Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[SHW]

You talk as if sinlessness is a matter of degrees. The bible says Romans 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Everyone is a sinner. By the way this includes Mary. Romans 8:3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Holiness is a matter of degree. In Romans 3:23, Paul is quoting Old Testament Psalms and Ecclesiastes. Neither Jesus nor Mary were born yet when these OT Books were written. I think that Protestants all agree that Jesus never sinned, so the word “all” does not pertain to Him.

I should have said that the more righteous a person is, the more sanctifying grace this person possesses. SORRY! If you are sinless, you have no sin on your soul. As soon as a person is baptized, he is sanctified (made holy) and is sinless (without sin) and remains so until he sins.

What is supernatural life and what is a supernaturally good action? Hypothetically I suppose this is true, but Romans 3:23 makes the point moot.

Romans 3:23 is speaking of Original Sin. Romans 5:12, 14-16 “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—…14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.”

Jesus was born without Original Sin and so was His Mother Mary. Jesus could not have been conceived in a womb tainted by Original Sin. Mary would have been killed instead just as Uzza was killed by God when he reached out to prevent the Ark of the Old Covenant from falling when the oxen stumbled. [1 Chronicles 13:7-13] Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant because Jesus resided there after His conception.

members.cox.net/studyhisword/ArkNewCovenant.pdf

The righteousness talked about here is the righteousness we take on through faith in Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Noah was righteous, Abraham was righteous, Zechariah was righteous, etc. This is in regards to their own personal actions which they did by cooperating with the graces that God gave them. Jesus had not been born yet so there was no faith in Jesus to give them their righteousness.

Mary didn’t give us Jesus. God did. Mary was just the vehicle by which He entered the world, but then so were all His ancesters up to and including Adam. She is a conduit for God’s grace only in so far as she she was His mother. She has nothing to do with the dispensation of God’s grace. John3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Mary was not just the vehicle by which Jesus entered the world. Mary was predestined to be and is now a member of the Heavenly Court along with God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. She is our heavenly Mother. Jesus wants us to honor His mother because she is His mother. We worship His heavenly Father and we honor His heavenly Mother. In the Davidic line of kings, mothers of kings are always addressed as Queen. Jesus is a King in the line of David. Mary is a Queen in the line of David because her Son Jesus is King.

 

[deepa2000]

As I suspected, context is everything. Paul is saying that only Christ is able to mediate strictly speaking between man and God; but Mary is a mediatrix of grace insofar as she is 1) the mother of God, from whom all grace flows, and 2) she is the most perfect intercessor, because she was saved from original sin and is yet still fully human. Again, she is not God and thus hasn’t authority in herself to mediate grace, but through her grace is mediated.​

Brustverkleinerung
Risks of Bariatric Surgery

 

[Thorwald]

I suggest you read the five tomes of St. Cyril of Alexandria against Nestorius. Nestorius refused to call Mary Theotokos or mother of God because ultimately he did not believe in a unity of the natures of Christ. Nestorius was willing to call Mary the mother of Christ our God but not mother of God. He continually seperates the words of the Gospels so that some of them refer to ‘Christ the man’ and others refer to the Word of God. Cyril argued that God the Word became man and made the flesh His own even to the point that it is said that God suffered, was crucified and ultimately God died (in His humanity). All the words of the Gospels are applied to God the Word who became man. There is an absolute unity of Christ. Nestorius accuses Cyril of introducing passibility into the divine nature but Cyril continually denies this.

I would also refer you to the words of Elizabeth to Mary in Luke1 where she calls her ‘mother of my Lord’. You have three options here. First you could deny the divinity of Christ which I am sure you do not do. Second you could speak as Nestorius did in terms of divisions and say that Lord applies to the humanity and not to the divinity. This is ultimately problematic because you are denying the hypostatic union and Christ becomes simply a God-inspired man. Or you can speak as Cyril and the Catholic tradition along with the Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans and the Lutherans as Jon showed and speak of the unity of Christ and admit that she is the mother of God/Theotokos.

