Jesus ate lamb so that we could eat hamburgers, or not?

[JoeJetson]

There’s a strong likelihood that Jesus ate lamb at Passover. Jesus, the Lamb of God, the innocent slaughtered for our sins. Jesus eating lamb for the occasion of Passover, I notice, is often used as justification in threads, for us in the 21st century, to eat meat without restraint and with great excess, and not necessarily lamb, hardly ever lamb, and more frequently then just on the occasion of Passover (which to my knowledge Catholics do not celebrate).

I don’t exactly see how our current indulgence of meat, or more specifically over-indulgence, is linked to Jesus eating lamb at Passover.

In the 21st century we are plagued with disease from over-indulgences of meat and other foods, and meat is raised in inhumane conditions not seen in the time of Jesus (factory type production).

If Jesus only ate lamb once a year, how does that equate to us eating it for breakfast, lunch and dinner 7 times a week? Is mass cruelty to animals irrelevant?

Some people seem to trivialize the fact that our intake of meat has reached astronomical proportions, and that our new methods of producing it are irrelevant, but are they? There are a lot of issues tied to meat production, including pollution to the environment from so many billions of animals.

Does each generation have new challenges to contend with, new ethical dilemmas to grapple with? Is it possible that the treatment of food animals and our over-indulgence of “meat” and “food” in general, brings new ethical concerns to 21st century Catholics?

 

[aspawloski4th]

There’s a strong likelihood that Jesus ate lamb at Passover. Jesus, the Lamb of God, the innocent slaughtered for our sins. Jesus eating lamb for the occasion of Passover, I notice, is often used as justification in threads, for us in the 21st century, to eat meat without restraint and with great excess, and not necessarily lamb, hardly ever lamb, and more frequently then just on the occasion of Passover (which to my knowledge Catholics do not celebrate).

I don’t exactly see how our current indulgence of meat, or more specifically over-indulgence, is linked to Jesus eating lamb at Passover.

In the 21st century we are plagued with disease from over-indulgences of meat and other foods, and meat is raised in inhumane conditions not seen in the time of Jesus (factory type production).

If Jesus only ate lamb once a year, how does that equate to us eating it for breakfast, lunch and dinner 7 times a week? Is mass cruelty to animals irrelevant?

Some people seem to trivialize the fact that our intake of meat has reached astronomical proportions, and that our new methods of producing it are irrelevant, but are they? There are a lot of issues tied to meat production, including pollution to the environment from so many billions of animals.

Does each generation have new challenges to contend with, new ethical dilemmas to grapple with? Is it possible that the treatment of food animals and our over-indulgence of “meat” and “food” in general, brings new ethical concerns to 21st century Catholics?

Boy you dont get it don’t you! Here in the USA our ancestors while nat having burgers at meat as the primary portion of their meal. Or they wouldn’t have the energy to work their long days they did way back then. It eat meat for 3 reasons. First and most important by far taste! , next ease of preparing my kitchen is tiny and not easy to do long drown out cooking and baking in, and lastly protein, animal protein lasts the longest in me before getting hungery again. there are only 3 vegies I like the taste of, corn, potatoes and the baked variety of beans. One can’t survive on that alone. I go to the neighborhood small grocery store for most of my meat, because the manager there gets grerat deals where I can get meat vvery cheap while still getting great quality too. The amount of meat eaten is more today because there are more Americans today than ever before. Thats a no brainer. Now back to that bacon triple cheeseburger I was eating, yes just ketchup, no vgies on it, vegies. YUK!

 

[4elise]

Boy you dont get it don’t you! Here in the USA our ancestors while nat having burgers at meat as the primary portion of their meal. Or they wouldn’t have the energy to work their long days they did way back then. It eat meat for 3 reasons. First and most important by far taste! , next ease of preparing my kitchen is tiny and not easy to do long drown out cooking and baking in, and lastly protein, animal protein lasts the longest in me before getting hungery again. there are only 3 vegies I like the taste of, corn, potatoes and the baked variety of beans. One can’t survive on that alone. I go to the neighborhood small grocery store for most of my meat, because the manager there gets grerat deals where I can get meat vvery cheap while still getting great quality too. The amount of meat eaten is more today because there are more Americans today than ever before. Thats a no brainer. Now back to that bacon triple cheeseburger I was eating, yes just ketchup, no vgies on it, vegies. YUK!

