Jesus Christ is our only 'mediator' as stated by St. Paul

[SHW]

What’s purgatory? Where do you find that in the bible?

Purgatory is not named purgatory in the Bible, just like Trinity is not named Trinity in the Bible. We can see both of them described in Scripture, however.

Matthew 5:25-26
Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 **If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. **

His work is burned up, yet he is saved. He cannot be in heaven because he is going through fire. He cannot be in hell because he is saved. So, there has to be another place and we call it purgatory because our venial sins are purged so that we can enter heaven perfect and holy. Nothing imperfect can enter heaven.

The following is not in the Protestant Bible since they took it out.
2 Machabees 12
46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

The Jews still today pray for their dead: Kaddish is the name for this prayer.

So at the second judgement purgatory disappears and if you are in heaven or hell why are you sent there again?

The General Judgment (Great White Throne Judgment) is for “everyone ever born” to see how God’s will worked with our own wills to fulfill His purpose.

This doesn’t say we are judged immediatly after death. John11:11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus Himself calls death sleep.

It doesn’t say that we are not judged immediately after death. Death is also called “sleep” in the East. (cf. Acts 7:59-60, Acts 8:1)

The Apostles thought that Jesus meant that Lazarus was only sleeping like when we are getting a good night’s rest. Jesus informed them that He meant that Lazarus was actually dead and that He was going to raise him from the dead.

We are raised up from the sleep of the grave.

Our bodies only (not our spirits) are raised from the dead on the Last Day. When our bodies become too damaged by illness, accident, or old age, then our spirits leave our bodies and return to God. Our bodies are then buried in graves, etc., but our bodies will be raised and made new on the Last Day and be rejoined to our spirits forever. (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

Jesus must be wrong then huh?

Jesus is never wrong. We are wrong when we misinterpret His Words and we can also be wrong because we do not know the correct oral Apostolic teaching on these issues.

I never said your spirit is buried. It goes back to God who gave it. Ecc12;7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I am glad we agree on this. So, in your opinion, are all these “sleeping” or “unconscious” spirits stacked in columns or are they all just laid side by side in rows until the Last Day?

We Catholics, however, know that the dead are not asleep, they are instead conscious of what is going on and an example of this is shown in Scripture:

Revelation 6:9-10
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

The “cloud of witnesses” in Hebrews 12 are the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 and Paul is stating that they are witnessing the faith of him and the other early Christians. (cf. Hebrews 12:1, Hebrews 11)

 

[Jeeda555]

Jeeda, when I say we dont know Mary except through the Holy Spirit, I mean that we know her as the mother of our Lord through the Holy Spirit. As the mother of our Lord we bless her in all generations because God has blessed her so mightily.
The Holy Spirit does not “point” to Mary. It points to Christ and only then to Mary. Because if it was not for Christ Mary would just be another woman in human history.
So as you can hear I dont agree with the Catholics who say Mary always points to Jesus… I mean i understand what they mean, because this was the will of Mary when she lived: to point to Jesus, and it continues to be her wish, but we cannot understand Mary, or John or Paul for that matter, if we dont first have faith through the Spirit of God. So we always-already encountered Him.

Jeeda, what do you mean when you say “need”? I dont need Mary in the sense that I need Christ. I dont even need Mary in the sense that I need my own mother on earth, because my own mother - a protestant and a great mother by the way - gave me love and milk when I was small.
So what role has Mary to me. Well. I had a tough time with her for a long time. The Church teaches that a Catholic need not pray to her in order to be a good Catholic, but it has dogma that we must believe and so on and so forth and I felt many of my Catholic brethren went overboard ( I still do, but I confess that I may simply not understand them). One day I said: I wont pray to Mary anymore about anything. I am too afraid to cross the line. That night Jesus spoke to me and said: Dont worry about my mother. Delight in her because she has brought me so much joy.
It made me weep… you see, because I love Jesus… and she brought him joy and it changed my whole perspective.
I still only follow my conscience of course. There are prayers and songs that I dont pray to Mary when others do. And I am still Catholic. the dogma have been explained sufficiently to me. I believe Mary is what the Church teaches. Christ confirmed this to me directly. Thats another wonderful story.

