Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[Jeeda555]

To me, Mary leads no one nowhere if we have not first been led to her by the Holy Spirit or Christ. I met Mary through Jesus when He introduced her to me. Before that the Holy Spirit opened my heart to believing in Christ.
There are people who have Mary as part of their new age spirituality. These people do not always become Christians.
If you dont see Mary through and by the Holy Spirit, you dont see her as she is. So I think your words, which are widely used among Catholics, should be taken with moderation.

Peace.

First, thank you for your clarity.

You say “To me, Mary leads no one nowhere if we have not first been led to her by the Holy Spirit or Christ.” I have often heard Catholics say “Mary always points to Christ”, yet this says “the Holy Spirit or Christ leads to Mary.” That’s what is so confusing to me (although I understand what you mean, about people “not seeing her as she is.”). I just don’t understand why it seems people *need *Mary (and I mean that in no disrespect). If you have Christ is that not enough? Do Catholics *have *to embrace Mary with everything the Church teaches about her (Assumption, Stayed a Virgin…forgive me, I don’t know the proper doctrine name for this…, Queen of Heaven, etc.)? Is a part of being Catholic tied into Mary’s role, especially about issues that the Bible is silent on? (ex/ the Assumption; maybe she was “swept up into Heaven” so to speak, but maybe she died a natural death. The bible itself mentions neither).

 

[Jeeda555]

Absolutely. Don’t cross it… don’t get near it even.
The one thing Mary and Elijah and Moses and all the saints in heaven want from you is that you follow and love Jesus Christ…

That’s what I find so scary about Mary (not Mary herself, just Mary’s role in the Church as said by tradition). For me it is such a fine line.

For example, there have been many recorded sightings of Mary throughout history (which, by the way, are their any of Jesus? If so I am not familiar with them). Now I’m not one to say “Oh that was Mary, definitelly!”, nor am I to say “It’s absolute fraud!”. At this point I honestly don’t know, and I leave it at that.

But I cannot for the *life *of me shake that scripture (2 Corinthians 11:14 “no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.” Satan can even masquerade as an angel of light… How horrifying! Satan is very good at tricking humans, and humans fall for it time and again (I know I do). So with Mary, it’s just a very scary thing…one that I don’t feel comfortable about persueing too much, for fear that I may be led off the path.

If I chase Jesus; if I study his life, model my actions after his, treat others as I treated them, how can I go wrong? But to look at another’s life, even Mary’s…I know I could get caught up in her and neglect Jesus, and as great of a person as she may have been/is, she’s not Jesus. You know what I mean?

 

[GraceDK]

First, thank you for your clarity.

You say “To me, Mary leads no one nowhere if we have not first been led to her by the Holy Spirit or Christ.” I have often heard Catholics say “Mary always points to Christ”, yet this says “the Holy Spirit or Christ leads to Mary.” That’s what is so confusing to me (although I understand what you mean, about people “not seeing her as she is.”). I just don’t understand why it seems people *need *Mary (and I mean that in no disrespect). If you have Christ is that not enough? Do Catholics *have *to embrace Mary with everything the Church teaches about her (Assumption, Stayed a Virgin…forgive me, I don’t know the proper doctrine name for this…, Queen of Heaven, etc.)? Is a part of being Catholic tied into Mary’s role, especially about issues that the Bible is silent on? (ex/ the Assumption; maybe she was “swept up into Heaven” so to speak, but maybe she died a natural death. The bible itself mentions neither).

Jeeda, when I say we dont know Mary except through the Holy Spirit, I mean that we know her as the mother of our Lord through the Holy Spirit. As the mother of our Lord we bless her in all generations because God has blessed her so mightily.
The Holy Spirit does not “point” to Mary. It points to Christ and only then to Mary. Because if it was not for Christ Mary would just be another woman in human history.
So as you can hear I dont agree with the Catholics who say Mary always points to Jesus… I mean i understand what they mean, because this was the will of Mary when she lived: to point to Jesus, and it continues to be her wish, but we cannot understand Mary, or John or Paul for that matter, if we dont first have faith through the Spirit of God. So we always-already encountered Him.

