Jesus as True God and True Man

[Noose001]

Let’s be clear: I am saying that the writers of the first three Gospels in no way clearly say that Jesus is GOD. This is difference from saying ‘divine’. There is noting in Mark 1 that says Jesus is God. Not a word.

You have to define ‘clearly say’ because Mark 1 above every other text, claims that Jesus is God. I bet the clarity depends on the level of understanding but Mark 1 is as clear as glass.

All you have to do is go to Mal 3:1/Isa 40:3 and see who is talking or who is being spoken of as per Mark.

 

[Kaninchen]

It is very important to our discussion

No, it’s not, it’s just that you want to ascribe something else to a matter of minor historical interest (other than to scholars).

This is your problem, not mine.

 

[Noose001]

No, it’s not, it’s just that you want to ascribe something else to a matter of minor historical interest (other than to scholars).

This is your problem, not mine.

No it’s not. You have been talking about your text and now you are trying to run away from your text. If Isaiah is a prophet and he prophesied to king Ahaz (Isaiah 7), where do we see the fulfillment of this prophesy in your text? When and where did king Ahaz witness a young woman give birth to a son named Immanuel?

 

[Kaninchen]

You have been talking about your text and now you are trying to run away from your text.

No, you’re trying to take over the text for entirely different purposes and I’m not playing your game.

 

[Noose001]

No, you’re trying to take over the text for entirely different purposes and I’m not playing your game.

No, you are trying to run away which is fine.

“… Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: the young woman will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel…”

@Kaninchen , did the above happen and witnessed by Ahaz?

 

[Kaninchen]

No, you are trying to run away which is fine.

No, I’m standing quite firm, I’m not going to go along with your annexation of the text for your purposes.

 

[FiveLinden]

Mark 1 above every other text, claims that Jesus is God

Please quote the text to which you refer and point to the term that means, in your mind, ‘God’ and tell me why you believe it means that.

 

[Noose001]

No, I’m standing quite firm, I’m not going to go along with your annexation of the text for your purposes.

Stand firm because there’s no indication in the text that it happened. Either what we have is a lie or the whole context was a prophesy.

 

[Kaninchen]

Stand firm because there’s no indication in the text that it happened. Either what we have is a lie or the whole context was a prophesy.

You seem to have a terribly simplistic/mechanistic approach to ancient writings.

I blame Josh McDowell.

 

[Montrose]

Please quote the text to which you refer and point to the term that means, in your mind, ‘God’ and tell me why you believe it means that.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

 

[Noose001]

Please quote the text to which you refer and point to the term that means, in your mind, ‘God’ and tell me why you believe it means that.

Mark 1: [ 1 ]This is the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.[a][ 2 ]As it is written in Isaiah the prophet:
“Behold, I will send My messenger ahead of You,
who will prepare Your way.”
[ 3 ]“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for Him.’”
[ 4 ]John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins…
[ 9 ]In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

Mark is making a reference to:

Mal 3: [ 1 ]“Behold, I will send My messenger, who will prepare the way before Me.[a]Then the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to His temple—the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight—see, He is coming,” says the LORD of Hosts.

And

Isa 40: [ 3 ]A voice of one calling:
“Prepare the way for the LORD in the wilderness;
make a straight highway for our God in the desert.

Both Isaiah and Malachi are saying God is coming, so Mark is not thinking or interpreting, he is simply telling us what happened with Jesus was what was prophesied. Clear as glass.

 

[Noose001]

You seem to have a terribly simplistic/mechanistic approach to ancient writings.

Do you have anything else?

 

[FiveLinden]

Both Isaiah and Malachi are saying God is coming, so Mark is not thinking or interpreting, he is simply telling us what happened with Jesus was what was prophesied. Clear as glass

he pain is that ‘Mark’ might have thought that he was saying Jesus was God, through obscure allusion to prophecies, but he might not. I can’t accept that someone who thought the subject of their writing was the creator of the universe, and that his writing might be the only source of information for others, would not have said so directly, i.e. ‘Jesus, who is God’. John clearly thought it necessary to say so and did so at length. A far more likely explanation of ‘Mark’'s writing is that he was not aware of the view that Jesus was God, and that while he thought Jesus was the Messiah, and marshalled prophecies to reinforce this, he did not think Jesus was God.

