Jesus Can Be Moved: What Does This Say about the Fixedness of His Will?

[ready]

I read that Jesus can be moved. I read this in an approved appariton to some children but I can’t remember which apparition. The words “My son can be moved” or “I [Jesus] can be moved” were written in French in a vision beneath some image. The people who heard this from the children thought the children read the word “moved” wrong, but they didn’t. Does anybody know which apparition this is? I know it’s not the apparition of Lourdes or Rue de Bac. Does this mean that God’s will can be changed depending on us: depending on our prayers and repentance? Didn’t God change his mind about destroying the Israelites after Moses pleaded with him? I know God could keep from chastising people if they would only pray: I read the Rwandan massacre could have been avoided if the people only prayed the Rosary, like our Lady had requested of them. I know the Ninevites weren’t destroyed as God had first willed for them because they repented and put on sackcloth and ashes. Does this all mean that God’s will for us is not actually fixed but is determined by how we pray and act? Thanks for any help with this one! Peace!

 

[Cami4]

Well the way I see it, is that God’s will is the same for everyone. He wants everyone to know Him and follow Him, and for us to lead others to do the same. In other words, His will is for all to go to Heaven and for us to take as many people as we can with us.

So anything that brings us closer to this ultimate goal is God’s will. So, pleading with God can change His mind because His desired goal is still being achieved. We are repenting and returning to Him. See God doesn’t actually punish someone for doing wrong, in the sense of “you sinned and now God gave your kid cancer.” That would be terrible and unloving. However, He lets us reap the consequences of our actions, and He might discipline us by sending us trials. But these trials are always meant to lead us back to Him.

I hope this makes sense!

 

[mdgspencer]

Perhaps according to the plan of God, God brings us to pray so that the situation can be saved. Say, God, desiring that a sinner will not come to a bad end, leads us to pray so that the person will repent. Now that I think of it, this morning I came across something Padre Pio wrote in one of his letters–“Listen, then, to a much stranger thing. Even when I am with Jesus, I ask him for things I never had in mind to ask, to intercede for those for whom I never intended to pray and, what is more wonderful, at times for those whom I have never known, seen, or heard of. And here it must be noted that when this happens, I have never known Jesus to refuse what I ask on behalf of these people” (letter 22 in “Secrets of a Soul; Padre Pio’s Letters…”) God always answered Padre Pio’s prayer, because God wanted to help them through the prayer of Padre Pio He Himself caused in Padre Pio. In the Bible, God sends Jonah to tell a whole city that it will be destroyed. But because the inhabitants fast and pray, God relents. When Jonah is sent, we learn only a part of God’s intention when God says he will destroy the city. God also intends to relent from the destruction he would bring on them, intends to relent as he sends Jonah to warn them fruitfully.
God does say he will wipe the Israelites out. During this account, we also are shown God telling Moses that he will do this. This is all-important to what happens. He tells Moses what he will do, rather than simply destroying the people without acting immediately. God in this way, by this warning, causes Moses to pray for the people and God grants the prayer of Moses that the people not be spared. God’s readiness to wipe the Israelites out is only a part of His intention. Another part is His move to cause Moses to pray so that the people will be spared. God’s mercy is greater than His justice.

 

[ready]

Yes, what you say is true. Thanks for your response!

But does what we say mean that God’s will is not necessarily fixed?

 

[mdgspencer]

I would think that God from all eternity intends us to pray so that He will not have to wage destruction on men. His permanent intention is our prayer. So God did not suddenly decide to inspire our prayer. I hope this helps.

 

[ready]

I would think that God from all eternity intends us to pray so that He will not have to wage destruction on men. His permanent intention is our prayer. So God did not suddenly decide to inspire our prayer. I hope this helps.

Thank you, your post does help!