As my Lord, yes, Christ is enough. But it gives colour to my life to have a church family in the seen and unseen world. Its like… I love God, but I would be sad if I had no friends in the world.
I am particularly fond of Padre Pio. He inspired me. I dont pray much to saints, but I am happy they were and are here.
Mary might have died or slept in, but we do believe she has been bodily resurrected… like Elijah

At any rate… dont sweat this. What matters is you have a personal relationship with Christ and that you trust in Him. He is the foundation, the Head… so rest in Him.

Peace and Shalom

Thank makes SO much sense, thank you very much for your kindness. I guess when I said “need”, I meant she is so talked about and so studied. And I really do think she’s important. It’s just, LOL!!, I know it’ll take me a lifetime to get where i need to be with Christ, so to take the time to study the life of Mary, at first, seemed to be off track.

Yet even as I type this, I know I’ve studied the lives of other biblical characters: Moses, Abraham, Hagar, Ruth, etc. So how is studying and appreciating Mary’s role any different? I see what you mean.

And “having a saint you’re fond of”, well, that I DO understand. I mean, what protestant doesn’t have a favorite preacher? A favorite teacher? A favorite missionary or historical Christian king/prince/warrior/etc.? And the lives of the saints are very fascinating indeed!

 

[Jeeda555]

Jesus has appeared to numerous saints and still he appears to people all over the world. I know four women who simultaneously had the same vision of Jesus. I know at least two others who saw Him ( I mean personally…all of these that I mention)… and many who heard him, had visions… dreams. I also know two that saw the Virgin Mary. I know also know one that saw an angel.
The Church does not teach that you have to believe in Marian apparitions. These are part of the private revelations department.
I for instance believe that Medjugorje is an authentic site for Marian apparitions but some of the others have elements that seem odd to me, so I choose not to deal with them and I am free not to.
Will you honestly tell me you are never inspired by other Christian brothers or sisters who in remarkable ways follow/ed Christ?
I know many that I look up to besides Christ who is in a category for Himself high high above every creature…
For instance I have read quite a few books by pentecostal evangelists and I really am inspired by their lives… they are close in history and powerful in faith.

Peace to you.

Oh no no! I agree indeed that many Christian’s live inspire and such, absolutely.

I guess for me, at the moment (so it’s just a personal thing) with other inspiring Christians, both today and in history, to me they seem so human. So ordinary, and I love that. The little I know about the lives of the Saints, missionaries, etc., their lives are so interesting and yet just like us too. And I know there are mysteries/legends that surround some of them, but for the most part them just seem so human, like me.

But Mary…there is so much dogma about her, and so much mystery; to me she appears almost…what’s the word?..not “divine”, but higher than human, if you will. “Larger than life”.

To explain it better, it’s kind of like comparing an Alexander the Great or Abraham Lincoln to King Arthur or Robin Hood. Alexander the Great and Abraham Lincoln are much more rooted in history; we have a much better idea of who they were and what their lives were like. But King Arthur and Robin Hood…while many historians believe there were such figures in history, there are so many legends and myths that surround them that it seems almost impossible to sort it all out. They seem so “far away”.

I realize this is probably just a personal thing and where I’m at at the moment. And God is always enlightening me, so I’m sure down the road I’ll understand these matters more.

 

[GraceDK]

Oh no no! I agree indeed that many Christian’s live inspire and such, absolutely.

I guess for me, at the moment (so it’s just a personal thing) with other inspiring Christians, both today and in history, to me they seem so human. So ordinary, and I love that. The little I know about the lives of the Saints, missionaries, etc., their lives are so interesting and yet just like us too. And I know there are mysteries/legends that surround some of them, but for the most part them just seem so human, like me.

But Mary…there is so much dogma about her, and so much mystery; to me she appears almost…what’s the word?..not “divine”, but higher than human, if you will. “Larger than life”.

