Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[Richard_Kastner]

There are many saints that we are certain are in heaven.

You and your church would be certainly wrong then. The bible does not teach that.
Gen 2: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 3 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
God said if Adam and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they would die. The serpent said they wouldn’t. Man has chosen to believe the lie of Satan ever since.

We don’t believe the saints are dead. As Christ said, God is the God of the living not of the dead. Moses wasn’t dead when Christ spoke to Him at the Transfiguration.

Jesus was talking to the Saducees in reference to the resurrection when He said that God was the God of the living. There are some people in heaven Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and the souls raised at Jesus resurrection, but that’s it.

Many Protestants have made it a big issue over which they curse Catholics. Many don’t consider Catholics Christians because of prayer to saints and some other things. It shouldn’t even be a bone of contention because scripture doesn’t speak against it.

It doesn’t teach us to do it either. Jesus tells us to pray to “Our Father”

The only way that it can be considered antiscriptural is if you assume that if it is not contained in the scriptures it is antiscriptural. But that is a very restrictive understanding of our knowledge of God and His truth.

Yea, but why would you do it if there is no scriptural precedent for it?

As I mentioned above, we as Catholics do not believe the saints who have died are dead. The only thing that death does is to remove the veil from your eyes. And so they are just as much, or even more so, a part of the Church than we are who are still living on earth. So we believe there is a communion of the saints here on earth with the saints in heaven.

Where does it say this in scripture? Sounds like you are just parroting the error of your church.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Typical of people who pretend not to know that, at death, the body returns to where it came from and the spirit returns to where it came from. So, what came out of the tomb was not Lazarus’ spirit but his body.

Where was his spirit then?

Can you imagine a righteous person in heaven being perturbed by God’s action (Jesus is God, remember)? Even Jesus came down from heaven to this sinful world and He is our example.

Yea, and He is the only one. Jn1:18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Unfortunately for you,

Why is this unfortunate for me?

Ecclesiastes does not end at chapter 9 verse 5. Ecclesiastes 12:7 states: “The spirit shall return unto God who gave it”. Lazarus’ spirit was not in the tomb, it was with God.

placido

Think about this v. a minute placido, it says “The spirit shall return unto God who gave it”.
Does not the Catholic church teach that the soul of the damned goes to a place of eternal torment. Yet this verse makes no differentiation between the righteous and the wicked. The spirit (breath of God) of both the righteous and the wicked returns to God.

 

[jimmy]

Of coarse I beleive in the resurrection. My response does not even imply that I don’t. In Matt22:29-32 Jesus says in v. 31But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
32I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. He is talking about the resurrection Here is what my commentary says about v. 32. The God of Abraham. What honor is there in being the God of dead men? Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were dead at the time God appeared to Moses before the burning bush. Why would God identify Himself as the God of the patriarchs, except in anticipation of the resurrection? In this same anticipation, by faith, Abraham “looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God” (Heb. 11:10). It has been suggested that Jesus quoted from the Pentateuch (Ex. 3:6, 16) because the Sadducees believed only in the inspiration of the books of Moses.

I am fine with your commentary on the verse. But your posts certainly do imply that you deny the resurrection. You keep refering to passages about people dying like Gen2:17 to argue against the saints being alive.

There are some people in heaven Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and the souls raised at Jesus resurrection, but that’s it.

Now you are adding to the scripture because that is certainly not mentioned. You have placed your own limit on it.

What about the martyrs in the book of Revelation that cry out to God for vengence?

How weak is Christ if He lived in His saints and yet they are dead? Isn’t He life itself as He said?

It doesn’t teach us to do it either. Jesus tells us to pray to “Our Father”

And Jesus taught specific words, he did not teach you how to use any other words than those specific words in the Our Father. So I hope you never use anyother words.

There are a lot of things the scriptures don’t instruct us to do but you probably do anyway. Just because it doesn’t instruct us to do something doesn’t make it any less true.

Yea, but why would you do it if there is no scriptural precedent for it?

Because Christ founded the Church and the Church has done it for nearly 2000 years now and I have no reason why they shouldn’t do it so it is only sensible that I should trust the Church on the matter. The saints throughout history have been filled with the Holy Spirit so they have known the truth of God so there is no reason to distrust them.

Where does it say this in scripture? Sounds like you are just parroting the error of your church.

What, that the saints are alive? Read through the NT. Christ has trampled down death as Paul says. Christ is life and He lives within us through His Holy Spirit. Read Revelation with all the saints actually alive and praising God.

And you are just spreading your errors. What you are saying isn’t present in the scripture. You keep reffering to verses that say people will die. That is great and no one disagrees with it. What we disagree with is that the saints are dead and they can’t praise God in heaven. Look at the Transfiguration to see that Moses is not dead. Moses died, why can He speak to Christ? You have made an exception of souls that are dead because you want to hold onto your doctrine but it contradicts scripture. I will reffer you to Christ’s words again: He is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Israel. He is therefore not the God of the dead but of the living.