 

[DianaCC]

Pontmain. The original French reads, “Mais priez mes enfants Dieu vous exaucera en peu du temps mon fils se laisse toucher”. The phrase “se laisse toucher”, while it literally means “lets himself be touched”, is a French way of saying “allows himself to be influenced”. (Apparently someone indirectly involved in the apparition suggested that the children who were reporting the vision were making a grammatical error with “se laisse” and that it should have been “se lasse”, which means “gets tired”, and of course “se lasse toucher” would nonsensically mean “gets tired touch”.)

God’s will can be changed depending on us, but we need to be careful about what exactly that means. His will doesn’t change, but he does answer prayers, so when he answers a prayer, it’s because he always willed that it would be brought about ***as ***an answer to prayer.

 

[jonathanjlinn]

The easy philosophical-esque answer could be:

God WILLS that his ‘will’ be changed.

For example: Perfect judgement requires x to occur (‘will’) however, He does not want to execute said judgement on y people yet. So, using apparitions, signs, etc. He gets us to pray/ask that He hold off judgement for the benefit of those y people. By doing so, He answers our prayers, and consequently gets what He WILLS.

We often think our choices are meaningless and fixed, but original sin shows the contrary action and effects of such an idea. Our free choice led the world in a direction - all be it a bad one. Thus, the contrary - that prayers and acts of mercy move the world in a better direction most likely is true also (I would state that Faith requires it to be so). Thus, by praying - judgement (or anything being willed by Jesus) can be held off or changed because we are, in a small sense, accomplishing what the judgement was going to do itself.

All things that are willed by God are willed by Love.

Also, most things that we would ever want to change would be instances of judgement or chastisement. I think what I suggest makes sense when thinking about such acts.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

I read that Jesus can be moved. I read this in an approved appariton to some children but I can’t remember which apparition. The words “My son can be moved” or “I [Jesus] can be moved” were written in French in a vision beneath some image. The people who heard this from the children thought the children read the word “moved” wrong, but they didn’t. Does anybody know which apparition this is? I know it’s not the apparition of Lourdes or Rue de Bac. Does this mean that God’s will can be changed depending on us: depending on our prayers and repentance? Didn’t God change his mind about destroying the Israelites after Moses pleaded with him? I know God could keep from chastising people if they would only pray: I read the Rwandan massacre could have been avoided if the people only prayed the Rosary, like our Lady had requested of them. I know the Ninevites weren’t destroyed as God had first willed for them because they repented and put on sackcloth and ashes. Does this all mean that God’s will for us is not actually fixed but is determined by how we pray and act? Thanks for any help with this one! Peace!

… dear ready ,

… how are you ??? , the way i see it is god is in " now " with no time in eternity , change can only occur in time , and mysteriously there is no time or change in our world even , it is an illusion , so since god exists outside time he can change all he likes , but in reality he never changes as change can only occur in time it only appears that god changes to us — it is an illusion to us dear friend ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[DPMartin]

I read that Jesus can be moved. I read this in an approved appariton to some children but I can’t remember which apparition. The words “My son can be moved” or “I [Jesus] can be moved” were written in French in a vision beneath some image. The people who heard this from the children thought the children read the word “moved” wrong, but they didn’t. Does anybody know which apparition this is? I know it’s not the apparition of Lourdes or Rue de Bac. Does this mean that God’s will can be changed depending on us: depending on our prayers and repentance? Didn’t God change his mind about destroying the Israelites after Moses pleaded with him? I know God could keep from chastising people if they would only pray: I read the Rwandan massacre could have been avoided if the people only prayed the Rosary, like our Lady had requested of them. I know the Ninevites weren’t destroyed as God had first willed for them because they repented and put on sackcloth and ashes. Does this all mean that God’s will for us is not actually fixed but is determined by how we pray and act? Thanks for any help with this one! Peace!

ready

It is wiser to test for God’s Peace, then it is to test for God’s wrath. If God’s Peace is still available to the world, then how is it that His mind, or will is changed? Considering that it is His will to offer Peace to those who would come into agreement with His Peace that is offered.

