Jesus Christ, a context dependent God?

[Michael19682]

If Sola Scriptura is true, then what about Sacred Tradition?

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.”

I’m trying not to let your honest inquiry excuse evasiveness on my part. Would you say that the Sacred Scriptures, at least insofar as their margin-bound exegesis is concerned, are part of the Church’s tradition? And likewise, that Tradition can be found in the Scriptures, eg, the institution of the Sacraments? If the Catechism sees perpetuation and transmission in this, the connection then is “so very” close that all that is valuable in tradition, indeed all of tradition, can be gleaned from the Sacred Scripture called the New Testament. Thus, as the OP asked about interpreting the Lord, would you agree that in the scenario of the OP, Sacred Tradition could be newly discerned by and in communication with Heaven as we are instructed to pray for from God?

Rev 21:2 "I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain, [for] the old order has passed away.”

 

[KendraDZ1902]

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.”

I’m trying not to let your honest inquiry excuse evasiveness on my part. Would you say that the Sacred Scriptures, at least insofar as their margin-bound exegesis is concerned, are part of the Church’s tradition? And likewise, that Tradition can be found in the Scriptures, eg, the institution of the Sacraments? If the Catechism sees perpetuation and transmission in this, the connection then is “so very” close that all that is valuable in tradition, indeed all of tradition, can be gleaned from the Sacred Scripture called the New Testament. Thus, as the OP asked about interpreting the Lord, would you agree that in the scenario of the OP, Sacred Tradition could be newly discerned by and in communication with Heaven as we are instructed to pray for from God?

Rev 21:2 "I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there shall be no more death or mourning, wailing or pain, [for] the old order has passed away.”

Sacred Tradition is “the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation” (Dei Verbum 2) That would also include the OT. So we would have to have the OT to have some Sacred Tradition. Therefore, we couldn’t just have the NT dropped in our laps and have the same church we have.

 

[hazcompat]

Good. What if in “the world” as hypothesized in the OP, a child should ask upon hearing or reading, “What is a Gentile?”

As I understand the OP there is no gentile, Greek, slave, free or scripture? God is the reader of hearts?

Peace

 

[Michael19682]

Sacred Tradition is “the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation” (Dei Verbum 2) That would also include the OT. So we would have to have the OT to have some Sacred Tradition. Therefore, we couldn’t just have the NT dropped in our laps and have the same church we have.

Mark 7:11-13
Yet you say, ‘If a person says to father or mother, “Any support you might have had from me is qorban”’* (meaning, dedicated to God), you allow him to do nothing more for his father or mother. You nullify the word of God in favor of your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many such things.”

The NT, “dropped in our laps”, as you say, is arduously laden with implicit and explicit warnings about the OT. Again, this interpretation as relates to the OP hinges on a “philosophy” of the word and Scripture. You use the words “some Sacred Tradition”. What tradition do we have that Holy Spirit he sent didn’t give us? Is not the Covenant totally new these days?

 

[Michael19682]

As I understand the OP there is no gentile, Greek, slave, free or scripture? God is the reader of hearts?

Peace

No scripture?

God must be the reader, for he created the human heart? Jesus reinforces the essential labors in the Old Testament, and I should worship him because he is God, and better than I can ever worship him because his labor deserves a wage I can never pay unless he accepts what I offer, miserable grumbler that I would be forever, hearing and seeing and being converted.

Luke 6:47-48
"I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them. That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Mark 7:11-13
Yet you say, ‘If a person says to father or mother, “Any support you might have had from me is qorban”’* (meaning, dedicated to God), you allow him to do nothing more for his father or mother. You nullify the word of God in favor of your tradition that you have handed on. And you do many such things.”

The NT, “dropped in our laps”, as you say, is arduously laden with implicit and explicit warnings about the OT. Again, this interpretation as relates to the OP hinges on a “philosophy” of the word and Scripture. You use the words “some Sacred Tradition”. What tradition do we have that Holy Spirit he sent didn’t give us? Is not the Covenant totally new these days?

