Jesus Brother James

[Axion]

bheroux:

I just had this very discussion regarding the cousin of Mary in Luke 1:36. Why is it that scripture uses the word cousin in Luke 1:36 and not in Mark 5:7 where it lists Jesus’ “brethren” Since the Greek language has a word for cousin, why is’nt it consistently applied in the NT? This makes it difficult to use this as an argument.

Actually the word in Luke 1.36 is not “cousin”. The word is the Greek **Suggenes ** (Strong 4773).

This is defined as

1. of the same kin, akin to, related by blood
2. in a wider sense, of the same nation, a fellow countryman

It is a looser connection than Cousin.

The Greek language has a word for Cousin, anepsios. However this is irrelevant for the original accounts in Matthew were in Aramaic, and the spoken words were in Aramaic, and Aramaic has no word for Cousin.

Those who wrote down the Gospels translated the original accounts into Greek. As they translated, they would take the Aramaic word for “brother” <ach>, (which includes the meaning “kinsman”) and simply translate it into the usual equivalent, namely the Greek word for “Brother”, <adelphos>, which has a far narrower meaning. Unless someone intervened at that point with a very good reason to use another word, the translator would naturally use the word “Brother”

 

[scm]

scm:

I hope I don’t offend anyone here by asking this, but would not Joseph and Mary have had to consumate their marriage after Jesus’s birth in order to make it a valid marriage?

I found the answer to my question in another thread under Ask an Apologist.

Basically, marriages are assumed valid until proven otherwise, and in addition Mary and Joseph married under the Old Covenant. Their marriage was not subject to Church Law.

This makes me feel much better.

 

[chevalier]

“Adelphos” in Greek denotes anything from full blood brother to quite a distant cousin. My native language knows “brother by aunt” or “brother by uncle” and many people call them just “brother”. It’s possible that in some people’s minds, those are more distant brothers rather than less distant cousins. In English, there is no obstacle to leaving out “step” or “foster” in “step brother” or “foster brother”, even if there is no blood relation whatsoever with those. A brother doesn’t always have to be a son of your father and your mother.

 

[Axion]

“Adelphos” in Greek denotes anything from full blood brother to quite a distant cousin. My native language knows “brother by aunt” or “brother by uncle” and many people call them just “brother”. It’s possible that in some people’s minds, those are more distant brothers rather than less distant cousins. In English, there is no obstacle to leaving out “step” or “foster” in “step brother” or “foster brother”, even if there is no blood relation whatsoever with those. A brother doesn’t always have to be a son of your father and your mother.

That’s interesting.

I’ve had so many people tell me “adelphos” just means full blood brother, that I’ve rather accepted it without checking.

 

[Malachi4U]

scm:

I asked an honest question and did not make a claim. I can not show a Bible verse to support a question.

I am not anti-Catholic.

To answer some of the questions you posted. Catholic Cannon Law states that impotent persons are not allowed to marry, so yes it would seem that anyone not able to consumate a marriage can not have a valid marriage.

The question I asked was precisely analogous and realated to the first of your questions. Is the marriage valid without consumaiton. AND I would prefer the answer to be YES.

:clapping:

Good response, sorry I was so vague.

 

[estesbob]

If James is Jesus’s brother why would Jesus put Mary in care of John as he did while dying on the cross?

You wont fnd ANY references to James being Jesus’s “real” brother until after the Protestant reformation. The claim was used as ammo to attack Catholic veneration of Mary It is interesting that Protestants are, after 500 years, rediscovering Mary.

 

[cajun-catholic]

Is the Douay-Rheims Bible is in error when it uses the word cousin in Luke?

 

[bheroux]

Axion:

Actually the word in Luke 1.36 is not “cousin”. The word is the Greek **Suggenes ** (Strong 4773).

This is defined as

1. of the same kin, akin to, related by blood
2. in a wider sense, of the same nation, a fellow countryman

It is a looser connection than Cousin.

The Greek language has a word for Cousin, anepsios. However this is irrelevant for the original accounts in Matthew were in Aramaic, and the spoken words were in Aramaic, and Aramaic has no word for Cousin.