As far as your use of Moses; I would say that there is more to that then meets the eye. It’s been my experience that a stiff-neck people will always try their very best to make you regret things not being done their way, to their satisfaction, or according to their approval. And Moses might have been experiencing regret for all that was his experience at that time, and the Lord God saw this, and showed us why, He chose Moses to do what He had Moses to do. Moses knew and understood God’s Grace and Mercy and relied on, or had Faith in that, rather then seeking some thing else to come to pass, even though this people were stiff-neck.

 

[ready]

Pontmain. The original French reads, “Mais priez mes enfants Dieu vous exaucera en peu du temps mon fils se laisse toucher”. The phrase “se laisse toucher”, while it literally means “lets himself be touched”, is a French way of saying “allows himself to be influenced”. (Apparently someone indirectly involved in the apparition suggested that the children who were reporting the vision were making a grammatical error with “se laisse” and that it should have been “se lasse”, which means “gets tired”, and of course “se lasse toucher” would nonsensically mean “gets tired touch”.)

God’s will can be changed depending on us, but we need to be careful about what exactly that means. His will doesn’t change, but he does answer prayers, so when he answers a prayer, it’s because he always willed that it would be brought about ***as ***an answer to prayer.

Yes! Thank you so much for your response! It makes sense. God’s plan for us can be changed depending on us while his will actually never changes. Is that right, Diana?

I just knew the apparition had something to do with the word Pont!

 

[ready]

The easy philosophical-esque answer could be:

God WILLS that his ‘will’ be changed.

For example: Perfect judgement requires x to occur (‘will’) however, He does not want to execute said judgement on y people yet. So, using apparitions, signs, etc. He gets us to pray/ask that He hold off judgement for the benefit of those y people. By doing so, He answers our prayers, and consequently gets what He WILLS.

We often think our choices are meaningless and fixed, but original sin shows the contrary action and effects of such an idea. Our free choice led the world in a direction - all be it a bad one. Thus, the contrary - that prayers and acts of mercy move the world in a better direction most likely is true also (I would state that Faith requires it to be so). Thus, by praying - judgement (or anything being willed by Jesus) can be held off or changed because we are, in a small sense, accomplishing what the judgement was going to do itself.

All things that are willed by God are willed by Love.

Also, most things that we would ever want to change would be instances of judgement or chastisement. I think what I suggest makes sense when thinking about such acts.

Thanks for your great post, Jonathan! So God wills that his will be changed - how wonderful and consoling! Where did you hear this? from a holy priest? This makes more sense to me than what I hear about God’s will being fixed.

 

[ready]

… dear ready ,

… how are you ??? , the way i see it is god is in " now " with no time in eternity , change can only occur in time , and mysteriously there is no time or change in our world even , it is an illusion , so since god exists outside time he can change all he likes , but in reality he never changes as change can only occur in time it only appears that god changes to us — it is an illusion to us dear friend ,

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

Thanks for your wonderful post, John! I am well, thank you! Peace and God bless!

 

[ready]

ready

It is wiser to test for God’s Peace, then it is to test for God’s wrath. If God’s Peace is still available to the world, then how is it that His mind, or will is changed? Considering that it is His will to offer Peace to those who would come into agreement with His Peace that is offered.

As far as your use of Moses; I would say that there is more to that then meets the eye. It’s been my experience that a stiff-neck people will always try their very best to make you regret things not being done their way, to their satisfaction, or according to their approval. And Moses might have been experiencing regret for all that was his experience at that time, and the Lord God saw this, and showed us why, He chose Moses to do what He had Moses to do. Moses knew and understood God’s Grace and Mercy and relied on, or had Faith in that, rather then seeking some thing else to come to pass, even though this people were stiff-neck.

Thanks for reponding, DPMartin. Yes I see, God doesn’t change. But didn’t His will change for the stiff-necked Israelites when Moses interceded for them? Wasn’t He moved by Moses’ prayers? Can’t my fervent prayers influence God and help others who might presently be the object of His wrath? Thanks for your help with this!