 

[BRB1]

She is not my mediator. Christ is and He alone. He is the man-god, divine and human who had no sin, and thus he could stand between me and God as the Perfect High Priest and carry the only Sacrifice fully pleasing to God, the Body of Himself, so that there has now been mediated.

When we give Mary titles that are only due to God we make our brethren stumble and then Catholics are the ones keeping these away from the Catholic Church.

Mediation: to guide others in contemplation /// Webster’s Def.

Mediator: one who serves as the mediation guide //// my definition.

Ask yourself this GraceDK … who in scripture was constantly considering [contemplating] Christ ? from that first message of Gabriel …and later that of the angels, given the shepherds, and then to her ]

Luke 2:19 But Mary kept all these things, pondering them in her heart.

Who bonds best to their child … mother or father ? Do you not think Christ could find Mary of great use in conveying his graces to his children ? Do you not see Mary as your spiritual mother ?

Look at the words of Christ in gospels Matthew 12:48-49 … “Who are my mother (singular), and brothers (plural) ?” … Here are my mother and my brother(s)!

 

[Eleve]

Frankly, I’m not convinced that the word μεσίτης in 1 Timothy 2:5 ought to be translated as “mediator.” The word itself, near as I can tell, means “middle,” and does not carry the connotations of an intermediary in communication that “mediator” does in English. Unfortunately, my standard reference for this sort of question is strangely silent on this particular word.

 

[GraceDK]

Mediation: to guide others in contemplation /// Webster’s Def.

Mediator: one who serves as the mediation guide //// my definition.

Ask yourself this GraceDK … who in scripture was constantly considering [contemplating] Christ ? from that first message of Gabriel …and later that of the angels, given the shepherds, and then to her ]

Luke 2:19 But Mary kept all these things, pondering them in her heart.

Who bonds best to their child … mother or father ? Do you not think Christ could find Mary of great use in conveying his graces to his children ? Do you not see Mary as your spiritual mother ?

Look at the words of Christ in gospels Matthew 12:48-49 … “Who are my mother (singular), and brothers (plural) ?” … Here are my mother and my brother(s)!

As far as I am aware the Bible says: There is one mediator between man and God, namely Christ.
This is my understanding of the word.
Mary gave birth to God. That was a huge privilege and a mystery. My own earthly mother taught me to pray the Our Father.
I still will never call any of these creatures “a mediator” between me and God. To me its clear that when the Bible speaks of mediator it means “reconciler”. not intercessor which is both acceptable to call God and man.

Peace.

 

[placido]

Where was his spirit then?

Since you don’t know where the spirit goes after death, you think it follows the body into the tomb. According to you no separation of body and spirit takes place at death. Both are buried in the tomb. That is wrong brother. For a start, please read Jesus’ parable in Luke 16.

Think about this v. a minute placido, it says “The spirit shall return unto God who gave it”.

I did just that - for bouble the time you proposed.

Does not the Catholic church teach that the soul of the damned goes to a place of eternal torment. Yet this verse makes no differentiation between the righteous and the wicked.

Yes, the verse makes no differentiation because even the spirit of the damned returns to God … but that is not the end of the story: there follows the separation of the sheep and the goats.

The spirit (breath of God) of both the righteous and the wicked returns to God.

Yes !!!

placido

 

[altabz]

I don’t know what make you protestants so odd with the word “Mother of God”? I’ll give you a comparative example, the mother of Barack Obama can be called Mother of the President is that odd? Nop did the Mother of the President give birth to the position President?Nop but why we called her the Mother of the President? Simple she gave birth to the person that became the president of the U.S.A. That’s the same with Mary the Mother of God, we Catholics call Her the Mother of God not because she gave birth to God but because, she gave birth to Jesus who is a human person in the flesh but God in spirit. She’s the Mother of God not because she gave birth to God but to the person who is God Jesus.

The logic there is simple any mother in the world that have a son/daughter who have position attachment, profession if her son/daughter is a lawyer we can call her mother of a lawyer, if her son/daughter is a President we can call her Mother of the President. And Mary is not different to those Mothers I cited although a very special one. But neverthless in the same situation Mary is the Mother of God not by giving birth to God. But by giving birth Jesus a God . Since Jesus is both Human and God why remove the the titled Mother of God.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

“The spirit shall return unto God who gave it”.You keep refering to passages about people dying like Gen2:17 to argue against the saints being alive.

Ok, so what does that have to do with the resurrection?

Now you are adding to the scripture because that is certainly not mentioned. You have placed your own limit on it.
What about the martyrs in the book of Revelation that cry out to God for vengence?

