Jesus Can Be Moved: What Does This Say about the Fixedness of His Will?

[JohnJFarren]

“THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL” 1 Cor 15:28
Hello ready –
Thanks for your response posting. The basic remains absolute > God in His Divine Nature cannot change.

Let me share a little from Theology of the Old Testament by Heinisch-Heidt, Liturgical Press, 1955 –
“Changelessness, the antithesis of mutability, excludes any development or decay, any passing from one condition to another. Since God is eternal, He is subject to no progression or retrogression; He is free from all types of change. ……. There are not lacking passages which seemingly predicate to God changes of heart and will, e.g., He forgives and forgets about punishment that had been threatened, He retracts promises given. One of the more significant of these is in Osee, ‘How could I deliver you over to oppression, Ephraim, abandon you, Israel? My heart turns against me, my mercy too is flaming up. I do not want to act according to my fierce wrath.’ Yet because of his changelessness God cannot regret a decision or an action, a threat or a promise once made. Osee himself continues, ‘I am God, not a man; a Holy One in your midst, I do not destroy.’ … Evidence that God cannot repent may be found in Num 23:19: 1 Sam 15:29. All such passages that imply repentance on God’s part aree anthropomorphic in nature.” pp.65-66. … And also Section 8, article 3, Anthropormorphisms.

This understanding is also important in response to the question, *Can God’s Divine Nature Suffer?*
Blessing to you, ready, and to all  …..  John   (JohnJFarren)

 

[tonyrey]

Saying God’s Will is fixed gives the impression that He is static - which is absurd given that He is the Creator and Sustainer of everything and everyone that exists. Existence is a state but it presupposes energy and activity. Love is dynamic and causes change. God’s love cannot change because it is absolute and perfect without any defect but it is certainly not passive!

“In Him we live, move and have our being”.

“In” of course is metaphorical because we have no word which corresponds to God’s relationship with His creatures. Our problems arise because we assume our descriptions of God are accurate but they are no more than symbols which help us to focus our attention on the Ultimate Reality.

Jesus used the word “Father” because He knows abstractions are often more of a hindrance than a help. He also told us that His Father is moved by our prayers and answers them. If we cannot understand how that is possible it is not His fault but ours! Sooner or later we have to admit there is a limit to our insight into the “mysterium tremens et fascinans” but that is no obstacle to obeying His command to love others as He **loves **us…

 

[ready]

“THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL” 1 Cor 15:28
Hello ready –
Thanks for your response posting. The basic remains absolute > God in His Divine Nature cannot change.

Let me share a little from Theology of the Old Testament by Heinisch-Heidt, Liturgical Press, 1955 –
“Changelessness, the antithesis of mutability, excludes any development or decay, any passing from one condition to another. Since God is eternal, He is subject to no progression or retrogression; He is free from all types of change. ……. There are not lacking passages which seemingly predicate to God changes of heart and will, e.g., He forgives and forgets about punishment that had been threatened, He retracts promises given. One of the more significant of these is in Osee, ‘How could I deliver you over to oppression, Ephraim, abandon you, Israel? My heart turns against me, my mercy too is flaming up. I do not want to act according to my fierce wrath.’ Yet because of his changelessness God cannot regret a decision or an action, a threat or a promise once made. Osee himself continues, ‘I am God, not a man; a Holy One in your midst, I do not destroy.’ … Evidence that God cannot repent may be found in Num 23:19: 1 Sam 15:29. All such passages that imply repentance on God’s part aree anthropomorphic in nature.” pp.65-66. … And also Section 8, article 3, Anthropormorphisms.

This understanding is also important in response to the question, *Can God’s Divine Nature Suffer?*
Blessing to you, ready, and to all  …..  John   (JohnJFarren)

Yes, I see. But did God say he repented or did the prophet say God repented? If the prophet said this I can easlily understand such a thing as being anthropomorphic. But who said God repented: God or the prophet? I don’t remember the Bible Passage so I can’t answer this myself. Thanks for your help with this! I figure the Prophet must have been the one to say that God repented because why would God say this seeing it is true he can not repent. Your help is greatly appreciated, John. Thank you for taking the time to help me with this.

 

[ready]

Saying God’s Will is fixed gives the impression that He is static - which is absurd given that He is the Creator and Sustainer of everything and everyone that exists. Existence is a state but it presupposes energy and activity. Love is dynamic and causes change. God’s love cannot change because it is absolute and perfect without any defect but it is certainly not passive!

“In Him we live, move and have our being”.

“In” of course is metaphorical because we have no word which corresponds to God’s relationship with His creatures. Our problems arise because we assume our descriptions of God are accurate but they are no more than symbols which help us to focus our attention on the Ultimate Reality.

Jesus used the word “Father” because He knows abstractions are often more of a hindrance than a help. He also told us that His Father is moved by our prayers and answers them. If we cannot understand how that is possible it is not His fault but ours! Sooner or later we have to admit there is a limit to our insight into the “mysterium tremens et fascinans” but that is no obstacle to obeying His command to love others as He **loves **us…

Thanks, Tonyrey. I know God is the same today, yesterday and forever, but it also appears to me that He can be influenced by zealous and persistent prayers and sacrifices. In other words, He can grant a holy man something today that He wouldn’t have granted him before because before the holy man’s prayers weren’t perfect enough or said enough times. What do you think?

