Jesus' brethren and not cousins

[Randy_Carson]

What I meant was arguments such as brother mentioned in some places means cousin or relative only,it was a translation error etc.no longer hold water.I have seen that some groups vehemently argue based on the same wordings that it was meant for own brothers and sisters only.So some other line of thinking is necessary to prove the point.

:nope: This is incorrect, joseie.

**The Perpetual Virginity of Mary

I. Defending the Perpetual Virginity from Arguments Based on Commonly Misunderstood Scriptures

A. Adelphoi – the “Brothers” of Jesus**

Many non-Catholics seek to deny the Perpetual Virginity of Mary based upon the references to Jesus’ “brothers” as found in these passages such as these:

Matthew 12:46-50
46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers (Gr. adelphoi) are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.” 48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers (Gr. adelphoi)?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. (Gr. adelphoi) 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother (Gr. adelphos) and sister (Gr. adelphe) and mother.”

Mark 3:31-35
31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers (Gr. adelphoi) arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers (Gr. adelphoi) are outside looking for you.” 33 “Who are my mother and my brothers (Gr. adelphoi)?” he asked. 34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers (Gr. adelphoi)! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother (Gr. adelphos) and sister (Gr. adelphe) and mother.”

Matthew 13:54-56
54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers (Gr. adelphoi) James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters (Gr. adelphai) with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

Mark 6:3
3 Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother (Gr. adelphos) of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters (Gr. adelphai) here with us?” And they took offense at him.

Although a simple reading of these passages in English appears more than sufficient to prove that Jesus had brothers and sisters and that Mary was not ever-virgin, the key to interpreting these verses is understanding the Greek words for “brother” (adelphos), “brothers” (adelphoi), “sister” (adelphe) and “sisters” (adelphai). If these Greek words connote only siblings, then the Catholic dogma of Mary’s perpetual virginity is demonstrably false. However, this is not the case. The well-known Protestant linguistic reference, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, defines adelphos as follows:

Adelphos: denotes a brother, or near kinsman; in the plural, a community based on identity or origin or life. It is used of:

1. 
   *]male children of the same parents…
   *]male descendants of the same parents, Acts 7:23,26; Hebrews 7:5…
   *]people of the same nationality, Acts 3:17,22; Romans 9:3…
   *]any man, a neighbor, Luke 10:29; Matthew 5:22, 7:23…
   *]persons united by a common interest, Matthew 5:47…
   *]persons united by a common calling, Revelation 22:9…
   *]mankind, Matthew 25:40; Hebrews 2:17…
   *]the disciples, and so, by implication, all believers, Matthew 28:10; John 20:17…
   *]believers, apart from sex, Matthew 23:8; Acts 1:16; Romans 1:13; 1 Thessalonians; Revelation 19:10 (the word sisters is used of believers only in 1 Timothy 5:2)…
   
   This wide range of usage occurs in Hebrew, Greek and English, and two examples are worthy of note:
   
   Acts 1:15-16
   15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, “Brothers and sisters (Gr. adelphoi), the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus.
   
   The footnote to v. 16 in the NIV states: “The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in 6:3; 11:29; 12:17; 16:40; 18:18, 27; 21:7, 17; 28:14, 15.” This is an example of the ninth usage of adelphoi. Obviously, logic dictates that the 120 “brothers and sisters” in Acts 1:16 did not have the same mother; Mary would have been perpetually pregnant instead!
   
   (cont.)

 

[Randy_Carson]

The second example comes from Genesis 11:26-28, 29:15:

Genesis 11:26-27
26 After Terah had lived 70 years, he became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran. 27 This is the account of Terah’s family line. Terah became the father of Abram, Nahor and Haran. And Haran became the father of Lot.

From this passage, we see that Abram and Haran are brothers and that Lot, being Haran’s son, is Abram’s nephew. Lot is taken captive:

Genesis 14:12
And they took Lot, Abram’s brother’s son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed.

In this verse, the King James Version rightly identifies the correct relationship between Abram and Lot. And yet, he is called Abram’s brother in the following passage:

Genesis 14:14
And when Abram heard that his brother [Lot] was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan.

The reason people in those passages were called “brothers” or “sisters” was because in Hebrew, there was no word for cousin, nephew, or uncle. So the person was referred to as simply a “brother” or a “sister”, because this was far easier than calling the person “the son of my mother’s sister.”

Since the New Testament was written in a dialect of Greek that was heavily influenced by the Semitic culture, many of the Hebrew idioms intrude into the Greek text. For example, Simon is called “Cephas” which is the Greek transliteration of the Aramaic word, “kepha” which means “rock”. Similarly, blood-relatives who were actually cousins were still referred to as “brothers” because of the limitation of the Aramaic lexicon.