Jeeda, what do you mean when you say “need”? I dont need Mary in the sense that I need Christ. I dont even need Mary in the sense that I need my own mother on earth, because my own mother - a protestant and a great mother by the way - gave me love and milk when I was small.
So what role has Mary to me. Well. I had a tough time with her for a long time. The Church teaches that a Catholic need not pray to her in order to be a good Catholic, but it has dogma that we must believe and so on and so forth and I felt many of my Catholic brethren went overboard ( I still do, but I confess that I may simply not understand them). One day I said: I wont pray to Mary anymore about anything. I am too afraid to cross the line. That night Jesus spoke to me and said: Dont worry about my mother. Delight in her because she has brought me so much joy.
It made me weep… you see, because I love Jesus… and she brought him joy and it changed my whole perspective.
I still only follow my conscience of course. There are prayers and songs that I dont pray to Mary when others do. And I am still Catholic. the dogma have been explained sufficiently to me. I believe Mary is what the Church teaches. Christ confirmed this to me directly. Thats another wonderful story.

As my Lord, yes, Christ is enough. But it gives colour to my life to have a church family in the seen and unseen world. Its like… I love God, but I would be sad if I had no friends in the world.
I am particularly fond of Padre Pio. He inspired me. I dont pray much to saints, but I am happy they were and are here.
Mary might have died or slept in, but we do believe she has been bodily resurrected… like Elijah

At any rate… dont sweat this. What matters is you have a personal relationship with Christ and that you trust in Him. He is the foundation, the Head… so rest in Him.

Peace and Shalom

 

[GraceDK]

That’s what I find so scary about Mary (not Mary herself, just Mary’s role in the Church as said by tradition). For me it is such a fine line

For example, there have been many recorded sightings of Mary throughout history (which, by the way, are their any of Jesus? If so I am not familiar with them). Now I’m not one to say “Oh that was Mary, definitelly!”, nor am I to say “It’s absolute fraud!”. At this point I honestly don’t know, and I leave it at that.

If I chase Jesus; if I study his life, model my actions after his, treat others as I treated them, how can I go wrong? But to look at another’s life, even Mary’s…I know I could get caught up in her and neglect Jesus, and as great of a person as she may have been/is, she’s not Jesus. You know what I mean?

Jesus has appeared to numerous saints and still he appears to people all over the world. I know four women who simultaneously had the same vision of Jesus. I know at least two others who saw Him ( I mean personally…all of these that I mention)… and many who heard him, had visions… dreams. I also know two that saw the Virgin Mary. I know also know one that saw an angel.
The Church does not teach that you have to believe in Marian apparitions. These are part of the private revelations department.
I for instance believe that Medjugorje is an authentic site for Marian apparitions but some of the others have elements that seem odd to me, so I choose not to deal with them and I am free not to.
Will you honestly tell me you are never inspired by other Christian brothers or sisters who in remarkable ways follow/ed Christ?
I know many that I look up to besides Christ who is in a category for Himself high high above every creature…
For instance I have read quite a few books by pentecostal evangelists and I really am inspired by their lives… they are close in history and powerful in faith.

Peace to you.

 

[guanophore]

When a Christian confronts a Catholic on his/her worshipping of Mary, the reply is always the same: “We don’t worship her! We just give her honor that is due her as the Mother of God.” But is this true? I can, from experience, tell you that we prayed to her, through her, by her and for her as taught by the Roman hierarchy.

Do you mean to say that you are an ex-Catholic? Praying to, through, and by someone is not the same as worship. Supplication is not worship. If you left the Catholic Church, it is clear that you did so very ignorant of what the Church believes and teaches. I hope you are willing to find out that you were misinformed. Your post has also implied, once again, that Catholics are not Christian. This type of disrespect will not be tolerated on this site. If you wish to post here,you are required to respect our faith. You don’t have to agree with it, but you do need to be civil.

