Jesus as True God and True Man

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Christ said” I am the Way the Truth and the Life ”” No one comes to my father,except through me. “
 
Pattylt said:
And I say, no He’s not. I say He is not God at all. That’s a fact!
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I think the Old Testament talks about Jesus so much that it’s impossible to see Him as anything other than the prophesied Messiah and God. For example, in the Psalms, David addresses God, and then he says “Your God” - well, who is God’s God? The Hebrew is very clear (Elohim Elohekha). To me, this is a reference to Jesus (God the Son) and God the Father, but if you don’t believe so I’d be curious to hear what you think of it:

“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of Thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows.” (Psalm 45:6-7)
 
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First of all, the psalms are often poetic and repetition was typical of its genre. So, there can be your way of reading it and the Jewish way of reading it. Before Jesus, no one read the Christian Jesus prophesies as such. No one. The parts that were about the messiah, actually have the word messiah in them and don’t seem to be talking about Jesus. This has been an issue from the start of Christianity. Isaiah and all the rest were never interpreted as messianic until Christians read them that way.

Christians co opted the Hebrew Jewish scriptures and then claim the Jews didn’t understand their own bible. I hope you can understand why the Jews might have been a bit peeved about it. Imagine someone today claiming the New Testament isn’t talking about some Jesus and him being the son of God but give it a completely different interpretation and meaning…I do believe Christians would be a bit up in arms about that. Same for the Jews.

Second, I really don’t have a problem with any scripture as I believe all of it is man made stories about their theology and culture. I don’t believe much of it happened…at least as stated in the Bible. It is all theological fiction to me. When I lost my faith many years ago and later finally accepted its loss, I went into research mode on the Bible and it’s history…you can’t unlearn what you’ve learned. Sorry!

Another thing to remember is there was no such thing as “the Jews”. There were many varieties…some with a concept of life after death and some without. Some were messianic and some were not. Some only followed the first five books of Torah and some included what Christians call the Old Testament. Always make sure when referring to those historical times to make sure you say “some Jews” and not “the Jews”. @ReaderT, this is for everyone…you didn’t do this, just to be clear! :hugs:
 
Pattylt said:
You are a believer, I am not. Your way is right for you but not for me, and my way is right for me and not for you. I’m not wrong, you’re not wrong…we’re just different.
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I would respectfully disagree with the highlighted section. Since you hold diametric different points of view on this subject, there are three possibilities. You PattyIt are right and @Cathoholic is wrong. Cathoholic is right and you PattyIt are wrong. You are both wrong. What is not possible is that you are both “not wrong”,

Pax
 
FiveLinden . . .
. . . I find it remarkable that Matthew, Mark and Luke never say that Jesus is God
in any sort of direct way. . . .
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Cathoholic . . .
FiveLinden. What do you think are the “indirect ways” Matthew, Mark, and Luke affirm Jesus’ Divinity?
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FiveLinden . . .
I think there is a lot of confusion about the use of the team ‘Son of God’.
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Cathoholic again . . . .
FiveLinden. What do you think
are the “indirect ways” Matthew, Mark, and Luke affirm Jesus’ Divinity?
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Bold added for emphasis.

FiveLinden . . .
Confused…
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Well are you affirming Matthew, Mark, and Luke are asserting Jesus’ Divinity in their Gospels?

(If not why did you put the “indirect” in your statement??)
 
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fredystairs said:
What is not possible is that you are both “not wrong”,
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It’s obvious, however that I think I’m right and he thinks he’s right. All he actually wants to state is that he’s right and I’m wrong. It certainly isn’t a way to dialog but I doubt he wants that anyway. That’s ok. I give him the same permission he gave me. 😇
 
PattyIt . . .
Before Jesus, no one read the Christian Jesus prophesies as such. No one.
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This is false.

St. Paul used these same Scriptures to explain Jesus to Jewish people in many synagogues.

Now I admit this was “after” Jesus’ Incarnation, death, and Resurrection . . . But my point is, if this were a complete novelty, they would not have accepted Jesus.

Look also at the opening chapters in the Book of Acts.

I agree. Many of the elements of the prophecies are cryptic. But along with grace and revelation (as in God’s “revealing” not as in the book of “Revelation”).

