Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[JonNC]

Mary is most definitely not the mother of God. There was no one before God. As you always ask, please provide book, chapter and verse!

Matt. 1:23 “Behold, the virgin will be with child, and will bring forth a son, and they will call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Also Luke 2:7

Unless you don’t believe that He was born fully God, and fully man. Mary can quite scripturally be called Theotokos, the God bearer, the Mother of God.

Jon

 

[jimmy]

I’ll take scripture over anybody’s doctrine any day. Maybe you should do the same. The light shines brighter with the truth the way and the light.

Jesus is ‘the way, the truth, and the life’ as He mentions in the Gospel According to John. It is not either the scripture or someones doctrine. All doctrine is interpreted through the scriptures. If you read the book I mentioned you will see that it is an arguement about the interpretation of scripture. You can even see that from the short excerpt that I gave.

 

[jimmy]

Thanks anyways, but I stick to God’s Word and the Holy Spirits leading.

So in other words you accept what ever you want. You seem to think that you are led by the Spirit in contradiction with everyone else. You seem to think that Cyril wasn’t lead by the Spirit. You sound like a modernist and individualist which leads to relativism and ultimately leads to atheism whether you accept the scriptures or not because you have no grounding in the unity of the Church, or the body of Christ.

 

[Eleve]

Thanks anyways, but I stick to God’s Word and the Holy Spirits leading.

Cyril’s writing has references to Scripture. It’s the same as an argument as we might post (albeit written with a different audience, historically). We’re just referring you on to someone smarter and more respected than we are.

 

[Christalone]

Bill is not bound to provide Scriptural support

So what’s good for the goose is not for the gander? I see, absolutely the double standards are quite typical.

 

[jimmy]

The thing is, no matter how much you say you will stick to the scriptures your interpretation (theology) will always be conditioned by your preconceptions and the theology of those around you. It is impossible to escape it. And to try to escape it is nothing but the individualism which is encouraged by satan and leads to atheism. Rather what we should embrace is the true theology and true interpretation. The fathers were guided by the Spirit in their interpretation of scripture and therefore we should trust them.

 

[Eleve]

So what’s good for the goose is not for the gander? I see, absolutely the double standards are quite typical.

Bill is not bound to provide Scriptural support because he does not claim Scripture as justification for all his beliefs. You do make that claim, so you need to back up what you say with Scripture in order to be consistent.

This trolling is tiresome. Does anyone have anything new or meaningful to say?

 

[JonNC]

So what’s good for the goose is not for the gander? I see, absolutely the double standards are quite typical.

I provided a scripture reference. I’d like to hear what you think of mine.

Matt. 1:23 “Behold, the virgin will be with child, and will bring forth a son, and they will call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”
Also Luke 2:7

Jon

 

[jimmy]

All theology follows from your conception of Christ. The Arians believed that Christ was created in the beginning and so they saw no way of actually coming to know the Father because He was beyond all creation. St. Athanasius saw the incarnation as God actually becoming man so that He could bestow upon man His own characteristics. If Christ is not God then it is impossible that we could become immortal and impassible which are characteristics of the divine nature. Nestorius saw Christ as divided and so he used some of the gospel proclamations in explanation of the human Jesus and others in explanation of the divine Word who was united to the human Jesus. St. Cyril on the other hand spoke of Christ as God become man. There is an absolute unity of Christ so that he says that God died on the cross (in His humanity) for the salvation of man. By assuming what is ours He heals it and gives us what is His.

 

[jimmy]

Christalone, what is the use of a discussion if you are unwilling to consider others positions? It ceases to be a dialogue. Are you simply trying to convert us to your opinion or are you looking for a dialogue? I take the same position that Cyril took on the unity of Christ. It is an interpretation of scripture. Why not read it and consider that other people may be led by the Spirit as well?

 

[Thorwald]

We agree that Mary did not affect Jesus’ nature as God but we believe that Jesus underwent a second birth as man from Mary. Before time He was begotten from the Father and so He is eternal God, but in the fulness of time He was born from Mary and was made man for the sake of our salvation. He took on the fulness of our humanity as His own. It is an amazing paradox that the eternal was made to be temporal. The Immortal was made mortal, the strong one was made weak. He took our nature so that He could bestow upon us His sonship through His Grace and Spirit. As He says, we shall have the power to become children of God. And so He was conceived as a man and born of a woman.

Remember that Jesus is a divine person, not merely a human person as we are. He is the second person of the Trinity who became man. So when He took upon Himself our humanity through Mary He made Mary the mother of God. The flesh He took upon Himself became the humanity of the Son of God. So in as much as God became man, Mary was made to be the mother of God.

I find it humourous, that all Christians are aware of and believe in, the story of Christ, but find differences in how to logically explain it. We all like nice, neat little boxes that we can label, and put things into. Mary doesn’t quite fit so well.