Jesus, Himself says that He is looking forward to returning to the glory that He had, before the world was. This I assume, is His position, along with His Father, as “GOD”. Jesus, even though begotten as Lord of Hosts, had a job to do. He had to become the redemption ‘vehicle’ for mankind. In order to do this, He had to take on a ‘human’ form (below the angels). Jesus had to prove to all of mankind, that it is possible to live a righteous life, without sin, as a human being. He had to face all of the temptations that we face, and remain ‘pure’. He is the only ‘human figure’ that has ever been able to do this. Mary provided the ‘human mother’ requirement for Jesus’ human birth (ie. Son of Man). All of the sins of the world since the time of Adam & Eve, still flowed in Mary’s body. Jesus had to overcome these sins, which were now passed on to Him. As Christ, Jesus still retained His ‘Son of God’ status (ie. part of “GOD”), but Mary did not ‘add to’ or ‘take from’, Jesus’ original status of being part of “GOD”.

 

[Eleve]

Mothers do not give birth to natures alone, but to persons who possess a nature. Mary gave birth to the complete person. Now, is Jesus Christ a divine person, or is he a human person?
He could not be both, as that would make Him to be two persons.

Jesus is both divine and human, though he is one person. See the Council of Chalcedon.

 

[thirdn6]

Thanks. As I suspected, context is everything. Paul is saying that only Christ is able to mediate strictly speaking between man and God; but Mary is a mediatrix of grace insofar as she is 1) the mother of God, from whom all grace flows, and 2) she is the most perfect intercessor, because she was saved from original sin and is yet still fully human. Again, she is not God and thus hasn’t authority in herself to mediate grace, but through her grace is mediated.

For notes on Mary as the mediatrix see especially Redemptoris Mater JPII

This is a tradition of the Church, but it is not yet dogma; although a petition has been sent to the Holy Father for this reason.

We know…

There was only one sacrifice…
There is only one Lamb of God…
There is only one mediator between God and man…
The only begotten Son of God - the man Jesus Christ.

We know (as Catholics)…

Mary…
as Mother of God … Queen of heavens…Queen of angels… Queen of peace…
Madonna… Mother of Perpetual Help…our Lady…

But…

“Mediatrix” …???:doh2:
When was it first came up? Who did coin the word?
Might have been the 1,000,001th English word, eh…?
Sure like sounded good to others … BUT PLEASE…
IMO, The word only brings confusion and divisiveness among the faithful!!!

AHHH! I’m just glad it has no equivalent word in my native language!

Holy Mother… pray for us…!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The subject of Mary, Jesus and the Father are all made one through the Holy Spirit;

We are dealing with two aspects of our humanity here; Jesus is our True Mediator and advocate between our humanity and Abba Father;

Mary becomes co-mediatrix in the Holy Spirit, when she brings us (“Emmanuel” God is with us) Jesus to our humanity. From our humanity Jesus mediates for our sins to God.

Mary has brought her son to the Eastern World by giving birth to him, in cooperation with the will of God.

Mary has brought her son to the Western World, by revealing herself as One who is mother (theotokos) of the divine child.

The two aspects involved here deals with the outer physical revelation of Jesus from which Mary participates in, by her obedience to the Angel’s message of God’s will, by co-mediation bringing her son (Emmanuel) to our humanity in time. Mary from her humanity co-mediates by presenting her son to God in the temple for our behalf, fulfilling the prescriptions of Law.

Jesus mediates for our humanity and our Soul who sits at the right hand of God from eternity to the Father.

In summary; Mary co-mediates with the Holy Spirit for us by bringing her son to us, when we ask her. Jesus is our one mediator for our soul and humanity who advocates on our behalf to almighty God the Father. This family relationship between Mother, Son and Father is revealed by Love in the Holy Spirit. We are the offspring from this humanly divine family. Where we have a Mother who prays to the Father that she may give birth to her offspring through Jesus. Jesus is our brother who mediates on our Mothers behalf, when she tells us to “Do whatever he tells you” to the Father, who grants Mary’s request and gives us the best tasting wine in the New Covenant. A family of Love, for God is Love; who is all and in all…

 

[dyluck]

Blessed Virgin Mary.

Well there indeed comes the perception of esteeming man. And man should not be esteemed… Only God is worthy of esteem. Isaiah 2:22

Mary was chosen by God, favored for no reason of her own but reasons God institued completely out of his own Will. Mary deserved hell just as much as every single person on this earth. It was only though the merit of Christ that even Mary could be reconciled unto God.

The point protestants kick against is that we are treading on potental idolatry by putting such a high place a man or men (being it Mary in this case).
The fact you pray to Mary as a intercessor on your behalf is sign enough that it is dangerous.

 

[Eleve]

:hypno: Where do I begin?

Let’s start with Scripture. Luke 1:48 says that all ages will call Mary blessed. So, your objection to that particular title is anti-Scriptural.