121: The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. The books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

121-123 of the CCC speaks about the Old Testament being venerated and that the church has always rejected the idea that the New has rendered it void.

 

[Michael19682]

It is getting late and before retiring from the Forums for the evening I thank everyone who has participated. I have learned some things anew, and have been chastised to my benefit also.

Please feel that you can and should give more explanation to any points you feel slipped past you or to points that were (as I experienced) unavailable to memory or speech as it may have been. I am greatly encouraged by the way things are going with this thread for me and would be remiss to not offer my voice in prayer for all you who have helped me grow into a deeper understanding of my OP’s personal meaning.

If anyone (new OR old) wants other direction I will take the restatement in post # 7 as a guidepost. To that I add reminder:

Jesus said that salvation comes from the Jews. He also said that the laborer deserves his wage. ((I don’t believe that he meant this truth only for the Jewish laborer.)) He repeatedly tells people to come to him personally, in prayer, in fasting, in repentance. The work of God is to believe in the One he sent; pray, fast, repent, love only…Yet the opening of the world’s literal four “corners” as well as its familiar inner quadrants indicates that other “spiritual” traditions have labored in search of God’s salvation. In the original OP I might have seemed motivated by anger about their neglect in our Tradition and thus seeking to redesign my City of God without paying anyone for labor. I assure you all, I never wished to fire from service those deceased who labored to build the OT as a Scripture, nor abolish a Sacred tradition that holds that very work “imperfect”. Nor do I wish to set up a regime closer to an imagined, more fair distribution of human spiritual pay outs. Certain signs in my life do give me what I believe is a correct understanding of the “super” inflated human price that we often pay in the world for the simple use of these books. I believe this is one of the reasons people do not go to Church as much as they want to.
Consider one verse from among the writings of the minor prophets, this one from Amos Chapter 3, Verse 9.

Proclaim this in the strongholds of Assyria,
in the strongholds of the land of Egypt:
“Gather on the mount of Samaria,
and see the great disorders within it,
the oppressions within its midst.”

Vilification like in the verse above, what do they add to our understanding of a people whose “representatives” in the NT are more than speedy to accept and offer worship than almost anyone else.
On reading the above verse from Amos, I immediately think of the Woman at the Well as depicted in
Jn 4.

That’s all I can say now. Sorry if I leave too many threads loose. It appears I’ve used shrunken cloth.

 

[Michael19682]

121: The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. The books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

121-123 of the CCC speaks about the Old Testament being venerated and that the church has always rejected the idea that the New has rendered it void.

Not “sole dispenser”, however. Others know about God apart from the OT.
Not revoked, but altered so as to be at odds with it. Saturday vs. Sunday worship, and
many other new traditions.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Not “sole dispenser”, however. Others know about God apart from the OT.
Not revoked, but altered so as to be at odds with it. Saturday vs. Sunday worship, and
many other new traditions.

I have never met someone who knew about Christianity and not know about Adam and Eve, Noah and the Ark, Moses, David and Goliath, etc.
It isn’t at odds with. The Church was given the ability to bind and loosen. I never said it was the sole dispenser, however, the church you proclaim to be a member of says that the OT is important.

 

[Michael19682]

I have never met someone who knew about Christianity and not know about Adam and Eve, Noah and the Ark, Moses, David and Goliath, etc.
It isn’t at odds with. The Church was given the ability to bind and loosen. I never said it was the sole dispenser, however, the church you proclaim to be a member of says that the OT is important.

Oh, I know it is important. I was just emphasizing the importance also of other people estranged from the message of Christ because of the neglect of the indigenous spiritual writings to which they remain attached.
I think OT is as odds with the NT along certain lines, when considering how much Jesus condemned the leaders; and how much they despised him. But, I suppose therein is the human drama, preserved.
That drama makes secular society go round. But look at the world at large.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Oh, I know it is important. I was just emphasizing the importance also of other people estranged from the message of Christ because of the neglect of the indigenous spiritual writings to which they remain attached.
I think OT is as odds with the NT along certain lines, when considering how much Jesus condemned the leaders; and how much they despised him. But, I suppose therein is the human drama, preserved.
That drama makes secular society go round. But look at the world at large.