Since this is on the Social Justice thread, and not the back fence I won’t trivialize your response with a trivial answer…

I believe the OP was referring to per capita meat consumption / not overall consumption.
hsus.org/farm/resources/pubs/stats_meat_consumption.html

(retail cut equiv./ lb. per person)

1950 Chicken 21 Turkey 3 Veal 7 Lamb 4 Beef^44 Pork 65 Total 144
2007* Chicken 87 Turkey 17 Veal 1 Lamb 1 Beef^66 Pork 51 Total 222

aspawloski4th - on other threads where meat vs a vegetarian/vegan diet is discussed you have explained that for your specific situation (taste / preference / financial / spacial / etc…) you are not interested in considering a non meat diet.

Respectfully I wonder why you then join in these discussions? I think many who initially try to make a switch find that they develop a taste for the diet, but it does sometimes take time and a willingness to try.

 

[Dale_M]

I think many who initially try to make a switch find that they develop a taste for the diet, but it does sometimes take time and a willingness to try.

I’ve been ovo-lacto-vegetarian (milk and eggs permitted) a couple times in my life. The biggest problem I encountered is visiting the homes of family and friends. It was hard for me to make them cater to my food preferences.

JoeJetsen, Our Lord taught much, but He didn’t give us directions on what to eat. Yes, it is true that our diets are quite different from life in the eastern Mediterranean 2000 years ago. But our entire lives are different than they were 2000 years ago. This isn’t a bad thing in itself.

 

[puzzleannie]

not that this has anything whatever to do with social justice, but there is an equally vocal contingent who claim a diet of natural grass fed meat, devoid of grain, is the only healthful diet for human beings, the diet programed into their DNA, and that grain-based agriculture is responsible for the degenerative diseases of civilizations based on it. They have equally compelling science and studies, and are just as emotional, judgmental, and dogmatic as are vegetarians defending their point of view.
texasgrassfedbeef.com/science_underscores_grassfed_meats.htm

Just because I happen to believe one side or the other does not make it objectively true. Neither does it make my opinion a matter of theology.

 

[vz71]

Jesus eating lamb for the occasion of Passover, I notice, is often used as justification in threads, for us in the 21st century, to eat meat without restraint and with great excess, and not necessarily lamb, hardly ever lamb, and more frequently then just on the occasion of Passover (which to my knowledge Catholics do not celebrate).

Your experience may be limited.

The only occasion I have seen for the lamb coming into play is when some vegan decides to claim Jesus as a vegetarian.
And when that is put forth, the specific purpose is to debunk the falsehood. Not justify anything.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Since this is on the Social Justice thread, and not the back fence I won’t trivialize your response with a trivial answer…

I believe the OP was referring to per capita meat consumption / not overall consumption.
hsus.org/farm/resources/pubs/stats_meat_consumption.html

(retail cut equiv./ lb. per person)

1950 Chicken 21 Turkey 3 Veal 7 Lamb 4 Beef^44 Pork 65 Total 144
2007* Chicken 87 Turkey 17 Veal 1 Lamb 1 Beef^66 Pork 51 Total 222

aspawloski4th - on other threads where meat vs a vegetarian/vegan diet is discussed you have explained that for your specific situation (taste / preference / financial / spacial / etc…) you are not interested in considering a non meat diet.

Respectfully I wonder why you then join in these discussions? I think many who initially try to make a switch find that they develop a taste for the diet, but it does sometimes take time and a willingness to try.

