Jesus Christ - Holy Spirit

[kapp19]

If any Person of the Trinity is present, all are present in a way, though a particular Person might be acting more “directly” as it were.

There is absolutely NO hierarchy among the Persons. They are perfectly equal in power, goodness, authority, etc. - though some actions are “proper” to certain Persons… but again, there is no inequality among them. That’s a heresy called “subordinationism.”

The “physical presence” of God is real in the Flesh and Blood of Jesus of Nazareth. Insofar as Jesus is really present, God is physically present. The Eucharist is Jesus - albeit without a normal part of what physical presence is (called the “primary dimensive quantity” - viz., “shape”)… Because this is an abnormal way of being physically present, we do not usually say that Jesus is “physically present” in the Eucharist, but that He is really or substantially present. But His Flesh and Blood (and Soul and Divinity) are there - they are there only with the secondary dimensive quantity (“extension”).

I recommend reading the relevant sections of the Catechism on this, as the questions you are asking are, while good, best addressed by a fuller presentation of the topic.

-K

 

[knightfall]

Hi Anna

What an interesting topic. Thank you for opening this discussion.

So just having the Holy Spirit present not as special as having both the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ, physically and spiritually present?

I don’t know the answer to this. But what I do know is that Jesus tells us that physically consuming His Body and Blood is necessary (“… unless you eat my body and drink my blood” … John 6).

As Catholics, we understand that we comply with His command by participating in and consuming the Holy Eucharist. Which I’m guessing is what prompted your line of thought in the first place. Whilst all three persons of the Trinity may be present to us in different ways and times, Jesus commanded that we accept Him into ourselves physically as well. Is it a form of preparation (you are what you eat), a form of manna in our Exodus from sin? I don’t know although I hope to find out in the next life.

I guess my only answer to your question then is, “ Because He said so”. It made a whole lot more sense in my head when I started typing a response.

Thank you for promoting the conversation.

God bless.

 

[JGD]

Something else I thought of Anna. In us humans, our soul/spirit can only be present to others where our physical body is present - our soul is sort of bound in presence and activity to where the body is.

When we think of something being “one”, our minds/imagination just sort of instinctively apply physical qualities/limits - eg. limits of time, place, space, shape, activity. We tend to picture what it would “look” and “be” like if 2 human persons were united in such a way that they were only one human “being”. Automatically, we picture both persons limited to being present in the same shape and space occupied by the physical body of the one human being, both physically “doing” only and exactly the same activity at the same time, … But the 3 Divine Persons are not a combination of spirit and physical body, they are pure Spirit. None of those physical limitations apply. When it comes down to it, we are completely unable to “imagine” how 3 pure spirits can still remain 3 completely distinct spirits from each other yet be One divine being - One God.

For me, I have to discard attempts at trying to imagine or picture the reality. I know there is only One God, one Divine Being and the very definition of His Divine Nature is that it consists of 3 Divine Persons.

It’s a little comparable to the way I know that I am a single human being and the definition of my human nature is that it consists of 2 very distinct parts - a material human body and an immaterial human soul, yet one being.
(Although it does help to comprehend my human nature because at least I can “picture” one of the distinct parts, the physical body. )

 

[JGD]

The “physical presence” of God is real in the Flesh and Blood of Jesus of Nazareth. Insofar as Jesus is really present, God is physically present. The Eucharist is Jesus - albeit without a normal part of what physical presence is (called the “primary dimensive quantity” - viz., “shape”)… Because this is an abnormal way of being physically present, we do not usually say that Jesus is “physically present” in the Eucharist, but that He is really or substantially present. But His Flesh and Blood (and Soul and Divinity) are there - they are there only with the secondary dimensive quantity (“extension”).

-K

It’s so important to get the proper understanding of the word “substance” - it’s philosophical meaning - to understand what it means in the theological definitions of our truths. Especially when it comes to the Eucharist and understanding “transubstantiation”. I had to do some digging and studying for that to happen - and altho I now grasp its meaning, I don’t know how to give a simple, correct definition that would be easy for a person to understand who has never done any digging into philosophy. Could you possibly provide such a definition.

