Jesus Christ, a context dependent God?

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In post#7 & #5 revert_jen wrote:

It’s sounds, tonyrey, like you are giving an answer to the expression of revert_jen, particularly in the bold text. Is this possible?
The issue is whether we would be able to make a sensible interpretation of the Lord without the Old Testament. The answer is that we could understand His moral teaching but we wouldn’t understand it in its theological, moral and historical context. For a start, original sin would be missing, there would be no Chosen People, the Messiah would have come out of the blue and all the New Testament references to the prophets and the Decalogue omitted!
 
I thought this was going to be a very different thread like for example how would Aliens react to the Gospel should they exist, etc
In a remote part of Nigeria I talked about Jesus to a group with a tribal religion and I was surprised by their eagerness to know more. It is difficult for us to understand the impact of the Gospels on some one who has never heard of God’s love for us. But then it is a direct message from Heaven!

BTW I didn’t refer to the Old Testament on that occasion. 🙂
 
In a remote part of Nigeria I talked about Jesus to a group with a tribal religion and I was surprised by their eagerness to know more. It is difficult for us to understand the impact of the Gospels on some one who has never heard of God’s love for us. But then it is a direct message from Heaven!

BTW I didn’t refer to the Old Testament on that occasion. 🙂
I really like this post. Did hearing of the death and rising of the Lord bring about Grace?
Tell us more.
 
The issue is whether we would be able to make a sensible interpretation of the Lord without the Old Testament. The answer is that we could understand His moral teaching but we wouldn’t understand it in its theological, moral and historical context. For a start, original sin would be missing, there would be no Chosen People, the Messiah would have come out of the blue and all the New Testament references to the prophets and the Decalogue omitted!
Also – and I don’t mean to stress you with a request for too many answers – but if as we believe that Jesus is the full revelation, isn’t the background he gives us on his “references” sufficient to understand his meaning? Else one could argue above and beyond Paul with his analogy to grafting, and say that certain things, especially those things based in the laws of the OT are understandable only to Jews, and hence while we have a full revelation, theirs is even fuller.
 
I really like this post. Did hearing of the death and rising of the Lord bring about Grace? Tell us more.
I can’t recall anyone who didn’t become a Catholic. The Nigerians are naturally religious and readily abandon their tribal beliefs - for the most part - although some of their customs die hard. The men usually had several wives and when they were baptised it was very sad to see the wives - except the first one - compelled to go and live with their parents while the children stayed with their father. That was a long time ago and hopefully things have changed now. Another custom they had to give up was witchcraft which was evident in a large heap of “jujus” waiting to be burned outside a church. It seemed a pity because some of them were exquisitely carved from ebony. Traditional medicine is widespread but not always successful. A nun told me that women who had problems giving birth were brought to the mission hospital plastered with mud and most of them died from infection. Life is hard in the intense heat of Northern Nigeria with the harmattan bringing sand in the air from the Sahara leaving blood in your nostrils and then in the rainy season clouds of insects attracted to the kerosene lamp making you dodge out of the way of sausage flies buzzing around like airborne torpedoes or Hitler’s v2s! In spite of - or because of - all this the Tivs are usually smiling, cheerful and aware of God. They taught me a lot about how to live…
 
I can’t recall anyone who didn’t become a Catholic. The Nigerians are naturally religious and readily abandon their tribal beliefs - for the most part - although some of their customs die hard. The men usually had several wives and when they were baptised it was very sad to see the wives - except the first one - compelled to go and live with their parents while the children stayed with their father. That was a long time ago and hopefully things have changed now. Another custom they had to give up was witchcraft which was evident in a large heap of “jujus” waiting to be burned outside a church. It seemed a pity because some of them were exquisitely carved from ebony. Traditional medicine is widespread but not always successful. A nun told me that women who had problems giving birth were brought to the mission hospital plastered with mud and most of them died from infection. Life is hard in the intense heat of Northern Nigeria with the harmattan bringing sand in the air from the Sahara leaving blood in your nostrils and then in the rainy season clouds of insects attracted to the kerosene lamp making you dodge out of the way of sausage flies buzzing around like airborne torpedoes or Hitler’s v2s! In spite of - or because of - all this the Tivs are usually smiling, cheerful and aware of God. They taught me a lot about how to live…
They sound like a beautiful people.
 