 

[DianaCC]

Yes! Thank you so much for your response! It makes sense. God’s plan for us can be changed depending on us while his will actually never changes. Is that right, Diana?

I just knew the apparition had something to do with the word Pont!

Right, it depends on us. You know, Ready, it’s also a handy, indirect way of discerning whether a message comes from heaven or from elsewhere. Prophecies of doom that come from heaven are always presented conditionally in terms of our moral choices, e.g. “***If you be willing, ***and will hearken to me, you shall eat the good things of the land. ***But if you will not, ***and will provoke me to wrath: the sword shall devour you because the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.” (Isaiah 1:19-20) Prophecies of doom lacking conditional reference to our own moral choices arise out of fatalism, which is a false point of view, but makes for excellent storytelling (such as Oedipus Rex).

 

[jonathanjlinn]

Thanks for your great post, Jonathan! So God wills that his will be changed - how wonderful and consoling! Where did you hear this? from a holy priest? This makes more sense to me than what I hear about God’s will being fixed.

Glad you found it helpful. I read a book: The Secrets, Chastisement, and Triumph of the Two Hearts of Jesus and Mary - by Kelly Bowring (He’s not a priest but is very well educated with the full line up of ecclesiastical degrees)

The book itself was okay as it more or less was a rehashing with commentary of a bunch of present day signs from heaven. The general theme had to do with this idea that by fasting and praying we can lighten the ‘wrath’ of God that will inevitably occur. I just tried to simplify the overriding idea as best as I could. In a sense, God’s will continues to be constant, but as someone else pointed out He will use all that we give Him to bring about the best means possible. Since I think it can be agreed less chastisement for humanity is better than more chastisement (assuming no souls are lost by choosing one over the other) then it makes sense from the human point of view that God does not desire to perform more chastisement - but His primary concern would still be salvation, so He must perform more chastisement because it is a form of Love (perhaps tough love) in order to save more souls if we do not do something more ourselves.

The ends are the same (salvation), but it seems we have the ability to change the means i.e. through prayer and fasting.

 

[DPMartin]

Thanks for reponding, DPMartin. Yes I see, God doesn’t change. But didn’t His will change for the stiff-necked Israelites when Moses interceded for them? Wasn’t He moved by Moses’ prayers? Can’t my fervent prayers influence God and help others who might presently be the object of His wrath? Thanks for your help with this!

ready

thanks for the reply, hope this helps to clarify

Ex:33:13: Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
14: And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
15: And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.
16: For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
17: And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18: And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19: And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

The important thing here is, though one has found Grace in the Presence of God, in that the Lord God knows him and his name, and would hear his case, as the Lord God did with Moses. That we like Moses accept that it is the Lord God’s judgement on who He shall be gracious, and will show mercy. Moses did not dispute this, for Moses already agreed that it is God who does this. This doesn’t mean that Moses’ intercessory prayer was not effective, but if one comes before the Mercy set, then one agrees to the Father’s Judgement.

Even Abraham respected this when he pursued the Lord for Mercy on whom the Lord would find righteous. Though the Lord and Abraham knew that it was Abraham’s Hope that the Lord would find Lot and Lot’s family righteous and deliver them.

It is said that it is God’s Will that all come unto Him. And it wouldn’t make sense that God makes man to destroy man. But man destroys himself with his own choices, which is certainly not God’s choice for man. God can intercede in the affaires of men, just as He did in the case with Israel, in the days of Moses. But those who love the things of God such as His Truth Way and Life or Wisdom Knowledge and Understanding, or Mercy Righteousness and Judgement. Love Him. Those who love that which is of God, love God. Just as Jesus said:

Jn:14:21: He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Jn:16:27: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

 

[JohnJFarren]

“HE REGRETTED THAT HE HAD MADE MAN ON THE EARTH” Genesis 6:6
NO! HE DID NOT!
My Dear Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ – 30 June 2011
Creation with all its becomings and changes does not ever make any change in God.

