)***

…so I was thinking if this too was not a reason for keeping St. James out of the Bible and consequently ignored so that the new teachings allowed skipping over Jesus’ appointed Sacrament of Confession…

Maran atha!

Angel