Yet the Bible tells me:

that all things are “by him [Jesus], and for him” (Col.1:16), “…of him, and through him and to him” (Rom.11:36).

Indeed! Including the communion of saints!

Acts 4:12 clearly states: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is NONE OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN, WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED." (Emphasis mine)

Praying for others to be saved is not becoming the means by which they are saved.

Yes, Jesus is the source of our salvation, however, He is generous, and has allowed others to participate in HIs saving work. Paul writes that they are ministers of reconciling the world to God:

2 Cor 5:19-20
in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and **entrusting to us the message **of reconciliation. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

1 Cor 9:21-23
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Does Paul believe he can “save some”? Surely nothing he can do apart from Christ, as he says elsewhere. However, in Christ, we are able to become members of the ministry of Christ that brings salvation to the world. the Church teaches that this ministry does not end after we pass from this life to the next.

1 Tim 4:16
16 Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Does the Apostle mean that Timothy can actually save himself, or others? Certainly not apart from Christ! yet, if we hold fast to Him, we become partakers of His divine grace, and able to participate in His saving mission.

"My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. " James 5:19 - 1 Peter 1:1

Can anything but the blood of Christ cover sins? Yet, we participate in the benefits of His shed blood when we pull back those who wander from the truth.

Can one person save another’s soul from death? Yet, when we bring back sinners from error, we participate in salvaiton.

Jude 20-23
20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21 keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And convince some, who doubt; 23 **save some, by snatching them out of the fire; **on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

Can we build ourselves? Is it not God who builds us up? Can we keep ourselves in the love of God? Can we convince anyone, apart from God? Can we save some who are falling into sin by snatching them out of the fire? Isn’t this God’s job? He is generous, and allows us to participate.

 

[guanophore]

Let our Christian readers decide if the Church of Rome has committed the “sin of superstition” (as they interpreted it - by attributing to a creature a power that belongs to God alone).

The error in your reasoning here, Mike, is the thinking that we 'attribute to a creature". Because the Catholic Church does not teach that any of the supernatural abilities and gifts that God works through His people are “of the creature”. Anything that the saints have done, or can do, is rooted in the power that belongs to God alone.

The following song, “Daily, Daily Sing to Mary”, I learned in 2nd grade. It was one of my favorites, and as a child, I sang it with all my heart.

It is good to learn that you were baptized Catholic, and had some basic formation as a child. This makes it more likely that you can overcome the indoctrination and heresies to which you have been subjected since that time.

If Roman Catholics do not worship Mary, then why does line three say to worship her?

It is an archaic use of language that means to highly esteem. Same as the aristocracy in Europe was referred to as “Lord”, “Lady” or “your worship”. It does not mean the adoration that belongs only to God. I agree, though, that the language can be misleading in this day and age.

Take in consideration that in Rev.19:10, it says, “And I fell at his feet to worship him [the angel of God], And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow-servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God:”

Catholics do not worship Mary. If you are willing to understand the various meanings of that word, this will be come clear to you.

Would the Catholic Church have me believe that Mary would accept what the angel of God rejected? Mary was a Hebrew woman who was acquainted with the book of Psalms 89:9 which says, “Thou [God] rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them”. But, she is now presented as telling the Catholic people that SHE can calm the troubled sea!

Mary’s soul “magnifies the Lord”. Any praise that is given to her becomes magnified as it is turned over to God. Jesus says that greater works than He did, will we do. Mary can do whatever God allows her to do.

When Jesus calmed the raging sea, the disciples said, “What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?” Mary is not God to command the sea, Jesus is. Line 8 of this song, above, says, “Gifts of heaven she has given” which for a Catholic means that Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces! This is truly the spirit of idolatry, for by “ONE SPIRIT” we have access to the Father, not two! (Eph.2:18, 4:4, I Cor.12:13)

No, but Mary does not have to be God to do great works, any more than the Apostles are God. All the great works and mediation of His grace we do by His power, not ours.