The issue is whether we would be able to make a sensible interpretation of the Lord without the Old Testament. The answer is that we could understand His moral teaching but we wouldn’t understand it in its theological, moral and historical context. For a start, original sin would be missing, there would be no Chosen People, the Messiah would have come out of the blue and all the New Testament references to the prophets and the Decalogue omitted!
That’s what this forum is for…🙂
…but if as we believe that Jesus is the full revelation, isn’t the background he gives us on his “references” sufficient to understand his meaning? Else one could argue above and beyond Paul with his analogy to grafting, and say that certain things, especially those things based in the laws of the OT are understandable only to Jews, and hence while we have a full revelation, theirs is even fuller.
Not all of the OT is relevant to the New Covenant. Many of their laws were man-made - like animal sacrifice - and Jesus came to perfect the Law, quoting Hosea: “I want mercy not sacrifice”. Nevertheless the prophets were inspired and fulfilled a vital function in the moral and spiritual development of the Chosen People. To think otherwise is to imply that God need not have chosen them at all! But in that case why did He? :confused:
 
Not all of the OT is relevant to the New Covenant. Many of their laws were man-made - like animal sacrifice - and Jesus came to perfect the Law, quoting Hosea: “I want mercy not sacrifice”. Nevertheless the prophets were inspired and fulfilled a vital function in the moral and spiritual development of the Chosen People. To think otherwise is to imply that God need not have chosen them at all! But in that case why did He?
Even after He died, St Paul was violently opposed to the Apostles and only a miracle brought him to his senses. As it was, Our Lord survived only three years when He proclaimed the Good News, such was the magnitude of the task of converting the world to the folly of the Cross - and even now there are many people who are violently opposed to religion of any description. Yet God’s wisdom is evident in the overall success of Christianity in transforming the world to a universal belief in human rights and, astonishingly, the principle of fraternity which makes sense only in the context of a heavenly Father who has guided the human race since our ancestors appeared on this planet. It is inconceivable that He would have left us to our own devices until a mere two thousand years ago…
 
It is inconceivable that He would have left us to our own devices until a mere two thousand years ago…
It sounds like you are saying that if Jesus and the resultant NT came “out of the blue” then it wouldn’t be a revelation fully? Well, the Church does say “in the fullness of time”. So I agree in part, though I wouldn’t doubt God’s ability to do it differently.
And we are all left to our own devices without Him; but yet that is what some claim the pagans were prior to their conversion, and some, until now?
Perhaps that is why Dante took Virgil and the others to be righteous pagans, yet places them in outer hell?
 
That’s what this forum is for…🙂

Nevertheless the prophets were inspired and fulfilled a vital function in the moral and spiritual development of the Chosen People. To think otherwise is to imply that God need not have chosen them at all! But in that case why did He? :confused:
I love his answer to Martha in Luke 10:41-42. Perhaps it answers our mutual confusion about why the Chosen People and not we of pagan ancestry are called thus until his arrival.

Quote Lk 10:41-42

The Lord said to her in reply, “Martha, Martha, you are anxious and worried about many things. There is need of only one thing. Mary has chosen the better part and it will not be taken from her.”
 
It sounds like you are saying that if Jesus and the resultant NT came “out of the blue” then it wouldn’t be a revelation fully? Well, the Church does say “in the fullness of time”. So I agree in part, though I wouldn’t doubt God’s ability to do it differently.
And we are all left to our own devices without Him; but yet that is what some claim the pagans were prior to their conversion, and some, until now?
Perhaps that is why Dante took Virgil and the others to be righteous pagans, yet places them in outer hell?
God could certainly have revealed Himself differently but I think the issue is the context of the NT without the OT in this world? 😉
 
They sound like a beautiful people.
They are incredibly hospitable - like most inhabitants of harsh climates - but unfortunately I didn’t stay long enough to know them as well as the Chagga, Kikuyus and Luos in East Africa where I had time to learn Swahili, visit my neighbours in their huts and even have the privilege of going inside a Maasai boma!
 
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