Jesus as a highly addictive neurotoxic drug?

[Fauken]

What’s alcohol? It’s really nothing but a neurotoxic poison which is the opposite of sustenance. It’s bad for us.

Considering the only evidence you have of it being a neurotoxic poison is the effects that occur when someone abuses it, I find your claim to be dubious. Of course a substance is bad for us when we abuse it. Sugar is bad for you when you abuse it and people eat it to feel good, is it a neurotoxic poison?

In regards to drinking alcohol to feel good, I personally hate the feeling of being tipsy. I hate anything that messes with my mind. But I like gin and tonic because it tastes good. The fact it has alcohol means I limit my intake.

 

[Inquiry]

It’s not bad for us though, except in higher quantities. Reasonable amounts of alcohol are benign or even beneficial. In fact it’s a surprisingly ubiquitous principle that things that are toxic in large quantities tend to be beneficial when the dosage gets low enough. And indeed, many of the things in our food can be very problematic when consumed in high enough quantities.

 

[Fauken]

I didn’t know there was a philosophy section on here but will post it there–I’m new to this site.

I’ll move it. The forum doesn’t allow duplicate threads.

 

[Stephen_says]

I don’t know a specific writing on the subject, but i remember reading or hearing somewhere the reason wine is so important is because it is symbolic (i’m not saying the Eucharist is symbolic, just that wine itself is symbolic) of the transubstantiation itself. It starts off as grape juice, and then transforms into something “higher” if you will, to wine, though it still “appears” as grape juice, it is something substantially different.

 

[Inquiry]

When are you consuming the consecrated host except at communion, though?

 

[jack63]

The only reason to drink it is for the dopamine hit, same as any other drug. Its inebriating effects dull the mind and senses. This might make one feel “happy” or “relaxed” but only on a superficial level. Enjoying the taste stems purely from association.

On this point I strongly disagree. Winston Churchill described prohibition as…

an affront to the whole history of mankind

Yes inhibitions are lowered some with alcohol. You think a little differently and you get along a little better with others. In this way, many people believe alcohol helped build society as we know it. Some societies would even debate an idea while drinking, and then revisit the same idea while sober (or vice versa). These societies wanted to consider all possibilities. This is fundamentally why I think some people are so scared of alcohol when only consumed in moderation. It is the good ideas that come to people when they drink alcohol in moderation that are so scary to some.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Reasonable amounts of alcohol are benign or even beneficial.

This is true. Red wine for example has been shown to have beneficial effects if people are drinking a small amount regularly with meals. A small amount of whiskey also has medicinal uses.

 

[neophyte]

Any thoughts?

I’m a recovering addict with over 32 years clean, and even I think that your position is excessively harsh.

 

[clintbranam]

You know Allen Carr? I read his book about beating alcoholism and he says if you see alcohol for the vastly negative thing it is (in your life anyway) that you can kill the urge to drink it, consistently–rather than looking at it like something positive that you’re giving up. So that’s what led me to ask this question. Obviously, as the Precious Blood, there’s nothing equivalent, in terms of something positive for me. That dichotomy struck me and I wondered if anyone had ever written anything intelligent about it.

 

[DeniseNY]

I hope this is an accurate quote:

Why did Our Blessed Lord use bread and wine as the elements of this Memorial? First of all, because no two substances in nature better symbolize unity than bread and wine. As bread is made from a multiplicity of grains of wheat, and wine is made from a multiplicity of grapes, so the many who believe are one in Christ. Second, no two substances in nature have to suffer more to become what they are than bread and wine. Wheat has to pass through the rigors of winter, be ground beneath the Calvary of a mill, and then subjected to purging fire before it can become bread. Grapes in their turn must be subjected to the Gethsemane of a wine press and have their life crushed from them to become wine. Thus, do they symbolize the Passion and Sufferings of Christ, and the condition of Salvation, for Our Lord said unless we die to ourselves we cannot live in Him. A third reason is that there are no two substances in nature which have more traditionally nourished man than bread and wine. In bringing these elements to the altar, men are equivalently bringing themselves. When bread and wine are taken or consumed, they are changed into man’s body and blood. But when He took bread and wine, He changed them into Himself.”