 

[guanophore]

As you may recall from the debate, the Catholic Church teaches that all graces flow through Mary; therefore, she is present in all the sacraments. That means, if a Christian attends mass or prays with a Catholic, he must join with the spirit of idolatry, who claims to be able to give the grace that God alone can give.

I am sure it must seem this way to you, since you obviously don’t understand how it is that we can become partakers of His divine nature. Sharing in His grace does not make us creatures become a Source of the grace.

Now we have Mary taking the place of the Holy Spirit! What blasphemy!

Since you do not understand what it means, I can understand your reaction. :yup:

What more proof do we need that the Roman church has given to Mary the attributes that belong to God alone?

You will need to “prove” that all the Churches founded by Apostles do the same, even those who are not in union with “Rome”, you will need to realize that the Catholic Church is not “Roman”, and you will need to understand that the reason Jesus came was to infuse us with His attributes. You have a lot of work to do.

Paul Hallinan, in 1964 said that devotions and prayers to Mary were so exaggerated that they were a “blasphemy to the Son, an embarrassment to the memory of the mother and a pathetic deviation”.

If he feels this way, then he should not use them. They are not required.

There is a Catholic organization called “Legion of Mary” which has an “Apostolic Blessing” from Pope John XXIII, and from Pope Pius XI, “We give a very special blessing to this beautiful and holy work - the Legion of Mary.” On page 225 of their book, “Legion of Mary”, we read:

“Put thy feet into her fetters, and thy neck into her chains. Bow down thy shoulder and bear her; and be not grieved with her bonds. Come to her with all thy mind; and keep her ways with all thy power…Then shall her fetters be a strong defence for thee, and a firm foundation, and her chain a robe of glory. For in her is the beauty of life: and her bonds are a healthful binding. - Ecclesiasticus vi, 25-31, applied to Our Lady by the Church. Applicable by Legionaries to the Legion system and especially to the meetings.”

This is not part of the Teaching of the Church. you are grasping at straws, pulling out examples of extreme private devotion, and trying to say that it is “common” or that these practices are part of Catholic doctrine. This is false.

But, Jesus says, “Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden [to overburden with ceremony] and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.” (Matt.11:28-30)

You seem to be laboring under the misunderstanding that prayer and devotion to Mary is separated from Jesus yoke. On the contrary, she always instructs the faithful “do whatever He tells you”.

A Catholic reading this quote from Legion of Mary would find nothing offensive, but a Christian’s mind would be flooded with Scriptures rebuking such powers as belonging to anyone but God.

You are making the same mistake again, Mike, implying that Catholics are not Christians. This kind of expression is offensive.

There are plenty of Catholics who are not comfortable with Mariology, the writings of Ligouri or the Legion of Mary. These are private devotions, and are not required of Cathlics.

I do agree with you, though, that many anti-Catholic Christians have their minds flooded with scriptures rebuking Catholic teaching.

A Christian would believe that he should go to God, for God Himself has said:

“For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?” (Deut.4:7)

.

You seem to think that asking the saints to pray for us means we are not “going to God”. Too bad for anyone who might ever ask you for your prayers!

 

[guanophore]

As you may recall from the debate, the Catholic Church teaches that all graces flow through Mary; therefore, she is present in all the sacraments. That means, if a Christian attends mass or prays with a Catholic, he must join with the spirit of idolatry, who claims to be able to give the grace that God alone can give.

I am sure it must seem this way to you, since you obviously don’t understand how it is that we can become partakers of His divine nature. Sharing in His grace does not make us creatures become a Source of the grace.

Now we have Mary taking the place of the Holy Spirit! What blasphemy!

Since you do not understand what it means, I can understand your reaction. :yup:

What more proof do we need that the Roman church has given to Mary the attributes that belong to God alone?

You will need to “prove” that all the Churches founded by Apostles do the same, even those who are not in union with “Rome”, you will need to realize that the Catholic Church is not “Roman”, and you will need to understand that the reason Jesus came was to infuse us with His attributes. You have a lot of work to do.

Paul Hallinan, in 1964 said that devotions and prayers to Mary were so exaggerated that they were a “blasphemy to the Son, an embarrassment to the memory of the mother and a pathetic deviation”.

