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fredystairs
Guest
I understand.
Would you care to know how I know that God exists?
Would you care to know how I know that God exists?
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Pattylt
Guest
I’m going to be very honest here. Is your experience something that I can experience, too? Otherwise, you are just making a claim that I can’t investigate, have to take you at your word (a complete internet stranger to me) and have never experienced myself.
So, you decide if I will be able to do any of that and I will listen…or read in this case!
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fredystairs
Guest
Fair enough.
I know that God exists because you, PattyIt exist.
You have dignity that separates you from the rest of creation because you are made in the image and likeness of God:
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it.” Genesis 1: 26.
and you have been fearfully, wonderfully made:
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. Psalm 139:14.
This dignity makes you and every other person special. That’s how I know that God exists and that He loves us all.
Pax
I know that God exists because you, PattyIt exist.
You have dignity that separates you from the rest of creation because you are made in the image and likeness of God:
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it.” Genesis 1: 26.
and you have been fearfully, wonderfully made:
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. Psalm 139:14.
This dignity makes you and every other person special. That’s how I know that God exists and that He loves us all.
Pax
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Pattylt
Guest
…and yet, I see the same humanity in all humans as well and marvel at how we evolved to this point in time and will continue to evolve in a manner that I can’t even guess.
Humanity in general is marvelously made but so are all the apes and bugs and my dog. Individually, some of us aren’t quite as marvelously made, however. There are deformities of shape and mental capacities. There are errors in transcriptions that lead to the ravages of cancer. There are insects where their entire existence is dependent on entering another animal and devouring it from the inside. There are too many pain receptors in the animal anatomy causing excruciating pain.
Yet, our brains have developed to appreciate enormous beauty within a natural world that is amazing itself. I see no evidence of God in any of this. It’s a lovely idea born from humanity’s endless ability to imagine. It gives answers to questions we don’t understand and comforts millions of people. I’d not object to believing in it. I used to. Now, I don’t and haven’t for a long time. For all that God is supposed to do for those that genuinely ask, He left me in the dark for answers.
The fact that I am here on this earth in this time is something I accept as a fact. I’m from a long line of ancestors. Had any one of them not had the next in my line, I wouldn’t be here to ponder the odds. I just never would have been at all! And would never had known it.
Humanity in general is marvelously made but so are all the apes and bugs and my dog. Individually, some of us aren’t quite as marvelously made, however. There are deformities of shape and mental capacities. There are errors in transcriptions that lead to the ravages of cancer. There are insects where their entire existence is dependent on entering another animal and devouring it from the inside. There are too many pain receptors in the animal anatomy causing excruciating pain.
Yet, our brains have developed to appreciate enormous beauty within a natural world that is amazing itself. I see no evidence of God in any of this. It’s a lovely idea born from humanity’s endless ability to imagine. It gives answers to questions we don’t understand and comforts millions of people. I’d not object to believing in it. I used to. Now, I don’t and haven’t for a long time. For all that God is supposed to do for those that genuinely ask, He left me in the dark for answers.
The fact that I am here on this earth in this time is something I accept as a fact. I’m from a long line of ancestors. Had any one of them not had the next in my line, I wouldn’t be here to ponder the odds. I just never would have been at all! And would never had known it.
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Cathoholic
Guest
PattyIt . . . .
Perpetual motion is a superstition (No rational reason for “belief” in perpetual motion). It cannot be moving on its own (whatever you are considering for motion).
You are not superstitious PattyIt.
So how do you explain this?
How do you explain electrons in motion right this instant? (Or anything else in motion right this instant?)
Perpetual motion is a superstition (No rational reason for “belief” in perpetual motion). It cannot be moving on its own (whatever you are considering for motion).
You are not superstitious PattyIt.
So how do you explain this?
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Pattylt
Guest
I usually don’t. It’s not my field of study. I know that everything vibrates if that’s the correct word but I honestly don’t lose sleep over everything being in motion! I also don’t lose sleep over how gravity works, how light is both a wave and a particle or why I can’t see air. I’m told these things by people much smarter in those field and unless I witness otherwise, I take them at their word. If they start claiming something I can’t accept, then I research it to find the evidence.
I’ve witnesses Brownian motion so I accept the everything in motion concept for the time being…no real reason to doubt it.
I’ve witnesses Brownian motion so I accept the everything in motion concept for the time being…no real reason to doubt it.
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Cathoholic
Guest
PattyIt . . .
Los Angeles traffic.
But seriously though. Don’t the “whys” of such things intrigue you?
So have I.
Los Angeles traffic.
But seriously though. Don’t the “whys” of such things intrigue you?
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Pattylt
Guest
Honestly, no. Oh sure sometimes in trying to understand a paper or explanation of a scientific article I’ll do a deeper dive but as far as spending a great deal of thought over constant motion in the universe, nope. Now, medical questions will pique my interest a bit more but I’m just not that into astronomy and physics…interesting but not at the top of my list. Nor would the thought of constant motion existing in the universe necessarily lead me to God, either. Do you ever wonder if God vibrates?