 

[FiveLinden]

FiveLinden:

Please quote the text to which you refer and point to the term that means, in your mind, ‘God’ and tell me why you believe it means that.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

OK, there is the text. Why do you think the term ‘Son of God’ = ‘God’?

 

[Shakuhachi]

Wider meaning of son and children from our evening prayer tonight form John,
Think of the love that the Father has lavished on us,
by letting us be called God’s children;
and that is what we are.
My dear people, we are already the children of God
but what we are to be in the future has not yet been revealed;
all we know is, that when it is revealed
we shall be like him
because we shall see him as he really is.

 

[Cathoholic]

FiveLinden . .

There does Dr Ehrman deny entropy and affirm perpetual motion? I have never seem him write on physics.

He doesn’t need to. You can apply principles and see how he (and others) thinks.

OK. What (Who) do you think animates the cosmos right now?
How are those electrons revolving around the protons in front of you
right this second?

 

[FiveLinden]

OK. What (Who) do you think animates the cosmos right now?
How are those electrons revolving around the protons in front of you
right this second?

I don’t know that anything animates them. Why does something have to animate them? (Outside 12th century philosophy I mean)

 

[Cathoholic]

FiveLinden . . .

Let’s be clear: I am saying that the writers of the first three Gospels in no way clearly say that Jesus is GOD.

Sure they do. Here is St. Matthew clearly saying Jesus has a Divine nature . . . .

MATTHEW 27:62-64a 62 Next day, that is, after the day of Preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate 63 and said, "Sir, we remember how that impostor said, while he was still alive, ‘After three days I will rise again.’ 64 Therefore order the sepulchre to be made secure until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal him away, and tell the people, 'He has risen from the dead . . .

MATTHEW 28:5-7a 5 But the angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead . . . .

MATTHEW 28:16 16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshipped (prosekynesan) him; but some doubted.

In Revelation 7:11 those in Heaven worship or prosekynesan God.
Likewise in Revelation 11:16 falling on their faces to worship (prosekynesan ) GOD.

Q: WHO were they WORSHIPING in Heaven?

A: GOD!

In John 4, the woman from Samaria talks about how their Fathers Worshipped (prosekynesan) the one true God on Mount Gerizim

JOHN 4:19-20 19 The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped (prosekynesan) on this mountain; and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.”

St. Matthew clearly is telling us that Jesus is God.
St. Matthew is not telling us that Jesus is God the way Bart Ehrman desires.

Blessed be Jesus Christ, True God and True Man.

Don’t be fooled by such a slight of hand here.

There is MORE if you want.

 

[Noose001]

A far more likely explanation of ‘Mark’'s writing is that he was not aware of the view that Jesus was God, and that while he thought Jesus was the Messiah, and marshalled prophecies to reinforce this, he did not think Jesus was God.

1. Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, non were aware of what they were writing but were inspired to write what they wrote; they were not writing for themselves or those around them during that period but for the end times people i.e you and me. You can not claim John knew and Mark didn’t, there are a lot of things John said that indicate that Jesus is not God too.

John the baptist was inspired to identify and introduce the Messiah to the people but in the end he was still asking if Jesus was the Messiah. This is how inspiration works, it is meant for you (@FiveLinden) and not them but if it is meant for you and you still don’t understand then what can we say.

1. Non of them (Mark, Luke, Matthew, John and even Jesus Himself) identified Jesus directly as God because he isn’t yet he is. It is complicated and our understanding fails, because the mystery lies with the creation and like i said, God creates by becoming…

 

[Noose001]

@Kaninchen , I now realize that religions have an irreconcilable divide by design.There’s nothing anyone can do about this divide because it isn’t superficial but deeply rooted in the soul when people are taught how to think and relate from the onset. By design because it spells the end of humanity in the current universe.