In Luke 24 on the road to Emmaus, Jewish people who were disciples of Jesus, also “got it” when Jesus explained all the places where He was in the Old Testament.

But my argument is more basic than any of this.
I will develop it more when I can get some more answers from @FiveLinden.
 
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Cathoholic said:
St. Paul used these same Scriptures to explain Jesus to Jewish people in many synagogues.
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Do you know what a Pesher is? Even in the Jewish Peshers, no one seemed to find a Jesus type messiah. This type of Pesher analysis arrived during and after Jesus but not before then. Paul was quite an expert at this technique, by the way. Brilliant even.
 
PattyIt . . . .
Then you will never understand any point of view except your own.
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You’re wrong.

Now PattyIt resorting to ad hominems against me (which I am going to attempt to ignore) . . . .
I suspect you like it that way.
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Jeanne_S said:
Christ said” I am the Way the Truth and the Life ”” No one comes to my father,except through me. “
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This implies fairly strongly that he and the Father are different people. It does not state that they are simultaneously the same.
 
Vico said:
Did you see that Paul also believed in the divinity of Christ? (see Colossians 2:9.)
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Yes I know what Paul said - here I am talking about the Gospel writers, who claim to have information about Jesus before he died. Paul does not. He believed he had an encounter with the risen Jesus.
 
FiveLinden . . .
You need to remind me of what answers you need. As far as I can see I have answered them all!
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Here it is again . . .
FiveLinden . . .
. . . I find it remarkable that Matthew, Mark and Luke never say that Jesus is God
in any sort of direct way . . . .
Click to expand...
Cathoholic . . .
FiveLinden. What do you think are the “ indirect ways” Matthew, Mark, and Luke affirm Jesus’ Divinity? . . .
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Well are you affirming Matthew, Mark, and Luke are asserting Jesus’ Divinity in their Gospels?

(If not why did you put the “indirect” in your statement??)
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So here’s what I said way back in the thread.

It might be better if you responded.
FiveLinden said:
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Cathoholic:
FiveLinden. What do you think are the “indirect ways” Matthew, Mark, and Luke affirm Jesus’ Divinity?
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I think there is a lot of confusion about the use of the team ‘Son of God’. Christians seem to think it means ‘second person of the Trinity’. I don’t see any reason to think that is what the writers of the first three Gospels thought. But later theology, read back into the text, makes it possible for people to convince themselves that the writers believed Jesus was God. And there is similar confusion over the term ‘Messiah’. As Bart Ehrman has pointed out there was absolutely no Jewish expectation that the Messiah would be God. So if Jesus said he was the Messiah, he was telling people he was not God, because his listeners did not expect the Messiah to be God.
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FiveLinden said:
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Vico:
Did you see that Paul also believed in the divinity of Christ? (see Colossians 2:9.)
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Yes I know what Paul said - here I am talking about the Gospel writers, who claim to have information about Jesus before he died. Paul does not. He believed he had an encounter with the risen Jesus.
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And Peter also. Also in the Gospel of John 20:18, Saint Thomas replies: “My Lord and My God!” In Acts 7:59, Saint Stephen’s reply is recorded “And they stoned Stephen, invoking and saying: Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
 
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FiveLinden said:
I think there is a lot of confusion about the use of the team ‘Son of God’. Christians seem to think it means ‘second person of the Trinity’. I don’t see any reason to think that is what the writers of the first three Gospels thought. But later theology, read back into the text, makes it possible for people to convince themselves that the writers believed Jesus was God. And there is similar confusion over the term ‘Messiah’. As Bart Ehrman has pointed out there was absolutely no Jewish expectation that the Messiah would be God. So if Jesus said he was the Messiah, he was telling people he was not God, because his listeners did not expect the Messiah to be God.
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Jews were as much confused and there failure to identify the Messiah, was also prophesied to them. What would you say about this prophesy:

Isa 40:3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the LORD; Make straight in the desert A highway for our God.

Whose fulfilment is:

Mark 1: 1 This is the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.a 2 As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:b

“Behold, I will send My messenger ahead of You,
who will prepare Your way.”c
3 “A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for Him.’. 4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins…
9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

But don’t get me wrong, this still doesn’t mean Jesus is God almighty.
 
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