Isaiah 2:22 does not say that men and women cannot be worthy of esteem. Your interpretation is overly broad.

Mary was chosen by God, favored for no reason of her own but reasons God institued completely out of his own Will. … It was only though the merit of Christ that even Mary could be reconciled unto God.

As far as I know, this is not contrary to Roman Catholic Mariology.

Mary deserved hell just as much as every single person on this earth.

This, however, is. You should know by now that the Church teaches that Mary was protected from original sin from the moment of her Conception. You can’t just assert the contrary without some sort of argument.

The point protestants kick against is that we are treading on potental idolatry by putting such a high place a man or men (being it Mary in this case).

Catholics don’t put Mary in a high place; God does. Luke 1:30: “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.” Catholics are only paying Mary the proper respect ordained by God and affirmed in Scriptures like Luke 1:48.

The fact you pray to Mary as a intercessor on your behalf is sign enough that it is dangerous.

You have never asked anyone else to pray for you?

 

[JonNC]

The fact you pray to Mary as a intercessor on your behalf is sign enough that it is dangerous.

This morning people asked me to pray intercessory prayers for loved ones in need. Is this dangerous too?
When Catholics and Orthodox pray (in this snese ask for ernestly) Mary and the saints to pray for a loved one, are they doing anything different (except to a member of the Church Triumphant)?

Jon

 

[dyluck]

Mary becomes co-mediatrix in the Holy Spirit, when she brings us (“Emmanuel” God is with us) Jesus to our humanity. From our humanity Jesus mediates for our sins to God.

Mary has brought her son to the Eastern World by giving birth to him, in cooperation with the will of God.
…
Mary has brought her son to the Western World, by revealing herself as One who is mother (theotokos) of the divine child.
…
Mary co-mediates with the Holy Spirit for us by bringing her son to us, when we ask her. Jesus is our one mediator for our soul and humanity who advocates on our behalf to almighty God the Father. This family relationship between Mother, Son and Father is revealed by Love in the Holy Spirit. We are the offspring from this humanly divine family. Where we have a Mother who prays to the Father that she may give birth to her offspring through Jesus. Jesus is our brother who mediates on our Mothers behalf, when she tells us to “Do whatever he tells you” to the Father, who grants Mary’s request and gives us the best tasting wine in the New Covenant. A family of Love, for God is Love; who is all and in all…

Gabriel, not one shred of that doctrine is biblical. No one shred.

Mary was chosen by God. Mary would bore the Son of Man, but that is where it ENDS. Understand that Jesus is the Son of God but also the Son of Man. My goodness brother. Look as what we have done. Not only does God need help, but it has to be by a women who birthed a baby… Women birth babies all the time. Jesus was 100% man and that 100% man part required man in birth. The rest is done by the holy spirit being it that he is 100% God.
Understand, Mary is a finite creature. Jesus is an infinite God. Do not place Mary in the same aspect of the communion of the Godhead. A mediator for the holy spirit. The holy spirit does not need a chosen birth mother to mediate on His behalf. Mary has nothing more to do with the holy spirit as you and I. God chose you to do his work as he chose Mary and every one else. Stop esteeming man and esteem the only one who is worth of esteem.

 

[Christalone]

Grace doesn’t arise from Mary … it only passes thru her. She is a chosen vessel of Christ, to serve him and his elect.

All grace is from the domain of Christ …

So you are making the claim that she is your mediator. Enough said.

 

[Christalone]

Was Jesus God, Was Mary the Mother of God, so if Jesus is God and Mary is the Mother of God then Jesus is the Mother of God.GOD IS THE MOTHER OF JESUS WHO IS GOD.

Mary is most definitely not the mother of God. There was no one before God. As you always ask, please provide book, chapter and verse!

 

[dyluck]

This morning people asked me to pray intercessory prayers for loved ones in need. Is this dangerous too?
When Catholics and Orthodox pray (in this snese ask for ernestly) Mary and the saints to pray for a loved one, are they doing anything different (except to a member of the Church Triumphant)?

Jon

Jon, this is the one and only argument everyone alwasy brings up.