To explain it better, it’s kind of like comparing an Alexander the Great or Abraham Lincoln to King Arthur or Robin Hood. Alexander the Great and Abraham Lincoln are much more rooted in history; we have a much better idea of who they were and what their lives were like. But King Arthur and Robin Hood…while many historians believe there were such figures in history, there are so many legends and myths that surround them that it seems almost impossible to sort it all out. They seem so “far away”.

I realize this is probably just a personal thing and where I’m at at the moment. And God is always enlightening me, so I’m sure down the road I’ll understand these matters more.

Dear sister in Jesus.

I would say… Yes absolutely, you can look at Jesus all your life… even all eternity, and never tire of looking at Him.
( Dare I send you one of my favourite songs? youtube.com/watch?v=QzWT2tLxlZo&feature=related )
The truth is we don’t know much about Mary. We know she is gentle and lovely and had great faith and humility. I also want to point you to revelation 12. Read it, ponder it and pray over it, if its important to you to understand what we think about Mary.
The Bible says: “We will be like Him for we will see Him as He is”. The saints in heaven reflect the light of God. Imagine the bliss of encountering a saint from heaven…
Like… Padre Pio. If you want to see someone who is human but whose life is so extraordinary, try and get the movie: “Padre Pio, Miracle Man”. Its the movie that has meant most to me of all movies. It’s truly amazing. This is what it means to be set apart… most modern people can hardly fathom how Christian life can be… how a man or woman may die so much from their EGO that they reflect God so much in this life already.
It was written about the the orthodox Saint Seraphim that his face even shone… like Stafanus’ face also did… Isn’t it wonderful?
To view the greatness of what God can do with a person that allows Him, is so beneficial to ones own faith. I admit,… I need to read books from saints and thinkers from different Christian traditions, especially contemporaries. I need this to nourish me… to see its not only Christ but also His followers that live in His promises.
I dont read books about Mary. But if Mary wrote a book herself I would read it. I liked very much to read first hand testimonies from Saint Terese of Lisieux and Teresa of Avila, or the dairy of Faustyna, or former muslim now Christian Bilquis Sheikh (evangelical) or David du Plessis (Pentecostal), or the desert fathers (orthodox) … these are about real struggles and real passions and real miracles in real peoples lives.
Mary said in Cana: “do everything He tells you”. if you love Christ, then you need not worry about whether you are close enough to Mary. We are one with her in spirit when we love her Son.

I feel that you are humble and good Jeeda.
Peace be with you.

Grace

 

[Jeeda555]

It is in both Sacred Tradition and in scripture.

Luke 1:46-55
46 And Mary said,
“My soul magnifies the Lord, 47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; 49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me,and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation. 51 He has shown strength with his arm,he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts, 52 he has put down the mighty from their thrones,and exalted those of low degree; 53 he has filled the hungry with good things,and the rich he has sent empty away. 54 He has helped his servant Israel,in remembrance of his mercy, 55 as he spoke to our fathers,to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.”

Mary is of very lowly estate, yet God exalted her by choosing her to bear His only son. All generations will call her blessed, because He has done great things for her.

God chose, yes, but she also excepted the position. And if she hadn’t God would have found someone who had (being all powerful and all ). Of course being God he also *knew *she would except.

In the end, she was obedient. But God honors all who obey, and he doesn’t play favorites either. God honored Abraham for his obedience of leaving Ur. God honored Moses’ obedience to freeing his people. God honored Mary for choosing to bear Jesus. I realize Mary’s case is a unique one. I don’t know, I just am not fully convinced yet.

The angel also greets Mary not by her name, but by the title “Full of Grace”.

Elizabeth also recognizes the exalted state of Mary, saying Luke 1:43-44
43 And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Yes, of course! If we are His brethren, then we can embrace His mother as our own. Do you think He did not keep the commandments?

Embrace his mother as our own? In what way? To just love her? I love her now, and I love all my brothers and sisters.

