Jesus Christ - Bible Study

[ralphinal]

To me, “The Word was made Flesh” is one of the key points in the Gospel. What is the Word of God? It is Jesus, first and foremost. When we see Jesus in the Eucharist, we see the Word of God. More than in the Bible, we see the Word made Flesh there before us.

The line helps set up the proper understanding of the Eucharist and its role in the life of Faith.

 

[Reformed]

Then go to “All things were made through him.” Then John 6 and the upper room that follows become something to really meditate on. It must be meditated through the spirit and not according to the flesh.

All Scripture truth is concealed until the Spirit reveals truth to us. Please pray and read the entire chapter of John 6 again, then we will continue.

 

[Reformed]

To me, “The Word was made Flesh” is one of the key points in the Gospel. What is the Word of God? It is Jesus, first and foremost. When we see Jesus in the Eucharist, we see the Word of God. More than in the Bible, we see the Word made Flesh there before us.

The line helps set up the proper understanding of the Eucharist and its role in the life of Faith.

Do you really believe that “The Word was made Flesh” is about the Eucharist and not the incarnation?

 

[jim1130]

This is good right, reasoning in the Scriptures! God the Holy Spirit must illuminate spiritual truths to our hearts and mind. Please continue to mediate on the entire John chapter 6 in regards to what Jesus said about flesh and blood.

So, the underlining theme of your desire to discuss John is to denounce the Eucharist?

John 6 is the classic Eucharistic passage which, along with Jesus’ words of consecration at the Last Supper (Matt 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20), we point to to demonstrate the Eucharist in Scripture.

We know that Jesus was speaking literally is that the apostles believed and taught that he spoke literally (see 1 Cor. 10:16, 11:29). The same is true of the Christians of the first, second, third, and fourth centuries. Their writings show them to have understood and taught that Jesus’ words in John 6 were not symbolic.

We also know that Jesus was speaking literally, not figuratively, because to the Jews of his day what did “eating someone’s flesh and drinking his blood” mean?

Here is what Justin Martyr said of the Eucharist,a nd he lived closer to the time of the Apostles than you and me:

"And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

 

[ralphinal]

Do you really believe that “The Word was made Flesh” is about the Eucharist and not the incarnation?

You are missing my point. If God can become man, why can his flesh not be perceived as bread and wine?

No, it is specifically about the incarnation. More importantly, it shows us exactly what and Who the Word of God is.

Catholics hold that the Word of God is the central point of our Faith. Protestants do as well. We just define Word of God differently.

 

[Reformed]

So, the underlining theme of your desire to discuss John is to denounce the Eucharist?

No, my underlining theme is to let God the Holy Spirit teach us as Christians as we go through the Scriptures together. Don’t you agree that “The Word became flesh” is about the incarnation and not the Eucharist?

 

[Reformed]

You are missing my point. If God can become man, why can his flesh not be perceived as bread and wine?

No, it is specifically about the incarnation. More importantly, it shows us exactly what and Who the Word of God is.

Catholics hold that the Word of God is the central point of our Faith. Protestants do as well. We just define Word of God differently.

Let’s please go through the gospel of John systematically, driven by the contents of the Scriptures we are discussing. Lord willing, we will make it to John chapter 6. But we still need to go through John chapters 1 through 5 first. . The incarnation is extremely significant for the Christian Faith.

 

[jim1130]

So, the underlining theme of your desire to discuss John is to denounce the Eucharist?

No, my underlining theme is to let God the Holy Spirit teach us as Christians as we go through the Scriptures together. Don’t you agree that “The Word became flesh” is about the incarnation and not the Eucharist?

Call me a skeptic, but what I interpret is that you want to bait people into a particular trap and then hold it against them later on during the discussion. As someone who has attended non-Catholic Bible studies in the past, I have seen this snare before and those who engage with you need to tread carefully.

 

[Ronald_E]

All Scripture truth is concealed until the Spirit reveals truth to us. Please pray and read the entire chapter of John 6 again, then we will continue.

You are talking through the eyes of man. You assume that I do not pray about this? This came to me without my asking and is a gift of Grace. This is the truth that Jesus told us, “My flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed.” This is the Truth.
When you tell me to pray about this you hold yourself superior. The Truth of the Eucharist cannot be known through a position of superiority. It can only be known through the humility of the Holy Spirit. The eyes cannot see what only the Spirit reaveals–that it somewhere in the Bible.

 

[Reformed]

You are talking through the eyes of man. You assume that I do not pray about this? This came to me without my asking and is a gift of Grace. This is the truth that Jesus told us, “My flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed.” This is the Truth.
When you tell me to pray about this you hold yourself superior. The Truth of the Eucharist cannot be known through a position of superiority. It can only be known through the humility of the Holy Spirit. The eyes cannot see what only the Spirit reaveals–that it somewhere in the Bible.