 

[JohnJFarren]

MAY GOD’S ETERNAL WILL BE DONE
Hello Ready … and all interested –
In good spirit … in Holy Spirit … I post to you and all.

You posted to TonyRey, “… it also appears to me that He can be influenced by zealous and persistent prayers and sacrifices.” The word “influenced” takes us back to the original question … leaving it open and unresolved. For God to be “influenced” by a creature … in the sense that the creature is causing a change in God … makes the creature the cause … and the effect being God changed. This won’t do.

I am not considering here the human will of Jesus Christ. I am think here only of the Divine Nature and the absolute impossibility of the Divine Nature ever changing.

There is much more to be said here, especially about God’s Eternal Will. Ready, I think the best approach to this “influenced” matter can best be addressed in a new thread. I intend to begin that new thread. To prepare my first posting in the new thread will take me a couple days. When I’m ready and begin the new thread, I’ll post that info and location here, and I’ll send you a private message telling you the same.

The matter is important and I think it should be followed through. I’ll let you know.
Blessing in Jesus and Mary! Pray for me … JohnJFarren

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

There is much more to be said here, especially about God’s Eternal Will. Ready, I think the best approach to this “influenced” matter can best be addressed in a new thread.

I’ve come late to the discussion, but also think this issue of influence deserves deeper inquiry, partly because its part of a larger conversation on how we approach Scripture.

Not to pre-empt you, John, but may I suggest that, as Christians, we must begin our discussion and understanding of Scripture with the Resurrection, the fullest expression of God’s nature and mercy, and interpret from there? Which is to say, the Resurrection reveals that God’s fixed and immovable will is and alway has been on love, that God’s will has never been, nor ever will be, fixed on death in any way shape form or fashion. Which is to further say that, to the extent to which we believe or interpret scripture to show that God has been involved with death (as willing it, approving it, or causing it), then it is to that same extent that we are viewing God through our own death-constructed selves. This in turn suggests that part of the Good News which we see in the Scriptures which is realized in Christ is that God has been gradually leading humanity out of a perception of him as involved with death and into a new relationship with him in which our perceptions and ourselves are reconstituted in, by and for love, with death having nothing at all to do with what and who God is.

With this understanding, we can see that it is not so much God being influenced by anyone or anything, but we who are influenced by God’s mercy, *our *minds which are changed from wrath (death) to love. And this change produces a new perception of God.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[JohnJFarren]

THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL Greetings Mark, Deo Volente –
Your sharing is beautiful. I agree whole heartedly.

God Is BEING … and in no way non-being. And our understanding, by God’s grace in Jesus and the Holy Spirit, is to mature into the full understanding of Jesus Christ.

Mark, I’ll let you know when I’ve posted here INTO a new thread, and location on forum.

I look forwardf to your sharing with me, with us.

In closing I share some verses that are filled with mystery > “And when all things have been subjected to him [Jesus Christ], then the Son also must be subjected to the One, so that God may be All in all.” 1 Cor 15:28.

Until later … God’s Will be done! John JohnJFarren Trinity5635@aol.com

 

[tonyrey]

Saying God’s Will is fixed gives the impression that He is static - which is absurd given that He is the Creator and Sustainer of everything and everyone that exists. Existence is a state but it presupposes energy and activity. Love is dynamic and causes

Since God knows what we are going to do He treats us accordingly! He forgives us we forgive others and cares for us without having to alter His Will. Even we are always the same persons regardless of our decisions. We never lose our identity. The difference is that our moral attributes change whereas His are immutable. He is eternally perfect in every respect: infinitely good, loving, merciful and just… and all these attributes imply activity and creativity. The antithesis of divine power is inertia!

 

[ready]

Thanks, John! It would be great if you could address the approved apparition I mentioned in my first post where Mary says that her Son can ne influenced) … unless you don’t want to because it is a private revelation and not part of our deposit of faith. God bless!

MAY GOD’S ETERNAL WILL BE DONE
Hello Ready … and all interested –
In good spirit … in Holy Spirit … I post to you and all.

You posted to TonyRey, “… it also appears to me that He can be influenced by zealous and persistent prayers and sacrifices.” The word “influenced” takes us back to the original question … leaving it open and unresolved. For God to be “influenced” by a creature … in the sense that the creature is causing a change in God … makes the creature the cause … and the effect being God changed. This won’t do.

I am not considering here the human will of Jesus Christ. I am think here only of the Divine Nature and the absolute impossibility of the Divine Nature ever changing.

There is much more to be said here, especially about God’s Eternal Will. Ready, I think the best approach to this “influenced” matter can best be addressed in a new thread. I intend to begin that new thread. To prepare my first posting in the new thread will take me a couple days. When I’m ready and begin the new thread, I’ll post that info and location here, and I’ll send you a private message telling you the same.

