Jesus Christ - Holy Spirit

[annad347]

someone suggested I should start a new thread, because my question would take another thread off topic.

so, I’m asking for help in understanding…

phil19034:

Catholic Churches typically have BOTH the Holy Spirit present & Jesus Christ Physically present…

what’s the difference, between God’s spiritual presence and God’s physical presence?

Maybe I should explain, my question had to do with this passage Matthew 18:20… it was said that only meant God’s spirit was present, His physical presence was only in the Catholic church… so I wanted to know what was the difference… are they not both God… and a physical presence of God can be found anywhere the Holy Spirit lives?

 

[Vico]

someone suggested I should start a new thread, because my question would take another thread off topic.

so, I’m asking for help in understanding…

Can Catholics use Protestant churches?

Catholic Churches typically have BOTH the Holy Spirit present & Jesus Christ Physically present…

what’s the difference, between God’s spiritual presence and God’s physical presence?

There can be common services but not Eucharistic in nature. This is because there is not full communion between all these Christians. Catholics must avoid the attitude and appearance of religious indifferentism. Also the Catholic obligation for Sundays and holy days is not fulfilled by such common services.

 

[annad347]

I didnt understand a word you said on how that explains the difference between God’s spiritual presence and God’s physical presence

 

[phil19034]

This is going to be a terrible analogy, but I’m going to use it anyway.

In this COVID-19 world, there are many people who cannot see their grandparents or some other family members.

So, they are using Apple FaceTime, Skype, Zoom, etc to see their loved ones. It’s great, better than nothing, but it’s just not the same as being in the same room. You can’t touch your loved ones via Skype or Zoom.

Being able to touch and embrace our loved ones is very important.

When Jesus is physically present, we can literally touch him with our hands or tounge. We can see Him in the form of bread and walk up close to Him.

And most importantly, we can literally eat His flesh and drink His blood. No embrace is more important than the ability partake in the Body & Blood of Jesus Christ.

When God is only spiritually present via the Holy Spirit, we cannot physically touch God and we cannot eat His flesh and drink His blood.

I pray this helps

 

[annad347]

So God is only physically present in th Eucharist? That is the only way He is physically present?

So He is never physically presents any other way?

 

[JGD]

Our One Triune God - Father, Son & Holy Spirit (3 Divine Persons) - in His Divine nature is Spirit. But the 2nd Person of the Trinity, God the Son, united Himself to a human nature (a physical body and a spiritual human soul). God the Father and the Holy Spirit are always present where God the Son is, but they are not united to Jesus’ human nature in the way the 2nd Person of the Trinity is. They (Father and Holy Spirit) remain in their Divine nature only - Spirit. Thus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are always present as Spirit only. Jesus however, after physically dying, arose in His physical body and ascended into heaven - and is united to that risen, immortal, physical body forever. He brings our human nature into the very unity of the Trinity itself!!! That is why we must be united to Christ - to His mystical Body - to spend eternity with our Triune God eternally.

Now, Jesus in the Eucharist makes not only His Divine nature (Spirit) present, but also His physical human nature. This physical presence is no longer mortal (subject to death) flesh and blood, but His risen, glorified, immortal flesh and blood as well as His human soul and His Divinity.

The Father and Son are not “physically” present in the Eucharist because they did not assume/unite to a physical human nature.

Only a validly ordained priest has the power to consecrate the bread and wine whereby that substance becomes the actual body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus, our risen Lord.

Hope this helps.

 

[JGD]

So God is only physically present in th Eucharist? That is the only way He is physically present?

So He is never physically presents any other way?

That is the only physical way He is present - normally. On rare occasions He has appeared to humans. The earliest of those occasions are recorded in Scripture when He appeared to the apostles and others before ascending into heaven. It occurred fairly often in those 40 days, but is rare since then.

In the Eucharist however we can receive Him right within us. Such a close union.
(Sometimes I recall when I was pregnant and got to experience that awesome closeness of my child right within me.)

 

[Vico]

I didnt understand a word you said on how that explains the difference between God’s spiritual presence and God’s physical presence

So when the Eucharist is confected by the priests with apostolic succession then only is the physical presence of Jesus Christ there. The Holy Spirit is present in all valid sacraments (such as Baptism) which occurs in ecclesial communities without valid apostolic succession.

Part of my previous post is directed to answer the title question “Can Catholics use Protestant churches”.

 

[annad347]

Okay so back to my original question… God is the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. They are One God, to have one is to have God… so what is the difference between having God Spiritually or God Physically when they are all God.