Those who wrote down the Gospels translated the original accounts into Greek. As they translated, they would take the Aramaic word for “brother” <ach>, (which includes the meaning “kinsman”) and simply translate it into the usual equivalent, namely the Greek word for “Brother”, <adelphos>, which has a far narrower meaning. Unless someone intervened at that point with a very good reason to use another word, the translator would naturally use the word “Brother”

Thankyou so much for the response. so what you are saying is that the real word is sugenis which could be rendered differently.
In Mark 5:8, the greek word is Adelphos. I am still confused as to why Luke used sugenis and Mark used Adelphos. Now, why is it that the Douy used the word in English “cousin” for Elizebeth and not use this same word for Jesus “brothers”. This is the snare I am in right now, and don’t have a good enough response.
Why didn’t it consistently use the word Sugenis accross all references to Jesus’s brethren? I think the obvious answer to my own question is that there were different authors, and it sounds like sugenis is a synonym to adelphos ?

 

[Tom]

bheroux:

Now, why is it that the Douy used the word in English “cousin” for Elizebeth and not use this same word for Jesus “brothers”.

The relationship between Elisabeth and Mary was known to the TRANSLATORS, the reason I capped translators is it’s in the translation that things get muddled. For example in Gn 14:14 Lot is referred to as Abrahams “brother” in the KJV & the DR;
Gn 14:14 Which when Abram had heard, to wit, that his brother Lot was taken, he numbered of the servants born in his house, three hundred and eighteen well appointed: and pursued them to Dan.
but in my New American he is his nephew;
GN 14:14 When Abram heard that his nephew had been captured, he mustered three hundred and eighteen of his retainers, born in his house, and went in pursuit as far as Dan.
There is no error in the Scriptures, however the translations…

 

[terrilee23]

Mad Amos:

A simple question, then: upon His death, to which of Jesus’ brothers was the care of His mother entrusted?

AMEN!! I was waitng for someone to say this! Thats what PROVED it to me! Why would Jesus give his mother to John if she had anothe son he would take care of her.

 

[Axion]

bheroux:

Thankyou so much for the response. so what you are saying is that the real word is sugenis which could be rendered differently.

Yes. Suggenes does not mean Cousin, but kinsperson.

In Mark 5:8, the greek word is Adelphos. I am still confused as to why Luke used sugenis and Mark used Adelphos. Now, why is it that the Douy used the word in English “cousin” for Elizebeth and not use this same word for Jesus “brothers”. This is the snare I am in right now, and don’t have a good enough response.
Why didn’t it consistently use the word Sugenis accross all references to Jesus’s brethren? I think the obvious answer to my own question is that there were different authors, and it sounds like sugenis is a synonym to adelphos ?

What you are forgetting is that the four Gospels were all written by different people, using different sources. While Luke was written originally in Greek. There is evidence that Matthew, and perhaps Mark, were originally written in Aramaic versions, now lost, and then translated into Greek. The original spoken interactions in all versions were originally in Aramaic, and later translated into Greek. This explains the differences in word usage regarding relationships between the gospel versions.

Where information has come from an Aramaic source, the word used for Jesus’s kinsfolk will be the Aramaic **Ach ** (Brother). Translated into the Greek **Adelphos **, (brother).

In places where the writer is writing originally in Greek about events he has seen or learned at first hand, it is likely that he will use more accurate Greek words such as **Suggenes ** (kinsman), or Anepsios, (cousin) that would not appear in Aramaic accounts.

The Douai English translation is from the standard received Greek text, and it will translate the words just as the Greek has them. So if the Greek says “adelphos” the English translation will generally say “brother”, whatever the original Aramaic meant.

 

[DaveD]

The Church teaches us to read the Old Testament in light of the New. Here is what Ezekiel says about the path through which the Lord comes:

And he said to me, “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”
Ezekiel 44:2

Here is what St. Jerome said about it in 303 A.D. I laugh everytime I read this. The subject not funny I know, but the way Jerome shows his disgust just amuses me.

cin.org/users/james/files/helvidiu.htm

 

[MH84]

The only problem with that is it would have been unthinkable in the culture of the time, and in fact would have been somewhat horifying to the audience of people present for a younger sibling to have given advice to an older brother. Like respecting your elders.

I believe that Aaron took orders from Moses in the book of Exodus and that Aaron was older than Moses.