Jesus began as “The Son of God” (“Lord of Hosts”). We are taught, that if we are found worthy until the end, we will become sons/daughters of God (equal unto the angels). Jesus, as Son of Man, proved that this is possible. He started as a Son of God (begotten), and again became a son of God, by proving His worthiness to the end, in human flesh. After His death and resurrection, He returned to His original glory, as Lord of Hosts, and now, also as Lamb of God. Mary is the mother of The Lamb. Does this qualify Mary, as being the mother of God? There will always be differences of opinion on this matter. Some could argue, that by being found worthy until the end, the Son of Man became ‘equal unto the angels’ (below God), but because the Son of Man is also the Lord of Hosts (part of God), that Mary could in fact be called the mother of God.

 

[Thorwald]

In addition to my post #50 (above), we have to ask the question, “If Jesus is already GOD before becoming the Son of Man, can Mary be the mother of God?”

If I take Genesis 6:2 to refer to angels, do we then have to assume that the offspring are also angels? (This may be a bad example…but, I’m trying)

 

[Brendan]

Mary is most definitely not the mother of God. There was no one before God. As you always ask, please provide book, chapter and verse!

You seem to be confusing motherhood with creator? Catholics do not claim that Mary created God or even begot Him, but rather she gave birth to God and provided maternal nurturing, both within the womb and, after birth, from without.

Does your theology belive\hold that birth and creation are the same thing?

 

[jimmy]

I find it humourous, that all Christians are aware of and believe in, the story of Christ, but find differences in how to logically explain it. We all like nice, neat little boxes that we can label, and put things into. Mary doesn’t quite fit so well.

Jesus began as “The Son of God” (“Lord of Hosts”). We are taught, that if we are found worthy until the end, we will become sons/daughters of God (equal unto the angels). Jesus, as Son of Man, proved that this is possible. He started as a Son of God (begotten), and again became a son of God, by proving His worthiness to the end, in human flesh. After His death and resurrection, He returned to His original glory, as Lord of Hosts, and now, also as Lamb of God. Mary is the mother of The Lamb. Does this qualify Mary, as being the mother of God? There will always be differences of opinion on this matter. Some could argue, that by being found worthy until the end, the Son of Man became ‘equal unto the angels’ (below God), but because the Son of Man is also the Lord of Hosts (part of God), that Mary could in fact be called the mother of God.

He didn’t cease to be the Son of God at the incarnation because that is His nature unlike us. For example at His baptism in the Jordan the Father tells the people that Jesus is His beloved Son (Matt.4). But what He did was to raise up our humanity so that in Christ we can become children of God (Jn1). Jesus who was immortal died on the cross but since death had no control over Him He rose again and trampled down death, the last enemy, and conquered sin.

It wasn’t simply a man that showed us the way, it was God Himself who walked the path and was crucified. Even though He was in the form of God He emptied Himself even to the point of being crucified. No man can be saved without God.

If we speak of a seperation between the Lamb of God and the Son of God what is the difference between Jesus and Moses or the other prophets? Isn’t it more accurate to say that the Son of God became the Lamb of God and so they are applied to one and the same person?

“If Jesus is already GOD before becoming the Son of Man, can Mary be the mother of God?”

Considering what I just said I would say that you must say that Mary is the mother of God because it is one person. I am not implying that Mary somehow affected the divinity of the Son of God but that the Son truely became man and that He was born of a woman as a man. And so in as much as God became man, Mary is the mother of God.

 

[Hesychios]

You seem to be confusing motherhood with creator? Catholics do not claim that Mary created God or even begot Him, but rather she gave birth to God and provided maternal nurturing, both within the womb and, after birth, from without.

Good post.

 

[GraceDK]

Holiness is a matter of degree.
.

True, because sanctification is a process too.
But Justification is not. We are justified trough Christ and Christ alone. He, through giving His life for us, is our Justification.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel, not one shred of that doctrine is biblical. No one shred.

Mary was chosen by God. Mary would bore the Son of Man, but that is where it ENDS. Understand that Jesus is the Son of God but also the Son of Man. My goodness brother. Look as what we have done. Not only does God need help, but it has to be by a women who birthed a baby… Women birth babies all the time. Jesus was 100% man and that 100% man part required man in birth. The rest is done by the holy spirit being it that he is 100% God.
Understand, Mary is a finite creature. Jesus is an infinite God. Do not place Mary in the same aspect of the communion of the Godhead. A mediator for the holy spirit. The holy spirit does not need a chosen birth mother to mediate on His behalf. Mary has nothing more to do with the holy spirit as you and I. God chose you to do his work as he chose Mary and every one else. Stop esteeming man and esteem the only one who is worth of esteem.

Gabriel of 12;

How much more biblical does one need to show Mary gave birth to “Emmanuel” God is with us? Paul states this fact as do the Gospels. True God does not need anyone to save or to do his will. God spoke his first Evangelium from Genesis 3:15 after the fall of man, what God himself chose to be his will. It is God’s will that this has taken place, Mary in her “yes” to God will cooperated her freewill with God’s will. I think we have a misunderstanding of terminology and prejudiced background against these mysteries God believed since the First century Christians unchanged today.

