Jesus Christ, a context dependent God?

[Michael19682]

If WE suddenly lost or had revoked, all the Hebrew scriptures or if we lived in a governmental regime that forbade them, and if there were strict isolation of peoples from each other; if all we were was a group of people assigned to make “a religion” of the New Testament, using it exactly in the form it is now (no Saintly writing is yet to be written, no structured Mass is available for guidance), would we be able to make a sensible interpretation of the Lord?

In so responding, if “YES”, kindly give a brief description of the “sense” you think might be achieved?

 

[PaulfromIowa]

The Apostles did exactly that. The Church dates from Pentecost, before the New Testament books were written. They knew how to preach the Gospel, baptize, celebrate the Eucharist, etc., because Christ had taught them.

 

[revert_jen]

It’s very late, and maybe I’ve just gone stupid, but I don’t see what the title of this thread has to do with the question you ask in the original post.

There’s a reason that the Father caused His Son to be born in a particular time and place. It wasn’t just random. And there’s certainly a reason why, as they say, Christ started a Church instead of writing a book.

I’m just not sure what you’re getting at, sorry.

–Jen

 

[KendraDZ1902]

The Apostles did exactly that. The Church dates from Pentecost, before the New Testament books were written. They knew how to preach the Gospel, baptize, celebrate the Eucharist, etc., because Christ had taught them.

But didn’t they have the Old Testament or something similar?

 

[PaulfromIowa]

But didn’t they have the Old Testament or something similar?

They did. They were Jews so they had all that history and tradition. But they knew that Christianity was a new law and they knew that the Temple in Jerusalem was going to be destroyed as Jesus foretold.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

They did. They were Jews so they had all that history and tradition. But they knew that Christianity was a new law and they knew that the Temple in Jerusalem was going to be destroyed as Jesus foretold.

Right, but I was under the impression that the OP said we didn’t have that in this hypothetical situation.

 

[Michael19682]

]It’s very late, and maybe I’ve just gone stupid, but I don’t see what the title of this thread has to do with the question you ask in the original post.

I’m sure your not stupid.

There’s a reason that the Father caused His Son to be born in a particular time and place. It wasn’t just random

.
What is the reason?

And there’s certainly a reason why, as they say, Christ started a Church instead of writing a book.

How did the authors of the New Testament write it, then. The Holy Spirit’s guidance. I know you said the Son, but it’s a close call. A very close call.

I’m just not sure what you’re getting at, sorry.

I asked a question not for rhetorical, but philosophical purposes. Which brings to mind again: philosophers knew of God. Yet still, the gospel is not well received everywhere God is or was known about. In fact, the pagan world was eventually more interesting in “adopting” Christianity than the people of the Old Testament. Context as I stated it does appear to me now to refer to “book context”. Yet our religion is not worship of a story, but of God. This perplexes me. There is the hymn, Gentile or Jew, woman or man, no more…If the gospel teaches in essence that we are not Gentiles of Jews any longer, I want to know the significance of the Old Testament as opposed to the theistic traditions of other people whom God apparently chose to isolate his Son’s initial appearance therefrom? Would that be a better restatement?

–Jen

 

[Michael19682]

Right, but I was under the impression that the OP said we didn’t have that in this hypothetical situation.

You are correct in your reading:thumbsup:

 

[Michael19682]

The Apostles did exactly that. The Church dates from Pentecost, before the New Testament books were written. They knew how to preach the Gospel, baptize, celebrate the Eucharist, etc., because Christ had taught them.

At mass we use the Old Testament books. What if we could not use them for some godforsaken and unimaginable reason?

 

[JRKH]

If WE suddenly lost or had revoked, all the Hebrew scriptures or if we lived in a governmental regime that forbade them, and if there were strict isolation of peoples from each other; if all we were was a group of people assigned to make “a religion” of the New Testament, using it exactly in the form it is now (no Saintly writing is yet to be written, no structured Mass is available for guidance), would we be able to make a sensible interpretation of the Lord?

In so responding, if “YES”, kindly give a brief description of the “sense” you think might be achieved?

I believe the answer here is NO. The scenario presented above removes Christ and the NT from the context in which it needs to exist. The context in which God placed it.
Without that full context it would be very difficult to properly understand the NT.

Carrying this into the real world…we can sometimes see this in some SS type groups where they intentionally isolate themselves from the history and traditions of Christianity and attempt to (re)build a “New Testament Church” just using the NT text as a guide.

Just some quick thoughts…

Peace
James

 

[Michael19682]

I believe the answer here is NO. The scenario presented above removes Christ and the NT from the context in which it needs to exist. The context in which God placed it.
Without that full context it would be very difficult to properly understand the NT.