― Fulton J. Sheen, Life of Christ

If someone knows if this is a misquote, please let me know and I will delete.

 

[Camehome4john6]

. (By the way, you might show a little patience and empathy–

You could try showing a little more respect and be less flippant to those trying to help you, too.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

By the way, you might show a little patience and empathy–you have no idea where I’m coming from with this question.

I’m going off your initial post in the thread, which was basically a rant against alcohol and you wanting to “demonize” it.

If this post is really about you or someone you love trying to stay sober, then it would have been helpful to make that clear in your initial post, and also recognize the fact that for many of us, alcohol is not problematic and we are not going to be open to a Scripturally-based Church teaching/ tradition being labeled “Demonic”.

I am sorry if you don’t like the responses on the thread, but that doesn’t mean they lack “empathy” when you did not indicate in any of your initial posts why you needed empathy and instead framed this all as a philosophical question you were pondering. Your replies have also been pretty brusque in several cases.

 

[clintbranam]

Look, it’s all good and you’re right to point out that demonize is the wrong word. I was really just curious if people knew of any good writings on the subject. The Church is home to probably millions of alcoholics who probably question why the most important thing in their life (the Precious Blood), is also the cause of so much pain. I probably should have phrased this differently, you’re right.

 

[Fauken]

The Church is home to probably millions of alcoholics who probably question why the most important thing in their life (the Precious Blood), is also the cause of so much pain.

“Probably millions”? Where are you getting millions from?

 

[clintbranam]

Just a guess–there are a lot of alcoholics out there. NIH says you have 14M alcoholics in the US–if 20% are Catholic, that’s three million right there.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

The Church is home to probably millions of alcoholics who probably question why the most important thing in their life (the Precious Blood), is also the cause of so much pain.

First, as Fauken said, do you have a source for this being questioned by so many Catholic alcoholics?

Second, it’s important to note that if they are not priests, they never have to consume consecrated wine, and they receive the Precious Blood as well as the Body of Christ when they consume the consecrated host made of wheat bread. The consecrated host contains both Body and Blood of Christ. So the Precious Blood can still be the most important thing in their life and they would never have to receive it in the form of consecrated wine.

 

[Fauken]

Just a guess–there are a lot of alcoholics out there. NIH says you have 14M alcoholics in the US–if 20% are Catholic, that’s three million right there.

Where did you get that 20% of the 14 million alcoholics in the US are Catholic? Are they practicing Catholics or simply identifying as Catholic?

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Okay, let’s just presume there’s a large number of practicing Catholic alcoholics.

I sincerely doubt that all of them have the exact same attitude towards the concept of wine being used in the celebration of the Eucharist.
It’s likely some of them (particularly clergy) understand very well the Scriptural and theological reasons for the use of wine, and would not question why it was used.
Others of them might just accept that it’s used and accept that they personally need to avoid that form of Holy Communion because of their personal disease, and be comforted by the fact that they can still receive the Precious Blood simply by consuming the consecrated host.
Some of them might agree with you.
And still others might have some view that neither you nor I have contemplated.

 

[on_the_hill]

See, thing is, we need food: food is sustenance. It seems natural that we crave it. And natural to look at those cravings as temptation of the flesh.

What’s the difference between wine and grape juice? Alcohol. What’s alcohol? It’s really nothing but a neurotoxic poison which is the opposite of sustenance. It’s bad for us. That’s why it strikes me as curious Jesus chose it.

Why are you pushing so hard on this perspective?

 

[on_the_hill]

clintbranam:

Just a guess–there are a lot of alcoholics out there. NIH says you have 14M alcoholics in the US–if 20% are Catholic, that’s three million right there.

Where did you get that 20% of the 14 million alcoholics in the US are Catholic? Are they practicing Catholics or simply identifying as Catholic?

It’s probably higher than that. You know what those Catholics are like. . . . .