Gen5:24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
2Kings 2: 11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Matt17: 2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Matt 27:51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Here are the vs. that show that Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and the souls raised at the resurrectin of Jesus were either raised from the dead or were taken alive to heaven. As for the souls under the altar. I’m sure you will agree that the book of Rev. uses symbolic language for the most part and is not meant to be taken literally. Let’s take a close look at it to see what it really says: Rev. 6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

First of all, these souls are under the altar. Where is the altar? Is it not on the earth and would not under the altar be in the earth. In v. 11 they are even told to “rest yet for a little season” or sleep in the grave. Also consider these vs.

Exodus 29: 12And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar. In the Levitical sanctuary service the blood of the sacrifice was poured out under the altar. Also there is
Gen 5:10And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;

Clearly these are souls that have been slain for the testimony of Jesus. and they are told to rest a little longer in the grave. Why? Because there are still some souls that are going to join them.

How weak is Christ if He lived in His saints and yet they are dead? Isn’t He life itself as He said?

Well Christ certainly is not weak and yes, He is life but that doesn’t change the natural order of things. You have accused me of denying the resurrection. I would counter that it is you that deny the resurrection in saying that souls are already in heaven. If they are in heaven, what reason is there for a resurrection? Consider 1Thess. 4:13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus is comming back Jimmy, He’s comming back to get His saints. The dead under the altar now, the dead that are going to be under the altar, and the righteous living. You will notice that these souls under the altar are given white robes. This is symbolic of the righteousness of Christ won for us on the cross. I’m planning on being in that number Jim. Are you? There’s only one way John 4:6

continued

 

[placido]

Gen5:24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
2Kings 2: 11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Matt17: 2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Matt 27:51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It is amazing to see you quoting Scripture that says “many bodies” and you go on to say the following:

Here are the vs. that show that Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and the souls raised at the resurrectin of Jesus were either raised from the dead or were taken alive to heaven.

But the verse does not talk about souls, it says “many bodies”. You see the difference?

placido

 

[Richard_Kastner]

And Jesus taught specific words, he did not teach you how to use any other words than those specific words in the Our Father. So I hope you never use anyother words.

Actually Christ taught us the manner in which we should pray. Not the specific words Matt6:9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

There are a lot of things the scriptures don’t instruct us to do but you probably do anyway. Just because it doesn’t instruct us to do something doesn’t make it any less true.

Why do somethig that isn’t given for us to do by God? When we do we usually run the risk of falling into self righteosness or the sin of pride.

Because Christ founded the Church

Christ founded a church, but it wasn’t the Catholic church.

and the Church has done it for nearly 2000 years now and I have no reason why they shouldn’t do it so it is only sensible that I should trust the Church on the matter. The saints throughout history have been filled with the Holy Spirit so they have known the truth of God so there is no reason to distrust them.

What matter are you talking about here?

What, that the saints are alive? Read through the NT. Christ has trampled down death as Paul says. Christ is life and He lives within us through His Holy Spirit. Read Revelation with all the saints actually alive and praising God.

Christ has trampled down death and made it possible to live forever and He does live in us through His Spirit. So, how does this invalidate anything I have said, as for the Revelation the praising done by the saints is done after the resurrection.

And you are just spreading your errors. What you are saying isn’t present in the scripture. You keep reffering to verses that say people will die. That is great and no one disagrees with it. What we disagree with is that the saints are dead and they can’t praise God in heaven. Look at the Transfiguration to see that Moses is not dead. Moses died, why can He speak to Christ? You have made an exception of souls that are dead because you want to hold onto your doctrine but it contradicts scripture. I will reffer you to Christ’s words again: He is the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Israel. He is therefore not the God of the dead but of the living

Well I have shown you from scripture that what I say is true. I can’t make you beleive. All I can do is pray that the Spirit of the living God open your heart to the acceptance of the truth.

 

[placido]

Gen5:24And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
2Kings 2: 11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Matt17: 2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Matt 27:51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Here you quoted Scripture that clearly says “many bodies”, but you go on to say the following:

Here are the vs. that show that Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and the souls raised at the resurrectin of Jesus were either raised from the dead or were taken alive to heaven.

The verse does not talk about souls, it says “many bodies”. You see the difference?

placido

 

[Richard_Kastner]

It is amazing to see you quoting Scripture that says “many bodies” and you go on to say the following:
But the verse does not talk about souls, it says “many bodies”. You see the difference?

placido

I’m interested placido. What do you think the difference is?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Since you don’t know where the spirit goes after death, you think it follows the body into the tomb. According to you no separation of body and spirit takes place at death. Both are buried in the tomb. That is wrong brother. For a start, please read Jesus’ parable in Luke 16.