A few reasons come to mind when I join in. Some are annoyances , and some are fears. I take umbrage with anyone who sugests I am doing something immoral based on my choice of food to eat. if you go to other threads in social justuce you will see Im getting it on other subjects too. Take a look at anything with a transgender issue in it and you will see I am getting slammed. I’m quite frankly tired of these topics being put in social justuce or moral theology, notice when these topics are I take you guys head on about it and I don’t go whining to the moderators about it. Right now because of unemployem,mnt I have little to look foreword to, I’m supposed to take away looking foreword to dinner too? Now for the fear. In the current political climate Im already seeing this attitude slipping in to decisions of policy. Baltimore public school system for hot lunch started meatless mondays this year. I can see that being a problems for a hypoglycemic child right of the bat. Yes they do exist, my mom was one. I can see it reaching the current healthcare debate very easily on either side of the public healthcare issue, that absolutely scares me to death. I happen to be a big Atkins diet fan. My mother went on it. While she lost a token amount of weight, I have never seen her more healthy in my 41 years on this earth which happens to equate to about 2/3 of her lifetime. Theres lots of misinformation out there And I have no desire for it to upset tradition and rule my life.Ill leave with this little tidbit of history. During the time Christ walked the earth, the main thing the European Romans cooked in was olive oil, at the same time the main thing the Geramnic tribes peoples to the north cooked in was butter. The Romans were far better at farming thus the Germans to the north ate a much higher percentage of meat than the typical Roman citizen or even Roman soldier for that matter. Romans considered eating meat a bit barbaric. Well when dying natural death who lived longer? The Germans to the north, and that had many Romans who were aware of the Germans jealous. Sounds like genetics to me. I( think if the Celts and Slavs of that era would have a similer situation to the Germans.

 

[Marfran]

Our Lord taught much, but He didn’t give us directions on what to eat. Yes, it is true that our diets are quite different from life in the eastern Mediterranean 2000 years ago. But our entire lives are different than they were 2000 years ago. This isn’t a bad thing in itself.

Our lives are drastically different than 2000 years ago, and I think that we should examine all technological advancements/improvements for any ethical dilemmas that they may present in our current age.

The food industry boasts advancements that on the surface may seem
good–ease, convenience, etc., but upon closer examination we may find unhealthy, dangerous food, industrialized animal abuse, misappropriation of resources (crops grown to feed animals instead of going directly to feed people), degradation to the planet’s soil and water, etc., etc.

So, yes, I think that as we advance scientifically, we are presented with ethical challenges and choices that are unique to our period in history. We can not blindly accept all the ease and convenience, without considering the total costs to society, personal health etc.

Our massive use of animal products–a good thing–a bad thing??? Animals raised in confined, unnatural conditions–pumped full of growth hormones and antibiotics, E.coli contaminated meat and ground waters, Swine Flu and other diseases that jump from one species to another, heart disease, cancer, other human diseaes related to diet… All things to consider, and quite a few ethical dilemmas there as well.

The perhaps biggest ethical dilemma is how can we allow people to starve, and at the same time have people who eat so much that we now spend money for diet products, and spend massive amounts of money for health care related to diseases associated with over-eating and diet/dietary choices.

 

[Marfran]

Baltimore public school system for hot lunch started meatless mondays this year.

I would say that’s fabulous, but not seeing the menu I would suspect that they are just replacing the meat with other unhealthy animal products like cheese or eggs.

 

[Marfran]

A few reasons come to mind when I join in. Some are annoyances, and some are fears…

aspawloski4th: The guy that started the Meatless Monday trend is Michael Pollan. He is not a vegan or a vegetarian. He wrote the book: The Omnivore’s Dilemma. You might want to check out some of his work. He is opposed to factory farming mainly for health reasons (hormones and anti-biotics fed to animals and found in their meat), but does acknowledge that the industry is a cruel one.

He believes that we, as a society, eat too much meat, and that over-consumption is hazardous to our health, but he is unapologetically an omnivore. He also has concerns for the degradation of the soil and water from all the intense animal based agriculture, and feels that we could better feed the entire planet of people if more affluent peoples reduced their meat/animal product consumption.

I do not agree with all of his premises, but as an omnivore you may have an interest in what he has to say. Reading some of his work may also help you to understand some of the other posters’ positions in these threads.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

part of our traditions as Catholics is to abstain from meat during various parts of the year. My DH obstains from meat on Fridays all through the year. So friday dinner is usually meatless.

The reason why we abstain from meat is because it is a sacrifice. We give something up to rememeber Jesus and his suffering. I don’t think we give up meat because it is morally superior to do so.

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

Being a vegetarian or vegan are all choices we can make if we want. I don’t make that choice.