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Cathoholic
Guest
@FiveLinden. You mentioned you were curious as to WHY people believe.
Come on back and let’s continue discussing.
There are proposals that conform to reason.
These are of course truths (in conformity with reason).
There are proposals that go against reason.
Such proposals are falsehoods.
But there are true proposals that
are above mere human reason.
Truths that we could never know on our own using our mere five senses.
These truths are called revealed truths or mysteries.
Two things.
We need reliable testimony and grace.
In the New and Final Covenant the world gets some new graces,
and when we are Baptized into Christ Jesus,
we then get even MORE graces.
We then have the Divine Trinitarian life dwelling within us in a special way. We now have those graces to believe truths that are ABOVE REASON or Mysteries in the way that we ought.
We can now believe mysteries in a way we could not believe without Baptism.
For example . . .
Some Truths that are ABOVE reason include God is ONE, yet THREE Divine Persons. God is Trinitarian.
You could study and have all kinds of science available to you, and you would always fall short. You could never “figure out” “The Holy Trinity”.
The supernaturalization of our Faith that we receive as a gift at Baptism, enables us to believe as we should.
Another example of a Truth that is ABOVE reason is The Incarnation.
That is where God almighty takes human flesh upon Himself. God takes upon Himself a Human nature (in addition to His Divine nature to be not only FULLY Divine as He was before, but now FULLY Human).
This is WHO Jesus is.
It is God almighty in the flesh.
And we believe this because of the testimony of the Resurrection and its subsequent witnesses are that reliable (the testimony of the Resurrection and its subsequent witnesses) in addition to Grace.
Come on back and let’s continue discussing.
There are proposals that conform to reason.
These are of course truths (in conformity with reason).
There are proposals that go against reason.
Such proposals are falsehoods.
But there are true proposals that
are above mere human reason.
Truths that we could never know on our own using our mere five senses.
These truths are called revealed truths or mysteries.
- Truths consistent with reason.
- Falsehoods (that go against reason.)
- Truths that are ABOVE reason. (Mysteries)
Two things.
We need reliable testimony and grace.
- Reliable Testimony
- Grace
In the New and Final Covenant the world gets some new graces,
and when we are Baptized into Christ Jesus,
we then get even MORE graces.
We then have the Divine Trinitarian life dwelling within us in a special way. We now have those graces to believe truths that are ABOVE REASON or Mysteries in the way that we ought.
We can now believe mysteries in a way we could not believe without Baptism.
For example . . .
Some Truths that are ABOVE reason include God is ONE, yet THREE Divine Persons. God is Trinitarian.
You could study and have all kinds of science available to you, and you would always fall short. You could never “figure out” “The Holy Trinity”.
The supernaturalization of our Faith that we receive as a gift at Baptism, enables us to believe as we should.
Another example of a Truth that is ABOVE reason is The Incarnation.
That is where God almighty takes human flesh upon Himself. God takes upon Himself a Human nature (in addition to His Divine nature to be not only FULLY Divine as He was before, but now FULLY Human).
This is WHO Jesus is.
It is God almighty in the flesh.
And we believe this because of the testimony of the Resurrection and its subsequent witnesses are that reliable (the testimony of the Resurrection and its subsequent witnesses) in addition to Grace.
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FiveLinden
Guest
There is very little I can say in response to this. What you are saying is not subject to testing and does not result from observation of reality. At best it can be said it does not contradict observed reality.
There are an infinite number of possible statements of this sort. Hindus make them Muslims make them. Scientologists have them. Astrologers make them. Homeopaths make them. Statements that are not testable, that is, that no possible observation can contradict are not scientific. They are, by definition, not worth discussing since there is nothing to discuss.
For example, I could tell you that I believe the earth and all creation was made just as it is, now, but only ten minutes ago by a God who decided to make it look old and to create us with all our apparent memories. You can say nothing to disprove this. It corresponds with all known reality.
This is how I see your statements. I am not saying I can disprove them. Just that I see no reason to believe statements that are, as you put it, ‘above reason’. All religions have these. Were I to decide to accept such ‘above-reasoning’, which one should I accept?
There are an infinite number of possible statements of this sort. Hindus make them Muslims make them. Scientologists have them. Astrologers make them. Homeopaths make them. Statements that are not testable, that is, that no possible observation can contradict are not scientific. They are, by definition, not worth discussing since there is nothing to discuss.
For example, I could tell you that I believe the earth and all creation was made just as it is, now, but only ten minutes ago by a God who decided to make it look old and to create us with all our apparent memories. You can say nothing to disprove this. It corresponds with all known reality.
This is how I see your statements. I am not saying I can disprove them. Just that I see no reason to believe statements that are, as you put it, ‘above reason’. All religions have these. Were I to decide to accept such ‘above-reasoning’, which one should I accept?