Ok, placido I think we have a failure to communicate here. You said**:“Typical of people who pretend not to know that, at death, the body returns to where it came from and the spirit returns to where it came from. So, what came out of the tomb was not Lazarus’ spirit but his body.” ** To which I replied: “Where was his spirit then?” I was asking you. If Lazarus’s spirit was not with his body where was it.

Yes, the verse makes no differentiation because even the spirit of the damned returns to God

So are you saying that hell is with God or are you agreeing with me.

… but that is not the end of the story: there follows the separation of the sheep and the goats.

This, however happens after the resurrection.

Yes !!!

So, you do agree with me.

 

[BRB1]

Christ founded a church, but it wasn’t the Catholic church.

.

What’s your evidence to support your opinion ?

Did Christ leave the early Apostles churchless? Was M. Luther the measure of Peter, Paul, or even Mary ?

Get a grip on reality. Read Early Church history and find us some evidence of another Church here on earth other than the RCC and her Eastern Brethren.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Richard Please tell us who started the First Church and what name it has

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Please tell us who started the First Church and what name it has

The first church was started by God in Gen. 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. The woman refered to here was the church of God through which Jesus would enter the world and crush Satan’s head by His sacrifice on the cross. The church went by many names some of which are Jews,children of Israel, daughter of Zion and others.

 

[placido]

I’m interested placido. What do you think the difference is?

The difference is that the Bible says “many bodies” came out of the tombs, yet you say “many souls”. A soul is never buried, a body is.

Ok, placido I think we have a failure to communicate here. You said**:“Typical of people who pretend not to know that, at death, the body returns to where it came from and the spirit returns to where it came from. So, what came out of the tomb was not Lazarus’ spirit but his body.” ** To which I replied: “Where was his spirit then?” I was asking you. If Lazarus’s spirit was not with his body where was it.

Lazarus’ spirit was where the Bible says the spirit goes: at death the body returns to where it came from (dust) and the spirit returns to where it came from (God).

So are you saying that hell is with God or are you agreeing with me.

How can you make such a statement when I clearly said “that is not the end of the story”. The spirit of the damned returns to God not to be with God but to be condemned.

This, however happens after the resurrection.

Nope! What happens at resurrection is, the dead body and the spirit unite again. That is what resurrection means. For instance, when we say Jesus resurrected in the third day, we don’t mean His spirit was also in the tomb. We mean His spirit returned to His body that was in the tomb.

So, you do agree with me.

Yes, I agree with you when you said:

The spirit (breath of God) of both the righteous and the wicked returns to God.

placido

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The difference is that the Bible says “many bodies” came out of the tombs, yet you say “many souls”. A soul is never buried, a body is.

You are right a soul is not buried, but these bodies were not being buried they were being raised. Do you think these were some kind of zombie creatures (bodies without spirits) that were raised and went into the city to preach to many? By the way a soul may not be buried, but it can die. Ezekial18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Lazarus’ spirit was where the Bible says the spirit goes: at death the body returns to where it came from (dust) and the spirit returns to where it came from (God).

I agree with everything you say here, but this is not what you originally said. You said:
**“Typical of people who pretend not to know that, at death, the body returns to where it came from and the spirit returns to where it came from. So, what came out of the tomb was not Lazarus’ spirit but his body.”**When Jesus reanimated Lasarus’ body his **spirit/breath of God **returned to him and he became once again a living soul. So what came out of Lazarus’ grave was his body which was reanimated with the his **spirit/breath of God. ** These two together make a soul.

How can you make such a statement when I clearly said “that is not the end of the story”. The spirit of the damned returns to God not to be with God but to be condemned.

Ecc.12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Placido, here is Ecc12:7 were does it say anything here about condemnation? I’m thinking the part about condemnation is your own or your churchs’ invention.

Nope! What happens at resurrection is, the dead body and the spirit unite again. That is what resurrection means. For instance, when we say Jesus resurrected in the third day, we don’t mean His spirit was also in the tomb. We mean His spirit returned to His body that was in the tomb.

I certainly agree with everything you say here, but this certainly begs the question. If after death, the spirit of the wicked go to a place of eternal torment and the righteous go to heaven to be with God for all eternity. Why have a resurrection at all?

 

[placido]

Dear Richard,

In post #116 I said:
"Placido:

Lazarus’ spirit was where the Bible says the spirit goes: at death the body returns to where it came from (dust) and the spirit returns to where it came from (God).

Your response was:

I agree with everything you say here, but this is not what you originally said.

And here is what I “originally” said (in post #93):

Placido:

"Typical of people who pretend not to know that, at death, the body returns to where it came from and the spirit returns to where it came from.

Brother Richard, please don’t argue for the sake of arguing. Don’t try to see a difference where there is none. Anyone else shall see no difference between what I said in post #93 and what I said in post #116.
That is all for now. I will reply to the rest of your post later.

placido