Thank heavens I was determined to understand St. Thomas’ Summa – at least to some degree. Quite a few words in there whose meaning go beyond that of their normal usage.

 

[kapp19]

Substance: that which is not predicated of another.

It’s a “thing in itself” - it does not “inhere” in something else. It is not “parasitic” in being… as opposed to “accidents,” which are only predicated of another (viz., of a substance), like position, quality, quantity, etc.

 

[annad347]

I’m not the one separating the 3 person’s of God into 3 separate persons, its you guys who are doing that… I know when I have…

God the Father, I have GOD
God the Son, I have GOD
God the Holy Spirit, I have GOD
physically or spiritually I have GOD.

I asked the question because I was wondering why have the physical presence of God be more special then the spiritual presence of God, when having God present in any form is special.

and yes Jesus Christ is the physical form of God, but God can take any form He chooses, to say He can’t doesn’t that limit God? You can feel Him, see Him, hear Him, smell Him, taste Him in many ways, to say you can’t limit God. God has no limits.

God is everywhere, whether it be in the physical form or spiritual form you have God!

I understand the importance of the Eucharist being the physical form of Jesus Christ. I understand that we have the spiritual form within us through the Holy Spirit… but in all ways we have God.

 

[JGD]

I’m not the one separating the 3 person’s of God into 3 separate persons, its you guys who are doing that… I know when I have…

God the Father, I have GOD
God the Son, I have GOD
God the Holy Spirit, I have GOD
physically or spiritually I have GOD.

We separate the Persons because there are 3 Persons. Together, they are one God. God is 3 Persons - that IS what constitutes the Divine nature.

I asked the question because I was wondering why have the physical presence of God be more special then the spiritual presence of God, when having God present in any form is special.
…
I understand the importance of the Eucharist being the physical form of Jesus Christ. I understand that we have the spiritual form within us through the Holy Spirit… but in all ways we have God.

Yes, we always have God – in spiritual form. But in the Eucharist which Jesus instituted for us, we receive the Son not only as Spirit (along with the Father and Holy Spirit) but also physically - His risen physical human body. This addition to the spiritual form makes it different - special - from spiritual only.

He chose to use physical elements we can detect through our human senses and so we can truly know and experience His entry into our very being from the moment we receive the host on our tongue. Jesus desired to come to us in this way - with His human nature as well as His Divine nature. It is special because it is a special gift He wants us to receive from Him while we are here on earth. There are special sacramental graces we receive with this Sacrament that we do not receive with a spiritual communion or in the other Sacraments.
(Each Sacrament has its own special sacramental grace/s).

 

[knightfall]

Hi Anna,

and yes Jesus Christ is the physical form of God, but God can take any form He chooses, to say He can’t doesn’t that limit God? You can feel Him, see Him, hear Him, smell Him, taste Him in many ways, to say you can’t limit God. God has no limits.

You’re right. God has no limits, other than those He has chosen to impose on Himself, such as respecting our free will.

Is it possible that God the Father or the Holy Spirit have at some point assumed physical form? Perhaps. But that has not been revealed to us. What has been revealed to us is that the second Person of the Trinity did assume human form. We experience him physically … His disciples experienced him physically during His public ministry and we experience Him physically in the Eucharist. We are in fact told that unless we experience Him physically, we can have no life within us.

So whilst I may not know all the answers, and whilst I acknowledge and worship God in spirit, I also acknowledge that He has asked us to experience Him physically as well, in memory of Him.

God is everywhere, whether it be in the physical form or spiritual form you have God!

This got me thinking of the significance of the Incarnation. That, as part of His plan for our salvation, God chose to empty Himself and assume human form. Could He have saved us without the Incarnation? Like you’ve said, He has no limits. Yet He chose to become one of us. We are redeemed through both the spiritual and the physical.