Noah -- Abraham -- Moses -- Jonah > none of these Biblical stories, nor any other Biblical stories, mean that God ever changed His Eternal Decisions.  It is the *meaning* of these stories that matters, not the name of Abraham or Jonah or how old they were or anything else in the stories.  “The Spirit gives Life .. the letter kills.”

The mode or manner or style of these particular stories is anthropomorphic, that is, they depict God acting as we His creatures act .. *for the purpose of* having the audience, the people to whom they were originally addressed, understand them.  Those people could not possibly understand Einstein’s General Relativity .. nor were they prepared to understand that God cannot change.

Before Adam or Eve or any other human being was ever born .. God (Knows) Knew with absolute certainty every single choice that He would ever make in cooperation with and in response to every single choice, good or bad, that every single human being (or angel) who would ever exist would ever make.  There are not and cannot ever be any exceptions.

Human beings have real freedom of choice.  “Without Me .. you can do NOTHING!”  However, read this also, “Without Me .. you CAN do no-thing.” .. O yes, you CAN fail .. you CAN sin.  You don’t need Me for that.

For God to change would mean either to LOSE something -- and that is impossible .. or .. for God to GAIN something -- and that is impossible.

/////////////////////////

A distinction must be made here between the One Will of the Trinity .. and the created human will of Jesus Christ, the Second Divine Person in His human nature.  Yet even here Jesus tells us, “I say nothing but what the Father has given me to say .. and I do nothing but what the Father has told me to do.”
I ask the Holy Spirit to Bless us all in our understandings.
Pray for me  …  John  (JohnJFarren)

 

[ready]

Right, it depends on us. You know, Ready, it’s also a handy, indirect way of discerning whether a message comes from heaven or from elsewhere. Prophecies of doom that come from heaven are always presented conditionally in terms of our moral choices, e.g. “***If you be willing, ***and will hearken to me, you shall eat the good things of the land. ***But if you will not, ***and will provoke me to wrath: the sword shall devour you because the mouth of the Lord has spoken it.” (Isaiah 1:19-20) Prophecies of doom lacking conditional reference to our own moral choices arise out of fatalism, which is a false point of view, but makes for excellent storytelling (such as Oedipus Rex).

Thanks, Diana! In my heart I have known that God can be influenced (I even believe Our Lady of Hope of Pontmain) … In light of this I don’t really understand how God’s will is fixed. Is God’s will fixed in some respects? How is his will actually fixed? Does it stay fixed so long as we do nothing to change it, but if we act very differently, God’s will for us could change too? (for example, if we sleep all day and don’t pray enough, then what God ordains for our future might be one thing; but if we change and begin to attend to prayer, penance, the sacraments, charitable works, spiritual reading - all with a loving heart - then what God ordains to happen to us might be different.

Some people have said that when we pray it is not to change God but only ourselves because God’s will is fixed. How can this be true? Aren’t both God and man influenced by a man’s prayers. Can’t God’s will for a sick person change after a prayer for healing, or does it only appear to change? Was the healing God granted his will all along (or part of a fixed will on his part)? Consider this story. There is a story about a saint who asked for a healing. God immediately healed her, but then she prayed to him that if it were better for her soul that she be sick for him to give her back the sickness. God then gave her the sickness back. Doesn’t this show that God’s will isn’t constant but depends on a number of things? Please help! Why do I hear that God’s will is fixed? … I could argue that it both is and isn’t fixed, but then that’s a contracticion.

 

[DianaCC]

It’s hard to talk about changes in God’s will because he is not measured by time and is himself totally unchanging in every respect. Plus he already knows what you are going to do ahead of time anyway, so changing what we do doesn’t change his will either.

The stuff about changing ourselves is not much more than pop psychology, although it does teach a lesson about frivolously praying for things that are within your power to do something about. But it’s a difficult subject. It keeps boiling down to the two 100% certain facts that God does not change in any way, including in his will, but that we live in a world of change. I know it sounds like a contradiction, but it isn’t.