Carrying this into the real world…we can sometimes see this in some SS type groups where they intentionally isolate themselves from the history and traditions of Christianity and attempt to (re)build a “New Testament Church” just using the NT text as a guide.

Just some quick thoughts…

Peace
James

please reference “SS type groups”? What have they informed us?

By the way, I’m sure by the phrase “placed it”, the pronoun “it” which refers to your compound subject “Christ and the NT” is only more correctly written “placed him”? I say this because someone else has pointed out a perceived disparity between the title question and the OP question. I personally think both are exciting philosophical lines of inquiry that hopefully do have a real vertex of their own.

 

[JRKH]

please reference “SS type groups”? What have they informed us?

They have informed us of the many possible avenues, variations, errors and such that can arise from taking just one piece out of the context of the whole.

Peace
James

 

[Michael19682]

They have informed us of the many possible avenues, variations, errors and such that can arise from taking just one piece out of the context of the whole.

Peace
James

The inspiration of your elder status on the forums is not unappreciated, but I still do not know who you are talking about when you say “SS type groups.” My google search indicates only an error.

Would you provide an avenue or variation of these groups that is acceptable to God?

 

[hazcompat]

Romans 2:14For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts,* while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

This is true whether or not it is written.

Peace

 

[Michael19682]

Romans 2:14For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts,* while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

This is true whether or not it is written.

Peace

Good. What if in “the world” as hypothesized in the OP, a child should ask upon hearing or reading, “What is a Gentile?”

 

[JRKH]

The inspiration of your elder status on the forums is not unappreciated, but I still do not know who you are talking about when you say “SS type groups.” My google search indicates only an error.

Would you provide an avenue or variation of these groups that is acceptable to God?

SS is short for “Sola Scriptura”. and there are certain Sola Scriptura groups that can come close to your description. While they retain the the majority of the biblical books (66) they discard everything else and try to build using ONLY the bible.
While this is not as stringent as the scenario you describe, it is the analogy that came to mind.

Peace
James

 

[Michael19682]

SS is short for “Sola Scriptura”. and there are certain Sola Scriptura groups that can come close to your description. While they retain the the majority of the biblical books (66) they discard everything else and try to build using ONLY the bible.
While this is not as stringent as the scenario you describe, it is the analogy that came to mind.

Peace
James

Very interesting. It sounds like SS is something undesirable from a Catholic standpoint. If my scenario is more stringent in your opinion then it must be very undesirable in your estimation, so perhaps it behooves the thread to ask for an example of something Catholic that is not “built” using ONLY the bible?

 

[JRKH]

Very interesting. It sounds like SS is something undesirable from a Catholic standpoint. If my scenario is more stringent in your opinion then it must be very undesirable in your estimation, so perhaps it behooves the thread to ask for an example of something Catholic that is not “built” using ONLY the bible?

Nothing in Catholicism was built using “only the Bible”. Since the Bible was not fully assembled until around 400 AD - and that by Church councils - it follows that all that came before, much of the structure and teachings of the Church was built using a different model…not Sola Scriptura.

 

[Michael19682]

Nothing in Catholicism was built using “only the Bible”. Since the Bible was not fully assembled until around 400 AD - and that by Church councils - it follows that all that came before, much of the structure and teachings of the Church was built using a different model…not Sola Scriptura.

It is difficult to connect the dots of your position. Much of “[that] structure” came from the customs of Judaism that later became imperfectly written as law. As for a book being bound up, well, the New Testament’s words come from the Lord. Therefore the conclusion I draw is that everything is built from scripture, and sola scriptura as you like to call it is true. SS is only heretical, you might say, when scripture is bound up inextricably from a book. When some say that we are a people of the word, not a people of the book, are they not really expanding the scope and meaning of “book” to include all that is true when they read sayings like:

John 5:39 “You search the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf.”
John 21:25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written

 

[KendraDZ1902]

It is difficult to connect the dots of your position. Much of “[that] structure” came from the customs of Judaism that later became imperfectly written as law. As for a book being bound up, well, the New Testament’s words come from the Lord. Therefore the conclusion I draw is that everything is built from scripture, and sola scriptura as you like to call it is true. SS is only heretical, you might say, when scripture is bound up inextricably from a book. When some say that we are a people of the word, not a people of the book, are they not really expanding the scope and meaning of “book” to include all that is true when they read sayings like:

John 5:39 “You search the scriptures, because you think you have eternal life through them; even they testify on my behalf.”
John 21:25 There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written

If Sola Scriptura is true, then what about Sacred Tradition?