From my understanding, there are different categories of laws in the OT. One could say that the NT is at odds with itself, since different denominations interpret it differently.

 

[Michael19682]

From my understanding, there are different categories of laws in the OT. One could say that the NT is at odds with itself, since different denominations interpret it differently.

Therein, your statement about the NT is a very interesting point that I’m not sure how to clarify for myself or you in light of the pronouncement of Jesus about a kingdom divided against itself in Mk 3:24.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Therein, your statement about the NT is a very interesting point that I’m not sure how to clarify for myself or you in light of the pronouncement of Jesus about a kingdom divided against itself in Mk 3:24.

It also warns about false teachers several times.

 

[Michael19682]

It also warns about false teachers several times.

What false teaching are you referring to?
Any thing in this thread that you see false?

 

[KendraDZ1902]

What false teaching are you referring to?
Any thing in this thread that you see false?

It was in response to the Kingdom being divided. Jesus said it would happen and we were warned several times of false teachers and some still didn’t get it.

 

[Michael19682]

It was in response to the Kingdom being divided. Jesus said it would happen and we were warned several times of false teachers and some still didn’t get it.

Jesus said the kingdom would be divided? I know he said that he is a cause of division, particularly within families. And at the end of times. Is that what you mean?

 

[KendraDZ1902]

Jesus said the kingdom would be divided? I know he said that he is a cause of division, particularly within families. And at the end of times. Is that what you mean?

Yes. There seems to many divisions in Christianity and my family have members of several different churches. Heck, we even have some denominations thinking about allowing SSM.
We were warned about false teachers several times in the bible, we were warned about this, but people have decided to not listen. That’s why we have so many interpretations, I believe.

 

[tonyrey]

There is no doubt that our first ancestors were barbaric! God created us on a planet subject to all the limitations of a physical existence (as the Catechism points out). Life was not idyllic but it was valuable in many ways. Rousseau was right in his belief that nature is fundamentally precious and beautiful in spite of the harshness of the law of the jungle. It was in that context that Revelation occurred for the first time but it couldn’t be a once-for-all affair because intellectual, moral, social and spiritual development are necessary before we can attain perfection.

The Old Testament describes this process of gradual enlightenment in which the Chosen People were unique in their insight into the nature of God. Like St John the Baptist the prophets prepared the way for the coming of the Messiah who demonstrated the glory and perfection of divine love. In other cultures Socrates is an example of those who anticipated a higher level of unselfish behaviour. The Roman Empire provided an excellent means of communicating the Good News throughout the known world at a time when there was a ferment of religious activity in the Middle East. In a vain attempt to impose the authority of Caesar initial tolerance gave way to persecution but, as Tertullian pointed out, the blood of the martyrs was the seed of the Church. Jesus had succeeded in liberating us from the darkness of idolatry and paganism. Even so we still have to respond to His message of love for all Creation. He is indeed the context within which we should live and die because He is the Son of God!

 

[Michael19682]

tonyrey;13103631.:

The Roman Empire provided an excellent means of communicating the Good News throughout the known world at a time when there was a ferment of religious activity in the Middle East. In a vain attempt to impose the authority of Caesar initial tolerance gave way to persecution but, as Tertullian pointed out, the blood of the martyrs was the seed of the Church. Jesus had succeeded in liberating us from the darkness of idolatry and paganism.

In post#7 & #5 revert_jen wrote:

And there’s certainly a reason why, as they say, Christ started a Church instead of writing a book…There’s a reason that the Father caused His Son to be born in a particular time and place. It wasn’t just random

It’s sounds, tonyrey, like you are giving an answer to the expression of revert_jen, particularly in the bold text. Is this possible?

 

[Wyrd]

I thought this was going to be a very different thread like for example how would Aliens react to the Gospel should they exist, etc