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mackbrislawn
Guest
I agree with a lot you have said here; I’ll make my comments and see what you think of them.
What is the process, then?
You hear the word, believe in it, and understand that you are in sin; you repent of your sin, and convert or turn from it. However, even after repenting and converting, your sins are still on you. Converting and repenting are not enough, because your sins nevertheless remain. And, there is nothing you can do to get them off. But, here’s the good news! Christ’s blood can get them off! The actual mechanism, or appeal, by which Christ’s blood gets them off is baptism. The baptismal waters wash and clear your conscience of the dirt of your sins. This is expressly stated at 1Peter 3:21,22… You cannot be saved unless your sins are forgiven and that is done via baptism as shown by Acts 2:38.
So, sure, baptism is an outward sign but it is also the vehicle for removal of sins as well. Of course it is the Holy Spirit that leads you to repent and be baptized. And, if while the Holy Spirit is leading you to be baptized, you instead get run over by a truck, I think God will take that into account.
That’s right, Paul thought his mission was to preach, not baptize, although he admitted to some baptisms. He didn’t do much baptizing himself, in my opinion, because he left that to his travelling companions. Paul did not travel alone, but had others with him, and they did the actual baptizing. So, I do not infer from Paul that baptism is not connected with salvation.
Yes, obviously one can receive the Holy Spirit before baptism, as in Acts 10. Acts 10 shows how Gentiles are also to be accepted. That the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit was a way to show the apostles that, yes, Jesus is for Gentiles too. But, notice, Peter nevertheless commanded them to be baptized anyway! Receiving the Holy Spirit was not enough, their sins had to be washed away also.
Well, that’s my view. Actually, I have a hard time understanding why some insist that baptism is symbolic, in the light of so many scriptural passages otherwise.
First, why did Christ command baptism? Think about it. There must be some serious reason for Him to command it. Does Christ think of it merely as an outward sign of conversion? Is that a serious enough reason to command it? Because, after all, scripture never says anything to the effect that baptism is just an outward sign.That’s why we see it the way we do
What is the process, then?
You hear the word, believe in it, and understand that you are in sin; you repent of your sin, and convert or turn from it. However, even after repenting and converting, your sins are still on you. Converting and repenting are not enough, because your sins nevertheless remain. And, there is nothing you can do to get them off. But, here’s the good news! Christ’s blood can get them off! The actual mechanism, or appeal, by which Christ’s blood gets them off is baptism. The baptismal waters wash and clear your conscience of the dirt of your sins. This is expressly stated at 1Peter 3:21,22… You cannot be saved unless your sins are forgiven and that is done via baptism as shown by Acts 2:38.
So, sure, baptism is an outward sign but it is also the vehicle for removal of sins as well. Of course it is the Holy Spirit that leads you to repent and be baptized. And, if while the Holy Spirit is leading you to be baptized, you instead get run over by a truck, I think God will take that into account.
That’s right, Paul thought his mission was to preach, not baptize, although he admitted to some baptisms. He didn’t do much baptizing himself, in my opinion, because he left that to his travelling companions. Paul did not travel alone, but had others with him, and they did the actual baptizing. So, I do not infer from Paul that baptism is not connected with salvation.
Yes, obviously one can receive the Holy Spirit before baptism, as in Acts 10. Acts 10 shows how Gentiles are also to be accepted. That the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit was a way to show the apostles that, yes, Jesus is for Gentiles too. But, notice, Peter nevertheless commanded them to be baptized anyway! Receiving the Holy Spirit was not enough, their sins had to be washed away also.
Well, that’s my view. Actually, I have a hard time understanding why some insist that baptism is symbolic, in the light of so many scriptural passages otherwise.
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Monica4316
Guest
my response to that would be something like… “we receive Jesus into ourselves in the Eucharist. How much more personal can it get?”
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Kristin234
Guest
When we “spout” that Jesus is our personal Lord and Savior we do mean that we have to obey him. I have never known anyone who has said that line and truly meant it and went on to ignore everything God tells us to do. We know very well that we can’t just sit back and say we accepted him and then go on living the same life we had been living before we accepted him. I have gone to many Protestant churches and all of them agree on that and so does my Protestant school. And saying that we go and spout this as if we just say it without thinking what it truly means is very offensive.
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DLG123
Guest
Great Post:thumbsup:
I have heard it shortened and never thought of it like that! This is why I love CAF!