Why would having one be less then having the other if they are God?

@Vico, I posted that quote cause thata where my question came from… sorry for the confusion. I fixed it because that wasnt my question.

 

[Vico]

Okay so back to my original question… God is the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. They are One God, to have one is to have God… so what is the difference between having God Spiritually or God Physically when they are all God.

Why would having one be less then having the other if they are God?

@Vico, I posted that quote cause thata where my question came from… sorry for the confusion. I fixed it because that wasnt my question.

That is an interesting question. Each sacrament (seven in number) brings sanctifying grace in the properly disposed individual, but also a strengthening particular to that sacrament, called sacramental grace. This is the Holy Spirit.

1. Now, we were instructed to receive the Eucharist until the second coming of Christ, see scripture 1 Cor 11

24 And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. 25 In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. 26 For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come.

1. Reception of Holy Communion completes the Christian initiation:

• Holy Mystery of Baptism
• Holy Mystery of Chrysmation (or Confirmation)
• Holy Mystery of the Body and Blood of Christ

1. In the Our Father we pray for our daily consubstantial bread.
2. Here is a traditional prayer of St. John of Damascene:

God, my God, all consuming invisible fire, you make Your angels flaming fire.
In your inexpressible love you have condescended to give me your divine flesh.
You have allowed me to partaker of your divinity by possessing your most pure body and precious Blood.
May they permeate my entire body and spirit and all my bones.
May they burn away my sins, enlighten my soul, and brighten my understanding.
May they sanctify me, making a dwelling-place in me so that I too may be in you forever, with your blessed Father, and you all-holy Spirit, through the prayers of your most pure Mother and of all your saints. Amen

 

[kapp19]

Just so there is some clarity - the Son is not simply “the physical presence of God,” nor is the Holy Spirit “the spiritual presence of God” - they are distinct PERSONS, as is the Father. Different “Whos,” same “What.”

You can think of Them as God contemplating Himself and loving Himself (the Father), God through which God contemplates Himself (the Son, or the Word), and God through which God loves Himself (the Holy Spirit). This gets closer to it, at least.

 

[michaelcla]

I think god is not present physically anywhere. According to me God is only present in the form of positive energy and faith.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I think god is not present physically anywhere. According to me God is only present in the form of positive energy and faith.

You don’t appear to be Catholic from your profile, and your opinion is not Catholic teaching.

 

[Dovekin]

So God is only physically present in th Eucharist? That is the only way He is physically present?

So He is never physically presents any other way?

A very difficult question to answer, though @JGD makes a good start.

God is spirit, and we worship God in spirit and in truth. Jn 4:24

In Jesus, God has taken on human nature, which includes a physical component along with the spiritual, ie body and soul. When the body is present, so is the soul. By the hypostatic union, God unites with the human body and soul. Where the body of Christ and the soul of Christ exist, the divine nature is united with them. (except on Holy Saturday)

In the Eucharist, the body of Christ is united to his soul, and they are united in the divine Son. Christ is spiritually present, just as the Holy Spirit and the Father can be present, and Christ is bodily present, which the Spirit and the Father cannot be.

Is this the only physical presence of Christ? In Matthew 25 Jesus says “you fed me, you clothed me.” That might point to another time Christ is physically present.

The Church is the Body of Christ, so God is present wherever the Church is present. wherever two or more? I am not really sure of the parameters for this. God is present when the Church celebrates the sacraments. Christ is present by his union with us, his body. But God never ceases to have a divine nature which is spiritual.

 

[annad347]

@Tis_Bearself, you came… yea… welcome.

The Father and Son are not “physically” present in the Eucharist because they did not assume/unite to a physical human nature.

you mean the Holy Spirit… The Father and The Holy Spirit are not physically present? (confused)

OKAY… still, is having one not mean you have God?

I understand the Eucharist.
I understand the importance of the Eucharist becoming the body and blood of Christ.
I even understand Catholic’s understanding from becoming is different from being present.

But what I still don’t understand is difference between the Holy Spirit and Jesus being Physical if they are all God.

What I don’t understand is

Different “Whos,” same “What.”

Is one Who more powerful/important/significant then the other when they are the same What?

Are the not all God?

Meaning if I have God, (The Father), God (The Son), God (The Holy Spirit) I still have, in the presence of God… physically or spiritually. Is one distinct person more powerful then the other? Are they not One?

off topic
why can’t I edit my original post?

 

[Veritas6]

you mean the Holy Spirit… The Father and The Holy Spirit are not physically present?