Fair enough, le’t continue the Eucharist discussion when we get to John chapter 6. We are currently on John chapter 1. Would anyone like to make additional comments about John chapter 1?

 

[Reformed]

Fair enough, le’t continue the Eucharist discussion when we get to John chapter 6. We are currently on John chapter 1. Would anyone like to make additional comments about John chapter 1?

Please provide comments on this particular chapter. Feel free to use additional scripture to support your comments.

John 1

The Word Became Flesh
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life, [1] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, [2] and his own people [3] did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”) 16 And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, [4] who is at the Father’s side, [5] he has made him known.

The Testimony of John the Baptist
19 And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?” 20 He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” 21 And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.” 22 So they said to him, “Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?” 23 He said, “I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make straight [6] the way of the Lord,’ as the prophet Isaiah said.”

24 (Now they had been sent from the Pharisees.) 25 They asked him, “Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?” 26 John answered them, “I baptize with water, but among you stands one you do not know, 27 even he who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.” 28 These things took place in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

Behold, the Lamb of God
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” 32 And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. 33 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”

Jesus Calls the First Disciples
35 The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples, 36 and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!” 37 The two disciples heard him say this, and they followed Jesus. 38 Jesus turned and saw them following and said to them, “What are you seeking?” And they said to him, “Rabbi” (which means Teacher), “where are you staying?” 39 He said to them, “Come and you will see.” So they came and saw where he was staying, and they stayed with him that day, for it was about the tenth hour. [7] 40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed Jesus [8] was Andrew, Simon Peter’s brother. 41 He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which means Christ). 42 He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter [9]).

Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael
43 The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” 44 Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” 46 Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.” 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!” 48 Nathanael said to him, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” 49 Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” 50 Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” 51 And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, [10] you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

 

[jim1130]

Then go to “All things were made through him.” Then John 6 and the upper room that follows become something to really meditate on. It must be meditated through the spirit and not according to the flesh.

All Scripture truth is concealed until the Spirit reveals truth to us. Please pray and read the entire chapter of John 6 again, then we will continue.

You are talking through the eyes of man. You assume that I do not pray about this? This came to me without my asking and is a gift of Grace. This is the truth that Jesus told us, “My flesh is food indeed and my blood is drink indeed.” This is the Truth.

When you tell me to pray about this you hold yourself superior. The Truth of the Eucharist cannot be known through a position of superiority. It can only be known through the humility of the Holy Spirit. The eyes cannot see what only the Spirit reaveals–that it somewhere in the Bible.

So, the underlining theme of your desire to discuss John is to denounce the Eucharist?

John 6 is the classic Eucharistic passage which, along with Jesus’ words of consecration at the Last Supper (Matt 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20), we point to to demonstrate the Eucharist in Scripture.

We know that Jesus was speaking literally is that the apostles believed and taught that he spoke literally (see 1 Cor. 10:16, 11:29). The same is true of the Christians of the first, second, third, and fourth centuries. Their writings show them to have understood and taught that Jesus’ words in John 6 were not symbolic.

We also know that Jesus was speaking literally, not figuratively, because to the Jews of his day what did “eating someone’s flesh and drinking his blood” mean?

Here is what Justin Martyr said of the Eucharist, and he lived closer to the time of the Apostles than you and me:

"And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

This discussion is better in the Apologetics section in “Sacred Scriptures.” I am uncertain how to recommend moving it to Apologetics-Sacred Scripture so if anyone knows how to do it then inform me.

As it stands now, this “discussion” is a baited trap. We have already seen it with Reformed’s post above that is addressed by Ronald E. Of my interpretation, the goal of Reformed is to attempt to undermine the Eucharist, replacing it with his interpretation, which is why John is selected for his Bible study (so it can be led toward John 6 with statements made previously used against Catholics). He dismissed my reference to John 6, but asked Ronald E to read John 6 with what I see as a motive toward leading Ronald E toward Reformed’s opinion, and that is what it is: An opinion.

 

[Reformed]

God the Son is eternal prior to His incarnation. All things were made through Him. In addition, Colossians tells us that Jesus holds the universe together. We also know that Jesus is ruling and reigning His creation at the right hand of the Father.

The Preeminence of Christ - Col 1
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by [6] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation [7] under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 

[Reformed]

This discussion is better in the Apologetics section in “Sacred Scriptures.” I am uncertain how to recommend moving it to Apologetics-Sacred Scripture so if anyone knows how to do it then inform me.

