Jesus as True God and True Man

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Cathoholic said:
This is irrelevant. I don’t care what Bart Ehrman thinks.
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Then you don’t care about the thinking of one of the modern greats of New Testament scholarship who meticulously details his arguments and is open to change in his views as others challenge them. One of the strengths of Catholicism is that it has always said it accepts science and true scholarship. In rejecting someone’s work on the basis of their faith do you not stand in opposition to the fine Catholic tradition?
 
Pattylt said:
Jews knew exactly what their own scriptures meant to them. Christianity views them differently and interprets them differently. Please don’t assume they were ignorant or blind.
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Except that Christians have to believe that, ignorant/blind and malevolent is the role ascribed in the drama.
 
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It’s the role articulated in the drama. The gospels make the Pharisees and Sadducees at that place and time to look foolish. Have you read the gospels? You can’t really come away thinking anything else.

But of course Jesus and all his apostles were Jewish. So how can Christians says that Jews didn’t know their own scripture?

The gospels are talking about a very small group of Jews who had authority during one period of time. Surely a reasonable person does not think this small group is representative of all Jews.
 
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FiveLinden said:
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Noose001:
Mark 1:1-9 Mark describes the fulfilment of these two prophesies by telling as the encounter between Jesus and John.
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For this to be any sort of proof of the writer believing Jesus was God, you would have to establish that the word ‘Lord’ meant, to the writer, ‘God’.
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Simple. Mark does not think, he is simply telling us how the fulfillment of the two prophesies came to be; 1. Malachi 3:1 where Almighty God says He is coming to earth and 2, Isaiah 40:3 where Isaiah is saying prepare the way for God.
So the Lord that Mark is talking about is indeed the Almighty God (Mal 3:1) and God (Isa 40:3).

But even so, this doesn’t make Jesus God because the mystery is in how God creates.
 
Pattylt said:
Please, they interpreted them differently. Not wrongly. The Jews have entire writings on what the OT says and means called the Talmud.
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This again, is a very dilute argument.
  1. The first batch of Christians were purely Jews, were they misguided from their own interpretation?
  2. The Jews had no liberty of interpreting their scriptures because 60% of their scripture is prophesy and prophesy is only interpreted in light of its fulfillment which is why Christianity has an edge as it comes during prophesy fulfillment era.
For example; It is written several places in the Jewish scripture that God will come on earth.
You don’t have to interpret such, you just have to wait for its fulfillment. It is the fulfillment that the Jews and Christians are divided on, whereas the Christians are saying it is fulfilled in Jesus, Jews are still waiting.
  1. How do they interpret the verses in their own scriptures prophesying their misunderstanding and their rejection of Messiah? Yes, it is prophesied severally that they will reject the Messiah.
One such example is Zachariah 12:10 where God says He is going to be pierced and killed. Christians don’t interpret this prophesy, they see its fulfillment in Jesus. Jews also don’t interpret this prophesy, they are still waiting for someone (else other than Jesus) to be pierced and killed.
 
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Kaninchen said:
For you, we’re discussing scripture/reportage, for me we’re having a discussion about a particular piece of literature, a construct, designed to carry a message.
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  1. Doesn’t matter, to me the NT is the fulfillment of the OT and thus consistent with the OT.
  2. Fulfillment of a prophesy doesn’t have to be written but it has to be witnessed. It was and was written for our benefit, even if it wasn’t written, it would still be taught as fulfilled prophesy.
 
Kaninchen said:
Or one might say that the NT was designed to do the job.
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Like i said, design or not is inconsequential.
Example:
In the OT it is prophesied that Messiah will come and one of the signs will be ’ a virgin will conceive and give birth to a son’. Whether someone writes to us about a virgin conceiving or not, it still happened and it was witnessed and the news spread.

So what exactly are you trying to say.
 
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FiveLinden said:
writing about a human being
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Not wanting to derail this thread I started a new one
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Do we Say Jesus is a human being? Sacred Scripture
Not wanting to derail that thread, let me start this new one here. Many will say that Jesus is a human being. And, I know, that at least some of them, are meaning correctly that Jesus is fully human, that He truly has a human nature. I understand that wording can be defended, BUT Is that really a wise choice of words ? Note that Jesus is a Divine Person. Person is defined as a being, therefore Jesus is a Divine Being. He has both a Divine Nature and a Human Nature. He is One Person who …
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John
 
Kaninchen said:
A lot of it is literature, the Tanakh (OT to you) is divided into Law/Prophets/Writings.
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The parts in Daniel about the timelines until the Messiah comes, are they prophesy, literature or just writings?
 
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