The matter is important and I think it should be followed through. I’ll let you know.
Blessing in Jesus and Mary! Pray for me … JohnJFarren

 

[ready]

Since God knows what we are going to do He treats us accordingly! He forgives us we forgive others and cares for us without having to alter His Will. Even we are always the same persons regardless of our decisions. We never lose our identity. The difference is that our moral attributes change whereas His are immutable. He is eternally perfect in every respect: infinitely good, loving, merciful and just… and all these attributes imply activity and creativity. The antithesis of divine power is inertia!

Yes, I understand. Thanks for you r response!

 

[JohnJFarren]

“WE HAVE THIS CONFIDENCE, THAT WHATEVER WE ASK IN PRAYER,
THAT IS ACCORDING TO GOD’S WILL, HE WILL LISTEN” 1 John 5:14
Hi ready –
You wrote, “John! It would be great if you could address the approved apparition I mentioned in my first post where Mary says that her Son can ne influenced.”

Most assuredly Jesus in His human nature can be influence by our prayers … and above all by Mary’s prayers.

It’s essential to specify “in His human nature.” Because God in God’s Divine Nature cannot be influenced by absolutely anything.

We must remember that in the One Person, the Second Divine Person Incarnate, Jesus Christ, there are two complete and perfect natures, the Divine Nature AND a human nature. That complete human nature has a human intellect, a human free will, all the emotions the rest of us have.

These things are true whether or not any private revelation is really from God or not.

Make sense? Blessing! John Allandnothing

 

[ready]

Thanks, John! What you say makes sense. I look forward to reading your thread!

 

[ready]

"The explanation is that what the first set of passages says is absolutely true, that God is absolutely unchangeable, He is ‘the same yesterday, and today and forever’ (Hebrews 13:8). But the second class of passages is also true, for if God does remain the same in character, infinitely hating sin and absolutely unchangeable in His purpose to visit sin with judgment, then if any city or any person changes in attitude toward sin, God must necessarily change in His attitude toward that person or city. If God remains the same, if His attitude toward sin and righteousness is unchanging, then must His dealings with men change as they turn from sin to repentance. His character remains ever the same, but His dealings with men change as they change from the position that is hateful to His unchanging hatred of sin to one that is pleasing to His unchanging love of righteousness.”

SOURCE: R.A. Torrey, “Difficulties in the Bible”

Here is an awesome passage that interests me because it really realtes to my question and view. The source isn’t a great one, but the passage is worth considing because it reflects what I have been thinking in light of the approved apparition I mentioned in my first post where Mary says that her son can be moved. Is what this author says true? I believe the source is not Catholic so we can take it with a grain of salt … but let us not ignore it because it is the closest thing to what I believe has been posted on this thread.

 

[JohnJFarren]

WHEN ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN VALUED …
ONLY GOD HAS ABSOLUTE VALUE 4 Sept 2011
Hello ready –
No. The quotation given immediately above is false. First it says NO. Then it explains YES. The writer would have it both ways – AFTER admitting that God absolutely cannot change.

Let’s begin with this truth > GOD IN GOD’S DIVINE NATURE CANNOT CHANGE … ABSOLUTELY ETERNALLY CANNOT CHANGE.

I’ll just touch on the roots of this situation because I want to further develop them in a new thread I’m focusing in my mind.

Prior (key word) to creation … “when” nothing existed but God … there was NOTHING other than God to know. Therefore God did not Know creation because there was nothing to know.

Consequent (key word) to God’s Eternal Free decision to create, creation existed and there was something to know. God did Know absolutely everything that would ever happen from beginning to conclusion. Before any of us were born … subsequent to God’s Act of Creating … God Knew with absolute certainty every free choice each of us would make, good or bad. Knowing that, fitting all that into His Eternal Plan, God decided how He would handle every single act of our, good or bad. So – by the “time” the Big Bang is 1 super trillion billion and less … the whole Great Plan of God is Known and Decided and Complete. God did not and does change … not only because God CANNOT change (cannot gain, cannot lose) … but also because everything has been Divinely and Wisely and Lovingly and Justly and Wisely ALREADY COMPLETE.

God doesn’t Exist in time as we necessarily do. God Exists in Eternity.

I know this seems heavy stuff … but when grasped as a whole it is not.

Every Blessing, ready. I’m looking forward to beginning a new thread.
John (JohnJFarren)

 

[ready]

Thanks, John! God bless!

 

[JohnJFarren]

“WHAT HAVE I NOT GIVEN YOU AND SHARED WITH YOU …
MY SONS AND DAUGHTERS?”
Dear Fellow Sons and Daughters of God …
especially ready and Deo Volente – 7 Sept 2011
The time has come, I think, for a new topic, thread, to be begun. Major points here have been largely exhausted … and further clarifications are leading us afield.

Therefore … I intend to begin a new topic, a new thread, and to post it in Catholc Living \ Spirituality \ We Share with God Making His Eternal Decisions.

I intend, I hope, to post the opening statement later today … before 7th Sept becomes 8th Sept.

I look forward to your interest and your sharings … and those of all other people interested … including your disagreeing and expressing why.

Jesus and Mary Bless us all! John (JohnJFarren)