In conclusion, the facts concerning Jesus’ “brothers” are:

1. 
   *]Aramaic contains no word for cousin.
   *]Kinsmen (and non-blood relatives alike) were therefore referred to as “brothers” (adelphos) or “sisters” (adelphe).
   *]Jesus’ “brothers” and “sisters” are not necessarily other children of Mary.
   *]Therefore, the fact that the Bible refers to people whose actual relation to Jesus is uncertain cannot be used to prove that Mary was not ever-virgin.
   
   Positively stated, we can with certainty that Jesus had adelphoi who were relatives or kinsmen, but we cannot say that the scriptures teach that Mary had other children.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Now, joseie, you suggested that “some other line of reasoning” is necessary…and we have that, too!

B. Brothers of Jesus, Not Sons of Mary

Many non-Catholics deny the Perpetual Virginity of Mary by referring to passages of scripture that mention the “brothers” of Jesus. A rigorous analysis of scripture, however, proves their position is false. Consider the following:

1. Jesus had a “brother” named James.

"Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?” (Matthew 13:55)

1. James, the Lord’s “brother”, is an apostle.

“Then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. (Galatians 1:18-19)

1. There are two apostles named James.

“When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

1. One James (the brother of John) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Zebedee.

“James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder)” (Mark 3:17)

1. The other apostle named James is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Alpheus (aka Clopas).

“And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he called apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter and Andrew his brother, and James and John and Philip and Bartholomew, and Matthew and James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

1. The man named Joseph (aka Joses) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his brother is James. Therefore, this Mary is the wife of Alphaeus (aka Clopas).

“Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.” (Matthew 27:55-56)

1. Judas is not a uterine brother of Jesus because he is the son of James.

“When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James.” (Acts 1:13)

1. While Matthew 15:35 declares James, Joseph and Judas to be the “brothers” of Jesus, it has been demonstrated from scripture that they are NOT uterine brothers of the Lord. From this, it is apparent that scripture must be using the term “brothers” to mean relatives other than sons of Mary.
2. As for the fourth “brother”, Simon, the second-century historian Hegesippus, as cited by Eusebius, states that he was also a son of Clopas and Mary which makes him a cousin of Jesus through his mother’s kinship with Jesus’ mother.
3. In John 19:25, we read:

“Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene.”

Combining the accounts of Matthew and John, we see that four women were at the foot of the Cross: Mary of Joseph who was Jesus’ Mother, her “sister”,Mary of Clopas, Mary Magdalene and the unnamed mother of Zebedee’s sons. Since it is very unlikely that a family would have two daughters both named “Mary”, the word “sister” in John 19:25 is being used to designate a kinswoman of Mary…probably a cousin….just as the word “brother” was used to designate male relatives.

II. Additional Considerations

A. Complete absence of brothers and sisters in the story of Jesus being found in the Temple.

B. Complete absence of brothers and sisters at the crucifixion.

C. “Behold Your Mother” – Jesus leaves Mary in the hands of John instead of a blood brother.

D. Scripture refers to the “brothers of Jesus” but never the “sons of Mary”.

 

[JMM1957]

Luke 1:36
New International Version
Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month.
Douay Rheims Bible
And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren:
English Revised Version
And behold, Elisabeth thy kinswoman, she also hath conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her that was called barren.

Luke 1:36 uses the term syngenis.biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1-36.htm
According to Strong’s Concordance, this means: cousin, kin(-sfolk, -sman). biblehub.com/strongs/greek/4773.htm
Forms of syngenis are used 12 times in the NT and are translated relative/kinsmen. biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4773.htm

Mark 6:3
New International Version
Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.
English Revised Version
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended in him.

Mark 6:3 (and Matthew 13:55-56) use the terms adelphos and adelphai. biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/6-3.htm
These are defined brother and sister. biblehub.com/strongs/greek/80.htm biblehub.com/strongs/greek/79.htm
These words are used many times in the New Testament to mean biological sibling or brother/sister in Christ.** These 2 terms are never used to describe an extended family member or kinsman. **url]http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_80.htm

biblehub.com/greek/strongs_79.htm

So the words in the 1st-century inspired Greek texts used to mention Jesus’ brothers and sisters in Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55-56 were exclusively used to refer to brother and sister.

Not true. In Genesis 13:8 and 14:14-16, when these examples were translated into Greek, the word “adelphos” was used. Abraham and Lot were not biological brothers nor were they brothers in Christ as you seem to point to as being the only uses of the word in Greek. They were uncle and nephew.

 

[susanlo]

Not true. In Genesis 13:8 and 14:14-16, when these examples were translated into Greek, the word “adelphos” was used. Abraham and Lot were not biological brothers nor were they brothers in Christ as you seem to point to as being the only uses of the word in Greek. They were uncle and nephew.