The Father and the Spirit are not physically present in the Eucharist, but Jesus is, and is still God. The Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

But what I still don’t understand is difference between the Holy Spirit and Jesus being Physical if they are all God.

Jesus is God incarnate; our only physical manifestation of who God is. The Holy Spirit is fully God in spirit, and is our Mediator here on earth. The Person of Jesus is not who the Person of the Holy Spirit is, but they both are God.

Is one Who more powerful/important/significant then the other when they are the same What?

No Person of the Trinity is more powerful than the other, but each has a specific “role” in a sense. Jesus came to earth, taking on a human form alongside His divine form. He was in direct contact with God the Father (and vice versa), and God the Holy Spirit was His Advocate.

From Jason Evert: “All persons are beings, but not all beings are persons. For example, you are one being and one person. But a dog is one being and zero persons. With regard to the Trinity, there is one being, which is God, yet there are there Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”

why can’t I edit my original post?

After a few hours the OP locks and you’re unable to edit your post or the title.

 

[JGD]

JGD:

The Father and Son are not “physically” present in the Eucharist because they did not assume/unite to a physical human nature.

you mean the Holy Spirit… The Father and The Holy Spirit are not physically present? (confused)

Sorry about the mistake; yes, I meant the Holy Spirit. Thanks for getting it corrected.

But what I still don’t understand is difference between the Holy Spirit and Jesus being Physical if they are all God.

The one single Godhead consists of three distinct Persons. They remain distinct - they’re never sort of all meshed together into a single Person. Sometimes I think there’s a tendency in us humans as we ponder “God” to almost think of Him as a single Person, as though the three Divine Persons can’t do things as individual Persons. The Catechism, #254 states the truth beautifully,
"God is one but not solitary."

A physical body is needed if there is to be a physical presence. Since the Father and Holy Spirit never united themselves to physical human nature they could not be physically present.

Consider that when Jesus was alive here on earth, it was only the 2nd Person who was united to His human nature even though He continued to be united to the Father and Holy Spirit in His Divine nature. Thus all 3 Divine Persons were present wherever Jesus was but not all in the same way - only Jesus was physically present.

In the same way in the Eucharist, it is only Jesus, the 2nd Person of the Trinity who makes Himself physically present even though He continues to be united to the Father and Holy Spirit in His Divine nature.

Just as there was something special about the physical presence of Jesus for the apostles and others who got to see and touch Him, so there is something special about His physical presence in the Eucharistic Host that we can physically see, touch and consume.

 

[annad347]

Just as there was something special about the physical presence of Jesus for the apostles and others who got to see and touch Him, so there is something special about His physical presence in the Eucharistic Host that we can physically see, touch and consume.

totally understandable… sometimes it can bring tears to your eyes.

So just having the Holy Spirit present not as special as having both the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ, physically and spiritually present?

even though when just the Holy Spirit is present you have God fully present?

 

[JGD]

JGD:

Just as there was something special about the physical presence of Jesus for the apostles and others who got to see and touch Him, so there is something special about His physical presence in the Eucharistic Host that we can physically see, touch and consume.

totally understandable… sometimes it can bring tears to your eyes.

So just having the Holy Spirit present not as special as having both the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ, physically and spiritually present?

even though when just the Holy Spirit is present you have God fully present?

I’m don’t know exactly what you mean when you say “when just the Holy Spirit is present you have God fully present” if by “God fully present” you mean the full One Triune God without the Father & Son, I don’t think that would be correct. I’ll give a quote from the Catechism. If what you means conforms to all the statements in this paragraph, then your thinking concerning it would be okay. You’ll have to be the judge since only you know for sure what you’re trying to express.

CCC 253 the Trinity is One . We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."

With the human nature each human person constitutes a fully human being, thus if you have 3 fully human persons you have 3 fully human beings.
But with the Divine nature when you have 3 fully Divine Persons you have only one Divine Being.

Altho we know it’s true, we’re incapable of fully understanding how this can be. But don’t worry, we’re in good company - St. Augustine couldn’t comprehend it either! It is one of the mysteries of our Christian faith. We can’t even really fathom what it would be like to be pure spirits - no physical body (how do spirits communicate, express love, move, …).

It would be good to read that whole section in the Catechism on the Trinity. Again, keeping in mind it is a mystery we cannot fully comprehend.

 

[Wesrock]

I didnt understand a word you said on how that explains the difference between God’s spiritual presence and God’s physical presence

When Jesus walked on Earth, was God present in a different way than before?