 

[athansor]

I guess I’ll have my say in this thread too, then I really gotta get back to work!

As a vegan for ethical reasons, I guess the question is how do I deal with the notion that Jesus ate lamb.

First, I’m a vegan because its possible for me to be one, living in this time. Would I be a vegan if I was born 100 years earlier? 1000 years earlier, 2000 years earlier? I imagine it would be pretty unlikely. But today, even up here in MT, I can go to the grocery store and get tofu, beans and green veggies any day of the week. With a greenhouse, I can extend the growing season long enough to get lots of veggies from the garden. With the internet, I can order some special treats (like a Celebration Roast for the holidays…yum!) or non-leather shoes. I can eat a healthy, tasty diet that supports my fitness activities. That would have been difficult in the past. So, how can I look back and judge people who lived in the past?

Second, I believe that the human race is supposed to be growing in faith, understanding, compassion and love, although it may be a two-step forward one-step back kind of thing. Maybe sometime in the far future, a meatless diet will be the norm as part of this trend. (If one is a Star Trek fan, that’s an assumption they make there). There’s even work on growing “meat” in the lab…growing non-sentient tissue. I don’t know if I would eat a burger grown in a lab or not, but I wouldn’t have the same ethical problems with it that I do with eating meat. If I avoided it, it would be only because of taste and health reasons.

 

[Marfran]

I guess I’ll have my say in this thread too, then I really gotta get back to work!

As a vegan for ethical reasons, I guess the question is how do I deal with the notion that Jesus ate lamb.

First, I’m a vegan because its possible for me to be one, living in this time. Would I be a vegan if I was born 100 years earlier? 1000 years earlier, 2000 years earlier? I imagine it would be pretty unlikely. But today, even up here in MT, I can go to the grocery store and get tofu, beans and green veggies any day of the week. With a greenhouse, I can extend the growing season long enough to get lots of veggies from the garden. With the internet, I can order some special treats (like a Celebration Roast for the holidays…yum!) or non-leather shoes. I can eat a healthy, tasty diet that supports my fitness activities. That would have been difficult in the past. So, how can I look back and judge people who lived in the past?

Second,** I believe that the human race is supposed to be growing in faith, understanding, compassion and love, although it may be a two-step forward one-step back kind of thing. **Maybe sometime in the far future, a meatless diet will be the norm as part of this trend. (If one is a Star Trek fan, that’s an assumption they make there). There’s even work on growing “meat” in the lab…growing non-sentient tissue. I don’t know if I would eat a burger grown in a lab or not, but I wouldn’t have the same ethical problems with it that I do with eating meat. If I avoided it, it would be only because of taste and health reasons.

Wow! Really good post!!!

I didn’t know that about Star Trek.

I’ve heard about the meat in the lab. Solves the problem of animal suffering, but I don’t think meat is a healthy food choice, based on all the new scientific and medical knowledge that ties it to heart disease, cancer etc.

 

[Marfran]

part of our traditions as Catholics is to abstain from meat during various parts of the year. My DH obstains from meat on Fridays all through the year. So friday dinner is usually meatless.

The reason why we abstain from meat is because it is a sacrifice. We give something up to rememeber Jesus and his suffering. I don’t think we give up meat because it is morally superior to do so.

If we abstain from meat on Fridays in Lent because it is a ***sacrifice ***why do so many Catholics replace that meal of meat with an often superior one of seafood. Where I live Catholics flock in droves to all you can eat fish frys, shrimp & lobster, and other seafood delicacies on Fridays in Lent. And there is usually a lot of alcohol being passed around as well.

Fridays in Lent are big business for restaurants here, and even Catholics who rarely go out on the town try to get out for one of these fabulous seafood dinners. I was on a thread about this awhile back. The whole idea of sacrifice, seems to have gone out the window.

I don’t get your “morally superior” statement. Are you saying that there are no ethical issues in meat production that bring its consumption into question?

BTW Mary, I think that we*** should *make sacrifices in Lent, but not **eating meat doesn’t seem to be much of a sacrifice for omnivores these days. If you replace the meat with a tasty alternative, and over-indulge (all you-can-eat buffet) does that not negate the sacrifice of giving up meat???