Genesis 13:8, 14:14, and 14:16 all use a form of the Hebrew word: ’ā-ḥîw; / ach. Strong’s Concordance defines this Hebrew word as: “A primitive word; a brother (used in the widest sense of literal relationship and metaphorical affinity or resemblance (like 'ab)) – another, brother(-ly); kindred, like, other.” So this word in Genesis has a broad meaning encompassing biological brother, kindred/relative and more.
biblehub.com/strongs/hebrew/251.htm

This Hebrew term is translated into English many different ways. Sometimes it is translated to kinsman or relative, but very often the English word used is brother or brethren. Douay-Rheims, King James, NASB and many more use brother and brethren to translate ‘ach’ in these 3 verses.

Does that mean that in the English language we use the word brother to describe our nephews or cousins or other relatives? I am not familiar with someone using the term brother to describe an extended family relationship. I think that the reason they would use adelphos in the Greek version is the same reason that they use brother/brethren in many English versions. It is based on the difficulty in translating the Hebrew word ‘ach.’

 

[Reuben_J]

Who says they hold no water? YOU??

So I don’t misunderstand you are you saying you accept or reject the infallible teaching of the Church that Mary was a perpetual virgin?

Which Protestant groups reject this? ALL the founding fathers of Protestantism publicly declared in writing that Mary was a perpetual virgin so who are these weird group you keep referring to?

Also, as another poster already told you Mary did NOT ASCEND into Heaven. Only Christ ascended. Mary was ASSUMED into Heaven. Ascension and Assumption are totally different.

Why are you very fierce? You don’t have to shout; it is just a discussion.

 

[mikeeh]

I know the “brethren” of Jesus were the sons of Mary the wife of Cleophas, but I am confused by the language saying that Jesus had brothers and sisters, and the reasoning that there were no terms for “cousin,” when Luke 1:36 states that Elizabeth was Mary’s “cousin.” I’m not having a crisis of faith or anything like that, just curious what the answers are to this.

The simplest answer is that Joseph was married before and had children. It’s not likely that the writers of the Gospels would name four random cousins. Plus, when Jesus says these are my borthers, my sisters, and my mothers (I’m paraphrasing) he’s talking about a very intimate relationship. He’s not saying everyone is just like his cousins down the road. Jesus is saying everyone who follows him is the same as someone who lives in his house and breaks bread with him daily. You also have to remember only a few people knew Joseph wasn’t Jesus’ biological father, so most people assumed Jesus’ stepbrothers were actually his half brothers.

 

[Faith1960]

D-R Bible:

Luke 1:36 And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age; and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren:

So there WAS a word for cousin.

 

[porthos11]

So there WAS a word for cousin.

Wasn’t. Already explained above.

The Greek suggenes means “relative” or “kinsman/kinswoman”. Cousin can be included but the word is larger in scope. There is no specific word for “offspring of my parent’s sibling”.

 

[po18guy]

A perhaps less theological, but more practical scriptural support:

Luke 1:31 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.

Luke 1:38 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
38 And Mary said, “Behold, the bondslave of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

Luke 1:41-43 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43 And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?

Gabriel announced that the fruit of Mary’s womb would be “a Son” - singular. Mary declared herself to be the “bondslave” of the Lord - her own Son, as identified by Elizabeth under the power of the Holy Spirit. And, Mary’s status as bondslave remained through her life, and in a sense still remains, as her role is to lead us to Christ. As bondslave, how could she break that vow made before an angel of God? Conceiving and raising other children would have broken that vow.

 

[Faith1960]

Wasn’t. Already explained above.

The Greek suggenes means “relative” or “kinsman/kinswoman”. Cousin can be included but the word is larger in scope. There is no specific word for “offspring of my parent’s sibling”.

But Thistle quoted Scripture that says cousin.

 

[Randy_Carson]

But Thistle quoted Scripture that says cousin.

Thistle quoted an English translation.

 

[Faith1960]

Thistle quoted an English translation.

Does that matter? Forgive me for being confused.

 

[porthos11]

But Thistle quoted Scripture that says cousin.

Translation, and as with any translation, it’s a word choice. Some choices are better than others.

For the real meaning, you always go back to the original languages.

“Cousin” isn’t the best translation. “Relative” or “kinswoman” is better.

 

[Faith1960]

Translation, and as with any translation, it’s a word choice. Some choices are better than others.

For the real meaning, you always go back to the original languages.

“Cousin” isn’t the best translation. “Relative” or “kinswoman” is better.

So is it true there is no word for cousin or not? Sorry in advance if I sound snarky. Don’t mean to be.

 

[susanlo]

So is it true there is no word for cousin or not? Sorry in advance if I sound snarky. Don’t mean to be.

Are you asking if the NT Greek has a word for cousin?

There is the Greek word ‘anepsios’ which means cousin (I think it can also be used for nephew.) This is used in Colossians 4:10.