If he feels this way, then he should not use them. They are not required.

There is a Catholic organization called “Legion of Mary” which has an “Apostolic Blessing” from Pope John XXIII, and from Pope Pius XI, “We give a very special blessing to this beautiful and holy work - the Legion of Mary.” On page 225 of their book, “Legion of Mary”, we read:

“Put thy feet into her fetters, and thy neck into her chains. Bow down thy shoulder and bear her; and be not grieved with her bonds. Come to her with all thy mind; and keep her ways with all thy power…Then shall her fetters be a strong defence for thee, and a firm foundation, and her chain a robe of glory. For in her is the beauty of life: and her bonds are a healthful binding. - Ecclesiasticus vi, 25-31, applied to Our Lady by the Church. Applicable by Legionaries to the Legion system and especially to the meetings.”

This is not part of the Teaching of the Church. you are grasping at straws, pulling out examples of extreme private devotion, and trying to say that it is “common” or that these practices are part of Catholic doctrine. This is false.

But, Jesus says, “Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden [to overburden with ceremony] and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.” (Matt.11:28-30)

You seem to be laboring under the misunderstanding that prayer and devotion to Mary is separated from Jesus yoke. On the contrary, she always instructs the faithful “do whatever He tells you”.

A Catholic reading this quote from Legion of Mary would find nothing offensive, but a Christian’s mind would be flooded with Scriptures rebuking such powers as belonging to anyone but God.

You are making the same mistake again, Mike, implying that Catholics are not Christians. This kind of expression is offensive.

There are plenty of Catholics who are not comfortable with Mariology, the writings of Ligouri or the Legion of Mary. These are private devotions, and are not required of Cathlics.

I do agree with you, though, that many anti-Catholic Christians have their minds flooded with scriptures rebuking Catholic teaching.

A Christian would believe that he should go to God, for God Himself has said:

“For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?” (Deut.4:7)

You seem to think that asking the saints to pray for us means we are not “going to God”. Too bad for anyone who might ever ask you for your prayers!

 

[guanophore]

This is flawed logic.  You use the logic to justify that Mary is the mother of God, but then you do the opposite to say she is not the mother of the Father or Holy Spirit, but you have to be consistent then.  But if you follow this logic, then you can say that Mary is mother of all 3 parts of the trinity.

No. Besides, the fact that Mary is the Mother of God defies logic in all aspects. It is a Divine Mystery, and is accepted as an article of faith, not because it makes any logical sense. That is like saying that logic can explain why Jesus had to die for our sins.

I suggest you make a study of the early heresies, including Nestorianism and Arianism. That will help you understand the “logic” such as it is. She the mother of Jesus, who is the Son of God. This is why the Council of Ephesus gave her the title “Theotokos”.

Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. therefore Mary is the mother God.  SInce Mary is the mother of God, and God is the Father, then Mary is the mother of the Father (uh oh, I used the same logic to prove that Mary is the mother of the Jesus).  And since Mary is the mother of God, and God is the Holy Spirit, then Mary is the mother of the Holy Spirit.(Oh no).  Where does it stop.  :rolleyes:

When you just accept that the Trinity cannot be comprehended by human logic, and that the incarnation is a profound mystery.

You see the logic is flawed to begin with. if you make an assumption one way, you have to make it all the way, or else the theory is flawed.

I don’t think it is flawed, but it is certainly insufficient. It is not possible to grasp the ineffible nature of God by “logic”. It is our faith seeking understanding that allows us to grow in the mystery.

 You are using Mathematical Induction  (even though you do not know you are).  And this proof fails cause you have to prove it for case 1 and case n+1.

Well, I quite agree. The Triune God far transcends any mathematical induction.

Mary was the mother of Jesus on earth, but not the mother of God.

You have just restated an early heresy. Congratulations. Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it.

 

[guanophore]

Well, I don’t think that we beleive the same thing at all. You seem to think that when the spirit or soul as you put it, returns to God is lucid and concious of it’s surroundings.