One of my kids did a report on when the meat abstinence tradition started in the Church. I recall hearing that one of the reasons it was started was to promote the fish industry. I don’t know if that’s true. Maybe, with all these Lenten fish frys, and growing numbers of vegans and vegetarians, the Church should consider re-focusing on the sacrifice part of this tradition.

 

[ahollars]

God has a place for all animals in this world… right next to the potatoes and gravy!!!

Our Lord gave the Israelites quail as well as manna in the desert, and fish was common in Jesus’ time, as it always will be. Remember what he asked for after the Resurrection?

Seriously, meat consumption fluctuates based on a wide range of factors, and it is completely benign, as long as it does not become gluttony. Vegans are not exempt from that either. I’ve eaten an entire vegetarian pizza by myself. Not my finest moment.

Milk and eggs are perfectly fine as well. I will concur on the health risk tied to beef, but as for the rest, our environment wasn’t exactly dying where there were more buffalo than people. I’m an Okie, so I should know.

Ease off the beef, and slow down on the chicken if you can, but the rest is harmless.

 

[Marfran]

God has a place for all animals in this world… right next to the potatoes and gravy!!!

Our Lord gave the Israelites quail as well as manna in the desert, and fish was common in Jesus’ time, as it always will be. Remember what he asked for after the Resurrection?

Seriously, meat consumption fluctuates based on a wide range of factors, and it is completely benign, as long as it does not become gluttony. Vegans are not exempt from that either. I’ve eaten an entire vegetarian pizza by myself. Not my finest moment.

Milk and eggs are perfectly fine as well. I will concur on the health risk tied to beef, but as for the rest, our environment wasn’t exactly dying where there were more buffalo than people. I’m an Okie, so I should know.

Ease off the beef, and slow down on the chicken if you can, but the rest is harmless.

Now I see that you are saying all this, while eating popcorn. Good roughage!

We know a lot more today, about health and meat consumption. ***The China Study ***is a good resource if you are interested in the connection between health and meat consumption.

So what are you saying ahollars, that pork is good? By keeping so many confined pigs we now have a virus that has jumped species, and is killing us and making us sick in the form of the Swine Flu. Oh, that’s right, the pork industry wants us to call it** H1N1**.

 

[DOShea]

and meat is raised in inhumane conditions not seen in the time of Jesus (factory type production).

Let me ask you a question… I have a friend who is a vegan. She’s one of the most irritating, egotistical, self-important people I’ve ever met. Would it be fair for me to characterize ALL vegans this way?

As a meat producer, a talent given by God, I take great offense when I read hateful and ignorant words like what you wrote above. To listen to them, you’d think I have all my cows duct-taped together in filthy conditions, injecting them with things that could hurt you but so what if it makes me a few bucks.

I’m really sick and tired of reading that kind of attitude from people who probably don’t know one end of a cow from the other.

So here is some information for you. I don’t inject growth hormones in my cows. They eat grass - a natural, renewable, organic product - and they have plenty of room to roam. They have all the water they need and are sheltered at night in individual stalls larger than my bedroom. It takes hours of work every single day to keep their environment clean, free of pests, and safe (for them).

When my cows grow, the emphasis on on health. Why? Because if I send off a cow to the processor that shows signs of illness, even suspected illness, I lose every dime I’ve spent on them. So even if I was the evil sort you cast us all as, I couldn’t make any money doing it. No producer does. The emphasis is on health also so that the cow grows proportionally with strong bones that can support a large muscle structure. If not, the cow will only grow so large and again profit is reduced.

After they grow to a certain size, I send them to a finisher. At a finisher, the cows spend their time indoors being fed a specific diet, typically corn feed and hay, sometimes other roughage, that is formulated to grow muscle AND fat in a specific proportion. This maximizes their “meat” as well as gives it the proper fat content for taste. Too lean and it won’t taste good, too fat and it won’t bring as much money from the processor. The floors are cleaned 3 times a day, and it is inspected regularly to ensure compliance with all laws and standards.