In Luke 1:36 and other places the word ‘syngenis/suggenes’ is used and this means kinsman or relative. It is translated cousin in English at times although it may not be a cousin as we know it in English.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So is it true there is no word for cousin or not? Sorry in advance if I sound snarky. Don’t mean to be.

Right. In the original Greek, the word suggenes meant kin, or relative.
In many (not all) English translations, the word ‘cousin’ was given instead.

Yes, it’s confusing for people to hear that the original Greek (which is not exactly the same as modern Greek, to make it even more confusing!) language from AD300 or so did not have a word for ‘cousin’, and then open up their English-language Bibles and read, "And Elizabeth, the cousin of Mary. . " But that’s how it is. Languages are, with the exception of Latin and other "dead languages’, flexible. They add new words, they have words that change in definition, etc.

Originally the word “gentleman” for example meant a man who owned a specific amount of property. Over time (in the 17th, 18th centuries especially) people started to focus on what the QUALITIES of a gentleman were, not his financial status. A gentleman in the original sense, because he did own property and had a particular spot in a class-driven society (Great Britain) was noted for his courtesy to his ‘betters’ AND to his ‘inferiors’. A gentleman was well spoken to all, kind, thoughtful. And over time, those QUALITIES became the actual definition of the word ‘gentleman’. So now, people think that a gentleman is ‘somebody who is kind and well-behaved’. But that is not what the original definition was. And if you read works from people who wrote during the time before the definition changed, you might be quite confused!

(And don’t even start me on the word ‘gay’. Hey, I remember in the early 60s, as a child, watching the Flintstones have ‘a gay old time’. The word gay wasn’t even on the radar as being associated with homosexuals. Now, anybody hearing the word ‘gay’ is going to automatically think, “homosexual”. And reading or hearing something even only 50 years old using that term, we have to consciously ‘shake ourselves’ and realize it doesn’t mean homosexual, it meant, and meant for centuries, ‘happy’.)

Ah, the English language. Very strange. A fat chance and a slim chance mean the same thing!

 

[joseie]

Whatever be the arguments and counter arguments in this matter,the undisputable position is this:
(1) There is nothing in the scriptures which clearly say that Jesus had no brothers or sisters,and
(2) Some verses show that Jesus had brothers and sisters which can be due to language or translation error.

 

[rcwitness]

Whatever be the arguments and counter arguments in this matter,the undisputable position is this:
(1) There is nothing in the scriptures which clearly say that Jesus had no brothers or sisters,and
(2) Some verses show that Jesus had brothers and sisters which can be due to language or translation error.

Sure, though that’s not really a “position”. A position is where one stands in belief, or interpretation of the matter. The Catholic Church has a clear position that Mary remained a virgin the entire course of her life. The reason it is necessary for a Catholic to assent to this belief, is because the Church declared it with dogmatic authority. To doubt it, is no longer a matter of doubting evidence, but that the Church is able to Confirm it so.

 

[Faith1960]

Right. In the original Greek, the word suggenes meant kin, or relative.
In many (not all) English translations, the word ‘cousin’ was given instead.

Yes, it’s confusing for people to hear that the original Greek (which is not exactly the same as modern Greek, to make it even more confusing!) language from AD300 or so did not have a word for ‘cousin’, and then open up their English-language Bibles and read, "And Elizabeth, the cousin of Mary. . " But that’s how it is. Languages are, with the exception of Latin and other "dead languages’, flexible. They add new words, they have words that change in definition, etc.

Originally the word “gentleman” for example meant a man who owned a specific amount of property. Over time (in the 17th, 18th centuries especially) people started to focus on what the QUALITIES of a gentleman were, not his financial status. A gentleman in the original sense, because he did own property and had a particular spot in a class-driven society (Great Britain) was noted for his courtesy to his ‘betters’ AND to his ‘inferiors’. A gentleman was well spoken to all, kind, thoughtful. And over time, those QUALITIES became the actual definition of the word ‘gentleman’. So now, people think that a gentleman is ‘somebody who is kind and well-behaved’. But that is not what the original definition was. And if you read works from people who wrote during the time before the definition changed, you might be quite confused!

(And don’t even start me on the word ‘gay’. Hey, I remember in the early 60s, as a child, watching the Flintstones have ‘a gay old time’. The word gay wasn’t even on the radar as being associated with homosexuals. Now, anybody hearing the word ‘gay’ is going to automatically think, “homosexual”. And reading or hearing something even only 50 years old using that term, we have to consciously ‘shake ourselves’ and realize it doesn’t mean homosexual, it meant, and meant for centuries, ‘happy’.)

Ah, the English language. Very strange. A fat chance and a slim chance mean the same thing!

So let’s see if I got this right. In the original Greek, there was no word for cousin but in some of the English translations, they substituted cousin for kin or relative?