I asked the question because I was wondering why have the physical presence of God be more special then the spiritual presence of God, when having God present in any form is special.

I agree that having God present in any form is special. And I can’t really say quantitively if a physical or spiritual presence is more special. What I will say however is that I wouldn’t dismiss one over the other. I wouldn’t reject His physical presence because I had God’s spiritual presence, especially since Jesus taught that consuming Him physically was necessary. Why must it be an either/or scenario?

Thank you for helping to develop my thoughts on this. God bless.

 

[annad347]

I wouldn’t reject His physical presence because I had God’s spiritual presence, especially since Jesus taught that consuming Him physically was necessary.

Does it sound like I’m rejecting His physical presence? That is not what I’m trying to do, I would never reject God… at least not on purpose.

God help me if I ever do.

Why must it be an either/or scenario?

That was my question… if all are God, 100% God, to have one, to have two is to have God. Why must it be an either/or scenario, other then in the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

Then there’s the question is the Eucharist the only way to way to have the physical presence of God… didn’t He walk with Adam, so He presented Himself in a physical form before… didn’t He? (I hear someone shouting I knew she was going to say that… lol)

 

[kapp19]

I think you might be trying to use a hammer when you actually need a scalpel… You have good questions but the answers require some subtle distinctions - like presence vs. operation, primary dimensive quantity vs. secondary dimensive quantity, the Person of the Son vs. the Son in His Incarnation, “normal theophany” vs. Incarnation…

Again, I’d say the Catechism would be good to read through - on the Trinity, on the Incarnation, and on the Eucharist.

 

[annad347]

Again, I’d say the Catechism would be good to read through - on the Trinity, on the Incarnation, and on the Eucharist.

Doesn’t it explain why having the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) or the Physical body of God (Jesus) means you have more or less of God present when all are equal parts of our One God (Trinity).

God is God.

 

[pohandes]

So God is only physically present in th Eucharist? That is the only way He is physically present?

So He is never physically presents any other way?

And the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

Luke 3:22

 

[pohandes]

And most importantly, we can literally eat His flesh and drink His blood. No embrace is more important than the ability partake in the Body & Blood of Jesus Christ.

When God is only spiritually present via the Holy Spirit, we cannot physically touch God and we cannot eat His flesh and drink His blood.

It seems inconsistent. More clear please.

They (Father and Holy Spirit) remain in their Divine nature only- Spirit. Thus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are always present as Spirit only

Not true. Read Luke 3:22

“Can Catholics use Protestant churches”.

They can’t?!

Why would having one be less then having the other if they are God?

I think it is because of us. We have better relation with tangible things.

Holy Mystery of Chrysmation (or Confirmation)

Chrismation

I think god is not present physically anywhere. According to me God is only present in the form of positive energy and faith.

Do you believe that Jesus is God? If yes, You must accept that God was present physically .

In Jesus, God has taken on human nature

What does “has taken on human nature” exactly mean?

 

[Vico]

John 1

18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the Bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

 

[pohandes]

John 1

18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the Bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

In old testament, several time, people seen god!

 

[kapp19]

No, They are not equal parts of God, as God has no parts.

I appreciate your difficulties and recommend the same reading.

-K

 

[Vico]

Vico:

John 1

18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the Bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

In old testament, several time, people seen god!

Name one time. Exodus 33:20

20 And again he said: Thou canst not see my face: for man shall not see me, and live.

 

[pohandes]

Name one time. Exodus 33:20

20 And again he said: Thou canst not see my face: for man shall not see me, and live.

Name on time?! I don’t understand.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Name one time. Exodus 33:20

20 And again he said: Thou canst not see my face: for man shall not see me, and live.

Name on time?! I don’t understand.

Identify the Old Testament scripture that states that God was seen? (One time = one example.)

 

[pohandes]

(One time = one example.)

lol Today is not my day

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”
He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
The man said, “The woman you put here with me–she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

Genesis 3:8-13

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