I sell my cows to the finisher on a sliding scale price. He in turn sells them to the processor on a sliding scale contract. For example, the processor offers a contract for 20,000 lbs hanging weight with X amount of it being able to meet or exceed USDA Grade A standards. The finisher then buys cows that he believes he can grow to that size in the right proportions. If he fails, if that meat isn’t the correct grade or percentage, he gets paid less, then I get paid less. So it is incumbent upon everyone in the chain to do everything they can to meet that end goal. Nothing short of strong healthy cows gets you there.

What happens is that some finishers try to take short cuts. Just like in every other business, the people who do this are soon identified and no one does business with them. Usually it’s someone who doesn’t know what they are doing, and anyone can spot them a mile away, I know of no facility like those, and would not risk my income with one. Ever.

Sometimes processors have machine failures and end up holding cows in facilities that are too cramped for long-term holding. Naturally this provides an awesome opportunity for some home made video showing how “the industry” is evil and unfair, uncaring about the animals, etc. I’ve seen people put their dog in a cardboard box to take them to the vet when they had no other suitable container. Would it be fair to photograph that and then conclude “all dog owners are cruel. See this dog… see the box? How can anyone expect a dog to live its life in a box?”

Point is, it is not a widespread phenomena. It happens; so do bank robberies. Those don’t indicate an entire system is corrupt.

If you choose not to eat mine, that’s your choice to make, but it is a lie (that would be a sin, remember) to cast all of us into one bin based on the very few, lowest, most vile people in the industry.

Thanks for reading.

 

[ahollars]

Now I see that you are saying all this, while eating popcorn. Good roughage!

We know a lot more today, about health and meat consumption. ***The China Study ***is a good resource if you are interested in the connection between health and meat consumption.

So what are you saying ahollars, that pork is good? By keeping so many confined pigs we now have a virus that has jumped species, and is killing us and making us sick in the form of the Swine Flu. Oh, that’s right, the pork industry wants us to call it** H1N1**.

H1N1 is a scientific term. There are 45 possible protein combinations to the flu virus capsule, from H1N1 to H9N5 and everything in between. The pork industry isn’t the one who named it. H1N1 is not exclusive to swine, either.

Diseases are not limited to meat consumption. E. Coli was found in spinach in California just last summer which spread across the country, and there are many cases each year. To site the health risk due to contamination isn’t a strong point, since instances occur in both plant food and meat at about the same rate. To site the health risk due to its normal effects on the body when comparing the two is a strong point. I disagree with people who think that animals farms are bad for the environment. I think people need to get out more if that is their view.

 

[Indyann]

One of my kids did a report on when the meat abstinence tradition started in the Church. I recall hearing that one of the reasons it was started was to promote the fish industry. I don’t know if that’s true. Maybe, with all these Lenten fish frys, and growing numbers of vegans and vegetarians, the Church should consider re-focusing on the sacrifice part of this tradition.

That certainly is a very odd thing for a Catholic to post. I would think you would find out if it is true before making such a slur.

 

[royal_archer]

I guess I’ll have my say in this thread too, then I really gotta get back to work!

As a vegan for ethical reasons, I guess the question is how do I deal with the notion that Jesus ate lamb.

First, I’m a vegan because its possible for me to be one, living in this time. Would I be a vegan if I was born 100 years earlier? 1000 years earlier, 2000 years earlier? I imagine it would be pretty unlikely. But today, even up here in MT, I can go to the grocery store and get tofu, beans and green veggies any day of the week. With a greenhouse, I can extend the growing season long enough to get lots of veggies from the garden. With the internet, I can order some special treats (like a Celebration Roast for the holidays…yum!) or non-leather shoes. I can eat a healthy, tasty diet that supports my fitness activities. That would have been difficult in the past. So, how can I look back and judge people who lived in the past?

Second, I believe that the human race is supposed to be growing in faith, understanding, compassion and love, although it may be a two-step forward one-step back kind of thing. Maybe sometime in the far future, a meatless diet will be the norm as part of this trend. (If one is a Star Trek fan, that’s an assumption they make there). There’s even work on growing “meat” in the lab…growing non-sentient tissue. I don’t know if I would eat a burger grown in a lab or not, but I wouldn’t have the same ethical problems with it that I do with eating meat. If I avoided it, it would be only because of taste and health reasons.

Have you considered the millions of animals killed as collateral damage in the harvesting of grain and veggies?