Peace
DLG
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Carlan
Guest
Meltzerboy, that is very good for the most part, are you well on your way to sticking around for good? I love it that your know.
Peace, Carlan
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Revert_43
Guest
I may be reaching a little bit here but I’ll try. I’d defer you to “The Salvation Controversy” by Jimmy Akin for specifics.
Many times when I’ve had these conversations folks believe that because they’ve said the sinners prayer they have a personal relationship ship with Jesus and are saved. The scriptural passages they will quote show salvation to be a past tense thing. But, as Catholics, we use all of scripture and all of scripture shows salvation as a past, present and future process, not a one time event.
So as Catholics we have been saved, are being saved and hope to be saved. And throughout this “process” of being saved we cultivate our relationship with Jesus. And it’s through our relationship with Jesus through this process we go to heaven.
So, say, if somebody commits a mortal sin and dies then they’ve broken their relationship with Jesus and won’t go to heaven. So how all the pices fit together?
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Bernadette173
Guest
I agree, I couldn’t have said it better myself.
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Carlan
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Bernadette173
Guest
The pieces fit together in that God knows we cling to Him out of love and the need for guidance, if we disobey like children do, we will be disciplined and if it means being seperated from truth, light and love, so be it. It does not however state that all sinners will go to Hell, Hell can be simply being separated from God in a distant place, not that the place [Hell] is any real place at all, but rather a sense of abandonment and sadness also. And this is what the sacrament of confession is for. To provide the last chance to make ammends with God before you are judged in God’s presence.
Peace to you all.
Bernadette173
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rinnie
Guest
I have a cousin who always said that to me. I said Oh Really. Where is that in the bible? I love to play that card, I call it my protestant card. Everytime I say something I hear where is that in the bible.
But here is what I say according to my bible it says that Jesus Christ came down to save sinners and yep Here is the scripture. 1 Tim 2:15.
Now you show me where he says he is only your personal Lord and Savior. I kinda missed him even mentioning your name.
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Nicea325
Guest
I have a cousin who always said that to me. I said Oh Really. Where is that in the bible? I love to play that card, I call it my protestant card. Everytime I say something I hear where is that in the bible.
But here is what I say according to my bible it says that Jesus Christ came down to save sinners and yep Here is the scripture. 1 Tim 2:15.
Now you show me where he says he is only your personal Lord and Savior. I kinda missed him even mentioning your name.
Yeah when I get the famous question: Where is that Catholic teaching in the Bible, I usually respond: When you tell me where the Bible teaches everything must be in the Bible…
How about owning a Bible in English? Where is that in the Bible? Here is the look I receive: 
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mackbrislawn
Guest
Perhaps it is offensive, and my apologies. But, darn it, that is exactly the way it comes across. It comes across as once you have accepted Jesus into your heart, you are saved and that is that. And Catholics are then mocked because Catholics believe works are somehow necessary.
It actually appears that is what is meant, no works are necessary, just faith. However, you have just said that what accepting Jeus as Lord and Savior truly means is to live a life of faith. And this, I take to mean, you do not attain salvation without living a life of faith. If you do not live up to your promise of obedience to Jesus, He will not save you. Certainly not once saved, always saved.
Yes, the word “spout” is a bit loaded, and I regret it. Although, I did deliberately choose that word because it is loaded that way. It has connotations of saying something without realizing a complete understanding of what it means. You understand it, but do others?
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coco2
Guest
I am Catholic and when someone asks me if I am saved, I look them straight in the eye and say “yes” because I am. If they ask if Jesus is my personal saviour, I look them straight in the eye and say “yes” because He is.
Then they ask me WHEN was I saved… and that one stumps me, because they always want a date. When? The day I was baptized? confirmed? Next time I am asked I am going to say, " On the day that Jesus died on the cross for my sins." That is the day we were all “saved”.
By the way, I have met several evangelicals who think they are saved which gives them license to live any old way they want…sinning without a second thought.
Then they ask me WHEN was I saved… and that one stumps me, because they always want a date. When? The day I was baptized? confirmed? Next time I am asked I am going to say, " On the day that Jesus died on the cross for my sins." That is the day we were all “saved”.
By the way, I have met several evangelicals who think they are saved which gives them license to live any old way they want…sinning without a second thought.