As much as God allows, certainly. Do you think that Samuel was not lucid and conscious of what was going on here on earth? Do you think that Moses and Elijah did not know what was going on?

Consider these vs.

If you are willing to be honest, Richard, you will see that all the verses you posted are referring to persons who go to the grave without faith. Of these, Christ said “they are condemned already, because they did not believe”. The same passages also refer to those who will live eternally because of faith.

He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You know neither the scriptures or the power of God.

These vs. clearly show that when you die, your thought process stops, the dead know not anything, they neither love nor hate nor envy, they remain in the tomb, they praise not God, they are silent.

Indeed this may be the state of those who die without faith.It does not apply to those that do, however.

Now you may think that our respective veiws on the state of the dead are very close and the difference between the two veiws is negligible. I would have to disagree with that also. Stop and think about it a minute (or two). The Catholic church and most other churches teach that when you die you receive your just reward of either eternal life in heaven with God or eternal life in an everlasting place of torpoment with Satan and his minions. The idea of God a God who “is love” 1 John 4:8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love, tormenting His beloved creation for all eternity is just ludicrous.

God desires that all be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. However, out of His Love He created us in freedom. He will not force us to remain in His presence if we do not wish to be there.

Rev.21:3,4 says: 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. It is impossible for these vs. to be true, along side the idea of souls writhing in agony in an eternally burning hell.

No, it is not impossible. That is the same as saying that Lucifer does not now exist, because God exists.

Also the Catholic church teaches Mary is in heaven and they pray to her along with the saints whom they also beleive are in heaven. Matt.24:4&5 says: 4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

What does one thing have to do with the other? Are you laboring under the misunderstanding that we think Mary and the saints are “Christ’s”? To participate in salvation does not make us into God. We become partakers of His nature, not his identity.

There have been apparations of Mary throughout the world. She usually gives some message supposedly to the world. To use Jesus’ own words placido “Take heed that no man deceive you.” I beleive we are living in the world’s end time and this idea of the dead comming back to give messages to the living is going to come into prominence. Be ye not deceived placido.

I agree with you. 'The dead" cannot come back and give messages. Only the living can do that. Do you think that Jesus was deceived by talking to Moses and Elijah? Have you never wondered why He went to such trouble to make sure that the disciples saw Him? He could have done this alone. In fact, He may have done it often when He was alone.

 

[guanophore]

1.) I don’t understand where this idea comes from that Jesus exalted her (aside from the commandmant of “Honor your mother and father”). Is this also Catholic tradition or is it mentioned in scripture somewhere?

It is in both Sacred Tradition and in scripture.

Luke 1:46-55
46 And Mary said,
“My soul magnifies the Lord, 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; 49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me,and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation. 51 He has shown strength with his arm,he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts, 52 he has put down the mighty from their thrones,and exalted those of low degree; 53 he has filled the hungry with good things,and the rich he has sent empty away. 54 He has helped his servant Israel,in remembrance of his mercy, 55 as he spoke to our fathers,to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.”

Mary is of very lowly estate, yet God exalted her by choosing her to bear His only son. All generations will call her blessed, because He has done great things for her.

The angel also greets Mary not by her name, but by the title “Full of Grace”.

Elizabeth also recognizes the exalted state of Mary, saying Luke 1:43-44
43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

2.) Does Jesus expect us to honor his mother? Again, I don’t know where this idea comes from (Church tradition? Scripture?).

Yes, of course! If we are His brethren, then we can embrace His mother as our own. Do you think He did not keep the commandments?

I know in Luke 11:27-28 there is a woman in the crowd who feels the desire to bless his mother: “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you!” she calls out. And Jesus replies “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Blessed rather. (Now that’s the NIV version, although it looks like most protestants translations word it like that, from what I’m seeing… And it looks like that’s how the New American Bible words it as well…

The best way to understand this is “blessed even more, rather”. She was blessed to bear the Son, indeed, scripture tells us that all generations will call her blessed for this. But EVEN MORE RATHER is she blessed because of her obedience. She is blessed because she heard the word of God from the angel, and responded with humility and acceptance. That is why she is held up as a model of obedient faith to us.