Nothing is wrong with prayer requests… in the case of Mary however, she is no longer on earth, breathing, touchable and huggable… I can’t walk up to Mary and say “Mary, please pray for me today”. She is with God doing only God knows what… To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord yes. Gathering in His presents where God chose her to be in the end, that is another story. All we can really do is speculate. I just want to bring up a point here… I am not sure if Jesus ever said to her that she will be in heaven. Did you ever think about that? How do you know what Mary, or any of the “saints” we so highly esteem, did when the doors were shut an nobody else was looking? How do we know what you do when the door shut. Are you truely Christian?.. Judgement day is indeed when salvation truely comes into fruition, when God has the final say.
Now you going to pray to her to pray for you. This is what I am talking about in the other forum there… Prayer, weather or not you chose to believe, is a form of Worship and requires speaking to a dead person if it is directed at anyone other then God. Jesus is the only Man whom is God that is indeed resurected and alive both in body and spirit. It is the EXACT same as going to a graveyard and speaking to that dead person… its biblically wrong.

 

[jimmy]

Jesus, Himself says that He is looking forward to returning to the glory that He had, before the world was. This I assume, is His position, along with His Father, as “GOD”. Jesus, even though begotten as Lord of Hosts, had a job to do. He had to become the redemption ‘vehicle’ for mankind. In order to do this, He had to take on a ‘human’ form (below the angels). Jesus had to prove to all of mankind, that it is possible to live a righteous life, without sin, as a human being. He had to face all of the temptations that we face, and remain ‘pure’. He is the only ‘human figure’ that has ever been able to do this. Mary provided the ‘human mother’ requirement for Jesus’ human birth (ie. Son of Man). All of the sins of the world since the time of Adam & Eve, still flowed in Mary’s body. Jesus had to overcome these sins, which were now passed on to Him. As Christ, Jesus still retained His ‘Son of God’ status (ie. part of “GOD”), but Mary did not ‘add to’ or ‘take from’, Jesus’ original status of being part of “GOD”.

We agree that Mary did not affect Jesus’ nature as God but we believe that Jesus underwent a second birth as man from Mary. Before time He was begotten from the Father and so He is eternal God, but in the fulness of time He was born from Mary and was made man for the sake of our salvation. He took on the fulness of our humanity as His own. It is an amazing paradox that the eternal was made to be temporal. The Immortal was made mortal, the strong one was made weak. He took our nature so that He could bestow upon us His sonship through His Grace and Spirit. As He says, we shall have the power to become children of God. And so He was conceived as a man and born of a woman.

Remember that Jesus is a divine person, not merely a human person as we are. He is the second person of the Trinity who became man. So when He took upon Himself our humanity through Mary He made Mary the mother of God. The flesh He took upon Himself became the humanity of the Son of God. So in as much as God became man, Mary was made to be the mother of God.

 

[Eleve]

Gabriel, not one shred of that doctrine is biblical. No one shred.

Are you seriously trying to invoke sola scriptura as an argument against Catholic doctrine?

Nothing is wrong with prayer requests… in the case of Mary however, she is no longer on earth, breathing, touchable and huggable… I can’t walk up to Mary and say “Mary, please pray for me today”.

Do you believe in the Communion of Saints, or do you reject the Apostles’ Creed as un-Biblical?

I just want to bring up a point here… I am not sure if Jesus ever said to her that she will be in heaven. Did you ever think about that? How do you know what Mary, or any of the “saints” we so highly esteem, did when the doors were shut an nobody else was looking?

The reasons for the Catholic belief in the salvation of Mary specifically are considered in, among other places, Munificentissimus Deus.

Prayer, weather or not you chose to believe, is a form of Worship

I suppose I might as well say it — this statement is not Biblical.

 

[Christalone]

Are you seriously trying to invoke sola scriptura as an argument against Catholic doctrine?

I’ll take scripture over anybody’s doctrine any day. Maybe you should do the same. The light shines brighter with the truth the way and the light.

 

[JonNC]

Jon, this is the one and only argument everyone alwasy brings up.

Nothing is wrong with prayer requests… in the case of Mary however, she is no longer on earth, breathing, touchable and huggable… I can’t walk up to Mary and say “Mary, please pray for me today”. She is with God doing only God knows what… To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord yes. Gathering in His presents where God chose her to be in the end, that is another story. All we can really do is speculate. I just want to bring up a point here… I am not sure if Jesus ever said to her that she will be in heaven. Did you ever think about that? How do you know what Mary, or any of the “saints” we so highly esteem, did when the doors were shut an nobody else was looking? How do we know what you do when the door shut. Are you truely Christian?.. Judgement day is indeed when salvation truely comes into fruition, when God has the final say.
Now you going to pray to her to pray for you. This is what I am talking about in the other forum there… Prayer, weather or not you chose to believe, is a form of Worship and requires speaking to a dead person if it is directed at anyone other then God. Jesus is the only Man whom is God that is indeed resurected and alive both in body and spirit. It is the EXACT same as going to a graveyard and speaking to that dead person… its biblically wrong.