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onenow1
Guest
Hi, Monica, exactly my thoughts:thumbsup: John 6: Jesus explains very precisely how we attain life.my response to that would be something like… “we receive Jesus into ourselves in the Eucharist. How much more personal can it get?”
God Bless
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Carlan
Guest
You make it sound not so bad if you get caught in serious disobedience before your opportunity to make amends to God. The CCC teaches us , to die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him forever by our own free choice.
This state of definitive self -exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell”.1033 CCC, Matthew 25:31-46
I would think that none of us should look at the possibility lightly,
Peace, CArlan
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minkymurph
Guest
‘Protestant card’ - I like that.I have a cousin who always said that to me. I said Oh Really. Where is that in the bible? I love to play that card, I call it my protestant card. Everytime I say something I hear where is that in the bible.
But here is what I say according to my bible it says that Jesus Christ came down to save sinners and yep Here is the scripture. 1 Tim 2:15.
Now you show me where he says he is only your personal Lord and Savior. I kinda missed him even mentioning your name.
I’ve often said something similar.
'Okay, you believe you’re saved. That’s fine. Your free to believe you’re saved - but how do you know all those verses in the bible you are quoting refer to you personally? You’re names not there. In addition, the bible doesn’t say anywhere that unless you believe you cannot loose your salvation. Therefore, that belief cannot be demanded of others.
Also, ‘if we can all interpret scripture for ourselves and need no guidance, that means I can interpret the bible for myself. So who’s to say my interpretation of the scriptures you have quoted is wrong?’ The response to that is often, ‘well then you can’t say you’re interpretation is right, you’res might be wrong’ My answer is, '‘no, I can’t and yes, it might be wrong, which is why I can’t insist others must believe my interpretation to gain salvation.’
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minkymurph
Guest
Yes, many Fundamentalists I talk to seem to overlook the fact that not only was the printing press not invented until about the 16th century, and the fact that not only did people not have a complete NT in their own language for hundreds of years, but for at least 20 years after Jesus died none of the NT had been written.
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rinnie
Guest
Yes I always get that also. That is when I say if 2 Catholics argue about scripture we do as the Scripture says take it to the Church and Father puts it to rest.‘Protestant card’ - I like that.
I’ve often said something similar.
'Okay, you believe you’re saved. That’s fine. Your free to believe you’re saved - but how do you know all those verses in the bible you are quoting refer to you personally? You’re names not there. In addition, the bible doesn’t say anywhere that unless you believe you cannot loose your salvation. Therefore, that belief cannot be demanded of others.
Also, ‘if we can all interpret scripture for ourselves and need no guidance, that means I can interpret the bible for myself. So who’s to say my interpretation of the scriptures you have quoted is wrong?’ The response to that is often, ‘well then you can’t say you’re interpretation is right, you’res might be wrong’ My answer is, '‘no, I can’t and yes, it might be wrong, which is why I can’t insist others must believe my interpretation to gain salvation.’
Then I get what makes the Priest any different then you. I say simple. If I say to you I had a bad day, why did I have a bad day? Are you qualified to tell me why or I more qualified to answer that question.
Okay then the Apostles taught the scripture directly to the Priests and the Priests passed it on directly word of mouth to explain what was meant by the scripture.
Now back to the question at bay, do you have Apostolic Succession, Do I? But ah… Does the Priest! Bingo There you go.
Just as I do not have authority to interpret scripture and my friend does not the Priest does simply because he is taught it and study the readings of the early Fathers of the Church.
Then I tell them If I would ask his OPINION then we could have 3 wrong answers. But Father does not give HIS opinion he teaches what the Apostles taught.
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Kristin234
Guest
I completely get what you mean and I agree with you. There are many Protestants out there who think that they do not need to do anything because they are “saved” and that is unbiblical. However, it is not fair to generalize because there are so so many of us who are trying to our best to live the life that God tells us to.
I could say the same thing about Catholics. A lot of Catholics I know believe that they can sin all they want and all they need to do is go to confession and mass every week. I know that is not how it works, but I know so many Catholics that do believe that. I actually believed that until my friend converted to Catholicism and explained it to me. Of all my Catholic friends only one had it right.
Every Protestant church that I have gone to believes that you must obey God and follow his commandments until the day we die. Every Protestant that I know sees it that way. Why go to church and read the Bible if we can sin all we want because we are saved? My church even had a series on how your life needs to completely change when you accept Christ as your Lord and Savior.
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