Now I’m not saying Jesus is saying “Ignore my mother!” or “don’t be nice to her”, but he is getting their focus back on target. Mary is great, sure, but I don’t see any hint of extra devotion or attention.

Do you really believe that, during the years between when He was 12 and 30, he was not constantly devoted to her?

She should be loved and respected, sure, like any other human being.  That the impression I'm left with.

Yes, and also loved and respected in a way that no other human being ever has been, or can be. She is Theotokos.

3.) I don’t understand this Queen of Heaven idea. It’s interesting to learn that “Mothers of all the kings in the Davidic line of kings are always called queens”; could you please send me a source?

In
1 Kings 2:19-20 there is a story about the relationship between the king and his mother.

19 So Bathshe’ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni’jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right.

The mother is queen by virtue of her son’s office, not of herself.

In the Davidic Kingdom, the office of the Queen mother was powerful. There is even a story about one of the Queen Mother’s being deposed from office because of her idolatry.

1 Kings 15:13
13 He also removed Ma’acah his mother from being queen mother because she had an abominable image made for Ashe’rah;

obviously she was still his mother, but she no longer could function in an official capacity in the kingdom with the authority that was given to the queen mother.

 

[guanophore]

I have often heard Catholics say “Mary always points to Christ”, yet this says “the Holy Spirit or Christ leads to Mary.” That’s what is so confusing to me (although I understand what you mean, about people “not seeing her as she is.”).

Mary is in complete unity with God, as we hope we will all someday be.

I just don't understand why it seems people *need *Mary (and I mean that in no disrespect).  If you have Christ is that not enough?

If it were, then Jesus would have sprung up out of the earth fully grown. He chose to come through Mary, to be breast fed by her, to allow her to change His diapers, teach him everything, and clean his skinned knees. Maybe we don’t understand why we need a mother, but Jesus knows best. When He gave her to the Church, He had His reasons.

Do Catholics *have *to embrace Mary with everything the Church teaches about her (Assumption, Stayed a Virgin…forgive me, I don’t know the proper doctrine name for this…, Queen of Heaven, etc.)? Is a part of being Catholic tied into Mary’s role, especially about issues that the Bible is silent on? (ex/ the Assumption; maybe she was “swept up into Heaven” so to speak, but maybe she died a natural death. The bible itself mentions neither).

Catholics are bound to accept all that God has revealed about HImself to the Church, whether it is found in Sacred Tradition or Scripture.

 

[SHW]

I’m afraid that doesn’t quite work with John 14:2In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This says that Jesus will receive us when He comes again, not at death.

Who will meet you at your death? Jesus will meet me at my death.

 

[SHW]

To me, Mary leads no one nowhere if we have not first been led to her by the Holy Spirit or Christ. I met Mary through Jesus when He introduced her to me. Before that the Holy Spirit opened my heart to believing in Christ.
There are people who have Mary as part of their new age spirituality. These people do not always become Christians.
If you dont see Mary through and by the Holy Spirit, you dont see her as she is. So I think your words, which are widely used among Catholics, should be taken with moderation.

Peace.

No one can come to God unless the God draws him/her to Him. God works in many ways to draw people to Himself since people are individuals and respond differently. If some persons especially need a maternal influence, then He can ask His mother to help those persons draw themselves to Him through her.

The fact that New Age persons may misuse Mary’s sublime dignity in their own spirituality does not detract from her own worth in the eyes of God. She is who she is: the Mother of God. I give her the honor that Jesus desires of me. She is queen of heaven and earth since her Son Jesus is King of heaven and earth.

 

[SHW]

This is flawed logic. You use the logic to justify that Mary is the mother of God, but then you do the opposite to say she is not the mother of the Father or Holy Spirit, but you have to be consistent then. But if you follow this logic, then you can say that Mary is mother of all 3 parts of the trinity.