As it stands now, this “discussion” is a baited trap. We have already seen it with Reformed’s post above that is addressed by Ronald E. Of my interpretation, the goal of Reformed is to attempt to undermine the Eucharist, replacing it with his interpretation, which is why John is selected for his Bible study (so it can be led toward John 6 with statements made previously used against Catholics). He dismissed my reference to John 6, but asked Ronald E to read John 6 with what I see as a motive toward leading Ronald E toward Reformed’s opinion, and that is what it is: An opinion.

Just have patience my friend and walk through John chapter 1 through chapter 5 with me…please. I think we will find than we have more things in common than you realize. We agree on the dual nature of Christ, His incarnation, being co-eternal with the Father, etc. The gospel of John is such an amazing book.

 

[Mickey]

Don’t you agree that “The Word became flesh” is about the incarnation and not the Eucharist?

This Body, by the indwelling of God the Word, has been made over to divine dignity. Rightly then, do we believe that the bread consecrated by the word of God has been made over into the Body of God the Word. For that Body was, as to its potency, bread; but it has been consecrated by the lodging there of the Word, who pitched His tent in the flesh. From the same cause, therefore, by which the bread that was made over into that Body is made to change into divine strength, a similar result now takes place. As in the former case, in which the grace of the Word made holy that body the substance of which is from bread, and in a certain manner is itself bread, so in this case too, the bread, as the Apostle says, “is consecrated by God’s word and by prayer”; not through its being eaten does it advance to become the Body of the Word, but it is made over immediately into the Body by means of the word, just as was stated by the Word, “This is My Body!” …In the plan of His grace He spreads Himself to every believer by means of that Flesh, the substance of which is from wine and bread, blending Himself with the bodies of believers, so that by this union with the Immortal, man, too, may become a participant in incorruption.
ST. GREGORY OF NYSSA (c. 335 - 394 A.D.)

 

[jim1130]

Just have patience my friend and walk through John chapter 1 through chapter 5 with me…please. I think we will find than we have more things in common than you realize. We agree on the dual nature of Christ, His incarnation, being co-eternal with the Father, etc. The gospel of John is such an amazing book.

Do you believe the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ?

 

[jim1130]

This Body, by the indwelling of God the Word, has been made over to divine dignity. Rightly then, do we believe that the bread consecrated by the word of God has been made over into the Body of God the Word. For that Body was, as to its potency, bread; but it has been consecrated by the lodging there of the Word, who pitched His tent in the flesh. From the same cause, therefore, by which the bread that was made over into that Body is made to change into divine strength, a similar result now takes place. As in the former case, in which the grace of the Word made holy that body the substance of which is from bread, and in a certain manner is itself bread, so in this case too, the bread, as the Apostle says, “is consecrated by God’s word and by prayer”; not through its being eaten does it advance to become the Body of the Word, but it is made over immediately into the Body by means of the word, just as was stated by the Word, “This is My Body!” …In the plan of His grace He spreads Himself to every believer by means of that Flesh, the substance of which is from wine and bread, blending Himself with the bodies of believers, so that by this union with the Immortal, man, too, may become a participant in incorruption.
ST. GREGORY OF NYSSA (c. 335 - 394 A.D.)

To echo…

CHAP. VII.–LET US STAND ALOOF FROM SUCH HERETICS.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,(7) because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death(11) in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect,(13) that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of(15) them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion[of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved.(16) But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, Disciple of St. John the apostle and bishop of the church in Antioch wrote in his letter to the church in Smyrna

 

[Reformed]

This Body, by the indwelling of God the Word, has been made over to divine dignity. Rightly then, do we believe that the bread consecrated by the word of God has been made over into the Body of God the Word. For that Body was, as to its potency, bread; but it has been consecrated by the lodging there of the Word, who pitched His tent in the flesh. From the same cause, therefore, by which the bread that was made over into that Body is made to change into divine strength, a similar result now takes place. As in the former case, in which the grace of the Word made holy that body the substance of which is from bread, and in a certain manner is itself bread, so in this case too, the bread, as the Apostle says, “is consecrated by God’s word and by prayer”; not through its being eaten does it advance to become the Body of the Word, but it is made over immediately into the Body by means of the word, just as was stated by the Word, “This is My Body!” …In the plan of His grace He spreads Himself to every believer by means of that Flesh, the substance of which is from wine and bread, blending Himself with the bodies of believers, so that by this union with the Immortal, man, too, may become a participant in incorruption.
ST. GREGORY OF NYSSA (c. 335 - 394 A.D.)

Thank you sharing the view of Gregory of Nyssa. We are more concerned about biblical revelation as compared to views of different Christians on this thread. If we considered the views of different Christians on this issue, we will have mutually exclusive views and perspectives which nullifies the vailidity of each other’s personal views.

 

[M0nkey]

Oh boy…

 

[Reformed]

Do you believe the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ?

When we get to John chapter 6, I will share my current understanding on the subject.