This denying the Will of God in Mary’s life from her humanity and her participation was called into existance since the fall of man by God himself (Gen.3:15), come to fulfillment through our New Eve, “Woman” as Jesus dignified Mary with this title, and Jesus the Word of God became flesh through Mary’s humanity by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

God chose to come to us through a “Woman” the Blessed Virgin Mary. This vessel That God chose who is Mary could not in any way be tainted with sin, for nothing unclean comes before God, thus the Immaculate conception. That is why “SCRIPTURE” calls Mary 2x’s in the New Testament "most blessed among women, and “all ages will call her blessed”.

What other creature in God’s creation does God speak so highly of such as the Blessed Virgin Mary. Gabriel (the strength of God) gives testimony of Mary’s highly favored of God. Who wants to mess with God’s mother? Yet we have not touched on the prophets who confirm Mary’s doctrine.

It is not I who place Mary as the Mother of God (Emmanuel). God chose this of his own will. Are you going to contest God’s will? Again, terminology appears to be misunderstood of Mary’s role in the scripture.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Jon, this is the one and only argument everyone alwasy brings up.

Nothing is wrong with prayer requests… in the case of Mary however, she is no longer on earth, breathing, touchable and huggable… I can’t walk up to Mary and say “Mary, please pray for me today”. She is with God doing only God knows what… To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord yes. Gathering in His presents where God chose her to be in the end, that is another story. All we can really do is speculate. I just want to bring up a point here… I am not sure if Jesus ever said to her that she will be in heaven. Did you ever think about that? How do you know what Mary, or any of the “saints” we so highly esteem, did when the doors were shut an nobody else was looking? How do we know what you do when the door shut. Are you truely Christian?.. Judgement day is indeed when salvation truely comes into fruition, when God has the final say.
Now you going to pray to her to pray for you. This is what I am talking about in the other forum there… Prayer, weather or not you chose to believe, is a form of Worship and requires speaking to a dead person if it is directed at anyone other then God. Jesus is the only Man whom is God that is indeed resurected and alive both in body and spirit. It is the EXACT same as going to a graveyard and speaking to that dead person… its biblically wrong.

Gabriel of 12;

If Jesus can forgive a Murdering theif on the cross and promise him paradise on the same day? Logically Jesus would obey his Word, to Honor his Mother in life and in death, to place high favored on Mary and for “all ages” to call her blessed.

Moses and the prophets gave witness to the Word of God. Mary bore the Word of God.

 

[placido]

Mary is most definitely not the mother of God. There was no one before God. As you always ask, please provide book, chapter and verse!

To say “Mary is most definitely not the mother of God” is to say, either that Jesus is not God or that Jesus was not the Son of Mary. All we have to do now to prove you wrong is to show that Jesus is God (Isaiah 9:5-6, John 1:1, 14) and that He was born of Mary (Isaiah 7:14).
And a friendly reminder: to say Jesus/God has no mother is to say the Lord did not come in the flesh – that is the spirit of the antichrist.

placido

 

[dyluck]

Gabriel of 12;

If Jesus can forgive a Murdering theif on the cross and promise him paradise on the same day? Logically Jesus would obey his Word, to Honor his Mother in life and in death, to place high favored on Mary and for “all ages” to call her blessed.

Moses and the prophets gave witness to the Word of God. Mary bore the Word of God.

Very strange connection, but ok, yes Jesus as easily as forgiving a thief on a cross as he honored his mother. Remember Jesus doesn’t owe mary anything, including a spot of high rank in heaven. In fact the bible says the lesser will be made greater and the greater will be made lesser…
Understand, Mary life was never her own but indeed Christ’s. Christ was the only one who had the right to hHis own life, the life of others and the only one able to lay it down and take it up. Mary’s life is borrowed from God and not her own.

Mary was Jesus’ mother; however, in heaven there is never any family reference other then siblings. Sister and Brother. We will be the siblings of King Jesus and co-heirs to the throne. Mary is Jesus’ sister in heaven. Same being my earthly father and mother (if they indeed are saved) are my brother and sister. That is biblical
Have you ever been told to obey your parents in heaven? No because they are no longer your parents in heaven. We obey, glorify and seek God in heaven.

Yes, Mary did bare Christ. I am not denying the divinity of Christ; however, Mary is not the mother of God almighty. Do you understand? God has no supernatural mother. Jesus, the Word of God, had an earthly mother. Jesus indeed has 1 heavenly father whom is God and 1 earthly father Joseph whom is now his brother. Jesus is part of the divine trinity -Father, Son and Holy Sprit. Not the divine trinity +1- Father, Son, Holy Spirit and blessed Mary, mother of God.