Jesus is God and Mary is the mother of Jesus. therefore Mary is the mother God. SInce Mary is the mother of God, and God is the Father, then Mary is the mother of the Father (uh oh, I used the same logic to prove that Mary is the mother of the Jesus). And since Mary is the mother of God, and God is the Holy Spirit, then Mary is the mother of the Holy Spirit.(Oh no). Where does it stop.

You see the logic is flawed to begin with. if you make an assumption one way, you have to make it all the way, or else the theory is flawed. You are using Mathematical Induction (even though you do not know you are). And this proof fails cause you have to prove it for case 1 and case n+1.

Mary was the mother of Jesus on earth, but not the mother of God.

Mathematical induction, huh?

Is Jesus God? Yes! Is Mary His mother? Yes! Then, Mary is the Mother of God. Simple. However, Jesus is only one of the persons in this one God and there are two more persons in this one God and she is not the mother of them.

There are three persons in one God. Think of this: There are three persons in one family. There is a father and a mother and a child in this one family. One family, three persons in this one family. The child is not the mother of the mother in this one family. The father is the father of the child and the mother is the mother of the child. Three different persons with three different relationships to each other, but still only one family.

There is one God. There are three persons in this one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Mary is the mother of the Incarnate Son, and since He is God, she is therefore called the mother of God even though she is not the mother of God the Father nor the mother of God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is only one person and He is God and Mary is definitely His mother. Jesus has her DNA in His body. This makes Mary the mother of God the Son.

 

[Bill_Pick]

So is this person saying that Jesus is NOT God .May be they do not believe in the Trinity.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Who will meet you at your death? Jesus will meet me at my death.

After you die the next thing you will be concious of is Jesus comming in the clouds of glory. And you will either rise to meet Him in the air or be condemned to partake in the second death. This is what the bible teaches.

 

[SHW]

After you die the next thing you will be concious of is Jesus comming in the clouds of glory. And you will either rise to meet Him in the air or be condemned to partake in the second death. This is what the bible teaches.

Not me. I will meet Jesus when I die and I will be judged immediately and sent either to hell, purgatory, or heaven. At the Judgment on that Last Day, I will be judged again, as will all other persons, at the throne of God. I will then become a permanent member of either hell or heaven for eternity. If I was in hell before the General Judgment on the Last Day, then I will return there. If I was either in heaven or purgatory before the Judgment, then I will be in heaven for eternity.

Hebrews 9:26-28
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

There are two judgments. My individual (particular) judgment occurs immediately after I die, and my judgment at the General Judgment of all mankind is on the Last Day.

My spirit does not sleep when I die. If I am numbered among the saints, then I may even become one of the “cloud of witnesses” like Noah and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob were to the early Christians.

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

My body is raised on the Last Day, but my spirit was never buried.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Not me. I will meet Jesus when I die and I will be judged immediately and sent either to hell, purgatory, or heaven.

What’s purgatory? Where do you find that in the bible?

At the Judgment on that Last Day, I will be judged again, as will all other persons, at the throne of God. I will then become a permanent member of either hell or heaven for eternity.If I was in hell before the General Judgment on the Last Day, then I will return there. If I was either in heaven or purgatory before the Judgment, then I will be in heaven for eternity.

So at the second judgement purgatory disappears and if you are in heaven or hell why are you sent there again?

Hebrews 9:26-28
He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

This doesn’t say we are judged immediatly after death. John11:11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus Himself calls death sleep.

John 6:54
Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

We are raised up from the sleep of the grave.

There are two judgments. My individual (particular) judgment occurs immediately after I die, and my judgment at the General Judgment of all mankind is on the Last Day.

My spirit does not sleep when I die. If I am numbered among the saints, then I may even become one of the “cloud of witnesses” like Noah and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob were to the early Christians.

Jesus must be wrong then huh?

Hebrews 12:1
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

My body is raised on the Last Day, but my spirit was never buried.

I never said your spirit is buried. It goes back to God who gave it. Ecc12;7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Richard, Its in the part of the Bible that you do not have remember you are short a few bookbs God bless You and have a great day