My point is to separate two things.

1. Intercessory prayer. My previous post was to demonstrate that Catholics and Orthodox do not “pray”, as prayer to God. They are making prayer requests.
2. The issue of prayer to those in the Church Triumphant is a different matter. Scripture is clear that they pray for us the Church Militant in a general way. The only question is whether or not they can hear our personal requests for intercession.

I am not convinced they can, but I can point to scripture that causes me to consider the possibility, as well as the fact that the practice predates the schism by hundreds of years.

Jon

It is the EXACT same as going to a graveyard and speaking to that dead person… its biblically wrong.

BTW, Jesus did exactly this.

 

[jimmy]

Mary is most definitely not the mother of God. There was no one before God. As you always ask, please provide book, chapter and verse!

Then Jesus was most definitely not God. Read my posts above. Read Luke1. Elizabeth calls Mary the ‘mother of my Lord’. Either her Lord is not God or Mary is the mother of God.

Read Cyril of Alexandria’s On the Unity of Christ which was written in about 438. It covers all these questions. It is written in the form of a dialogue and it concerns the Nestorian heresy which divided Christ into two natures and denied the hypostatic union. Here is a short excerpt from it:

B. The serpent so recently appeared is that crooked one whose tongue is drunk on venom. Not only does he not welcome the tradition of all the initiates throughout the world (or rather that of all the God-inspired scriptures), but he even innovates as seems fit to him, and denies that the holy virgin is the Mother of God, and calls her Christ-Mother instead, or Mother-of-the-Man, not to mention the other shocking and absurd ideas he introduces to the orthodox and pure teachings of the catholic Church.
A. You speak of Nestorius, I think. I am already somewhat familiar with his thought but as to its precise nature, my friend, I am not so sure. How can he say that the holy virgin is not the Mother of God?
B. He maintains it is because she has not given birth to God, since the Word was before her, or rather is before every age and time being coeternal with God the Father.
A. In that case it is clear that they must also deny that Emmanuel is God; and so it would seem that the evangelist interpreted the term pointless when he said, “And being translated this means God-with-us” (Mt 1:23; Is 7:14). And yet, because he is God made man, this is exactly how we ought to name the one that is born of the holy virgin according to the flesh, as God the Father clearly teaches through the voice of the prophet.
B. But this is not how it appears to these people. They say that God, or rather the Word of God, has been with us in the form of helping us. For he saved everything under heaven through the one that was born of a woman.
A. But tell me, was he not with Moses delivering the Israelites from the land of Egypt and from their tyranny, as it is written: “With strong hand and outstretched arm”? (Ps 136:12). And aftter this do we not find him saying to Joshua quite clearly: “As I was with Moses so shaall I be with you”? (Hos 3:7).
B. This is true.
A. Then why are neither of them called Emmanuel? Why does this name apply only to the one who was so wondrously born of a woman, according to the flesh, in these last times of the world?
B. Then how should we understand that God was born of a woman? Does it mean that the Word took up his being in her and from her?
A. Away with such a horrid and vile opinion. These are the teachings of a wanderer, of a sick mind that has strayed where it should not have gone so as to think that the ineffable being of the Only Begotten could ever be the fruit of flesh. On the contrary, as God he was ineffably begotten by nature from the Father and was coeternal with him. For those who wish to know clearly how, and in what manner, he appeared in a form like our own, and became man, the divine evangelist John explains when he says: “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth” (Jn 1:14). [St. Cyril of Alexandria, *On the Unity of Christ. trans. by JA McGuckin. SVS Press, 1995 Crestwood NY. p.52-53]

 

[Eleve]

I’ll take scripture over anybody’s doctrine any day. Maybe you should do the same. The light shines brighter with the truth the way and the light.

Sola scriptura and Scripture itself are not the same thing. Sola scriptura is a doctrine, and it is itself not a part of Scripture.

Mary is most definitely not the mother of God. There was no one before God. As you always ask, please provide book, chapter and verse!

Bill is not bound to provide Scriptural support, because he does not affirm the doctrine of sola scriptura. The title “Mother of God” is affirmed by the early Christian Council of Ephesus.

 

[Christalone]

Read Cyril of Alexandria’s On the Unity of Christ

Thanks anyways, but I stick to God’s Word and the Holy Spirits leading.