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Noose001
Guest
Excuses.
- Reality is not always testable or observable, darkness is real but is not testable or observable
- There’s nothing above reason, even beliefs are well within reason
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Cathoholic
Guest
FiveLinden . . .
Why not give me a list of those Resurrected from the dead with witnesses and testimony?
No. There are NO statements of this sort.
Why not give me a list of those Resurrected from the dead with witnesses and testimony?
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Dan_Defender
Guest
I agree. Scientists used to have a nice workable model for the expansion of the universe. Problem is, with more measurements the reality is, at this rate of accelerated expansion the universe would have collapsed and become a soup of particles. So they had to introduce dark matter and dark energy to make the model workable again. But these two are currently scientific ‘mysteries’. We could as well assume that none exist and God is holding the universe together.
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Justin_Mary
Guest
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Justin_Mary . . .
They clearly taught his Divinity.
That was a major part of the battle between St. John the Evangelist and heretics like Cerinthus who not only denied Jesus’ Divinity, but denied the Resurrection of Jesus too.
From The Catholic Encyclopedia . . . .
Good point Justin_Mary.
They clearly taught his Divinity.
That was a major part of the battle between St. John the Evangelist and heretics like Cerinthus who not only denied Jesus’ Divinity, but denied the Resurrection of Jesus too.
From The Catholic Encyclopedia . . . .
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03539a.htm
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Cathoholic
Guest
Not only was there witnesses (Gr = martus) to the Risen Jesus, but the testimony was so strong, we have had 2000 years of martyrs defending that passing on of ths testimony.
Show me ANYTHING close to this @FiveLinden.
It just does not exist.
This is WHY the Resurrection is avoided like the plague in school history classes.
Not because it is false, but because the Resurrection is TRUE.
Show me ANYTHING close to this @FiveLinden.
It just does not exist.
This is WHY the Resurrection is avoided like the plague in school history classes.
Not because it is false, but because the Resurrection is TRUE.
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FiveLinden
Guest
There were many more witnesses recorded in scripture to hundreds of dead people rising from their graves after the resurrection and walking about. Strangely, if this were true, no other record of the event has survived. You are of course free to believe as you wish but if you believe not because of faith but because of witness testimony contained in scripture you have a big problem with consistency if you consider scripture authoritative history.
All religions have their martyrs. Even non-believers go to their deaths refusing to accept the imposition of beliefs. Were your logic to be correct Catholics should accept gay sex as good on the basis that under ISIS gays who continued their lives as normal were executed but some continued in defiance of the law.
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Cathoholic
Guest
FiveLinden . . .
Just the fact that 2000 years if Christian history treats these different than a “Resurrection” should at least inspire the question “Why?”.
WHY would 2000 years of testimony treat these differently?
I’ll tell you “why”.
Because a resuscitation is not the same as a Resurrection where you are never to die again.
These are not Resurrections.
Just the fact that 2000 years if Christian history treats these different than a “Resurrection” should at least inspire the question “Why?”.
WHY would 2000 years of testimony treat these differently?
I’ll tell you “why”.
Because a resuscitation is not the same as a Resurrection where you are never to die again.
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Cathoholic
Guest
FiveLinden . . . .
It is the DENIERS that have a problem with consistency.
The second erroneous point of yours is where you attempt to play off faith vrs. testimony.
Both are involved.
As a matter of fact if you go back and re-read my posts, you will find faith as having two dimensions.
A natural aspect and a supernatural one that comes with Baptism.
What is incosistent and really for that matter superstitious, is atheists who pretend to assert science and rationality.
Then asking them if creation and time always “was”, how can there be any “motion” right now this instant?
After all. If time always was, and motioncannot be perpetual, all motion should have ceased long ago.
Yet here it is.
The atheist is forced to assert a denial of perpetual motion based upon science,
but an affirmation of this (with no accompanying rational reason) based upon their BELIEF system.
First of all I have no probem with consistency.
It is the DENIERS that have a problem with consistency.
The second erroneous point of yours is where you attempt to play off faith vrs. testimony.
Both are involved.
As a matter of fact if you go back and re-read my posts, you will find faith as having two dimensions.
A natural aspect and a supernatural one that comes with Baptism.
What is incosistent and really for that matter superstitious, is atheists who pretend to assert science and rationality.
Then asking them if creation and time always “was”, how can there be any “motion” right now this instant?
After all. If time always was, and motioncannot be perpetual, all motion should have ceased long ago.
Yet here it is.
The atheist is forced to assert a denial of perpetual motion based upon science,
but an affirmation of this (with no accompanying rational reason) based upon their BELIEF system.
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FiveLinden
Guest
No I am not. I never think about perpetual motion. Why would I? Everything of which I am aware is in motion. This is observation, not faith. You, on the basis of faith (I think) believe there must be a first mover. Why?
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