Now I know there’s the scripture where Jesus on the cross gave his mother to…John? The Church? I know Protestants and Catholics have always disagreed on that. Protestants believe it was to John, a literal “Take care of her for me”. Catholics believe it was in the “She is your Mother” sense. To be honest, I don’t know which is correct. I tend to lean to the literal “Take care of her John”, but I tend to translate a little more literal.

And I just thought of another thing…Scripture states that, when one dies, the ties that we knew on earth won’t be the same as in heaven (for instance, our husbands/wives will not have that roll in heaven). I don’t know about mothers or fathers…but I’m lead to believe that those things won’t be defined as such, which if that’s the case, then is Mary Jesus’ mother in heaven, or a sister, like me and every human on earth?

I can’t recall if scripture mentioned relationships in general will be diferent in heaven or just the marital relationship…

The best way to understand this is “blessed even more, rather”. She was blessed to bear the Son, indeed, scripture tells us that all generations will call her blessed for this. But EVEN MORE RATHER is she blessed because of her obedience. She is blessed because she heard the word of God from the angel, and responded with humility and acceptance. That is why she is held up as a model of obedient faith to us.

Do you really believe that, during the years between when He was 12 and 30, he was not constantly devoted to her?

She, now the first part I can see, the “blessed even more”, but the second part
But even more rather is *she *blessed". To me it doesn’t look like Jesus is still talking about her, but about *all *believers. Including Mary of course (so he is saying that she is blessed because of her personal obedience to God). But it still sounds like he’s trying to take the focus off of her; not to say he doesn’t think is mother is blessed! It almost looks as if he’s saying “Yes yes, but those who obey are even more blessed!”. You see what I mean?

Yes, and also loved and respected in a way that no other human being ever has been, or can be. She is Theotokos.

Theotokos? What would *possibly *posses you to think I’d know what that word meant?

 

[Jeeda555]

Mary is in complete unity with God, as we hope we will all someday be.

If it were, then Jesus would have sprung up out of the earth fully grown. He chose to come through Mary, to be breast fed by her, to allow her to change His diapers, teach him everything, and clean his skinned knees. Maybe we don’t understand why we need a mother, but Jesus knows best. When He gave her to the Church, He had His reasons.

Again, this is how the Catholic Church interrupts scripture. To me (where I am in my walk at the moment) it looks more like he was talking to John. Of course I could very well be wrong, and if so and if Jesus’ DID give us his mother, then what are we suppose to do with her? (LOL!!!, that sounded awful, but you know what I mean. ). We’re not suppose to worship her. She doesn’t need to be taken care of anymore. Love her? Well, I can do that, no problem. But what else can I do with her that Jesus can’t do? What need could I have that people turn to Mary for that I can’t just waltz over to God and have Him meet that need?

Again, I don’t mean to imply that Mary isn’t important, or that she isn’t blessed (because she is. What an honor! To know the fruit of your womb saved humanity! I mean what “bragging story” could ever top that? ). Of course she is, and I do find it rather sad that there’s this unspoken rule in the Protestant world that “you can only mention Mary around Christmas time, and if a Christmas pagent is involved” (LOL!!!). It’s sad really. but again, Mary obeyed, as hundreds of God-fearing people did on the bible, as millions did in history.

Catholics are bound to accept all that God has revealed about HImself to the Church, whether it is found in Sacred Tradition or Scripture.

I read this really good book called “The Idiot’s Guide to Understanding Catholism” a while back (good book. Nice read for gleaning basics) and the author mentioned how it’s a belief with non-Catholics that Catholics don’t think for themselves, that they just believe whatever their told, and the author pointed out how that’s not true. Catholics are called to use their God-given commen sense with anything presented to them,

But if that’s true (and maybe it’s not? If not, please correct me. I realize this is one source) then how *can *one use common sense, if you’re just suppose to believe what the Church teaches? (and please know I’m not saying Catholics don’t use common sense! I just don’t understand where there’s room to question if the church DOES ever pass something that’s rather unbiblical. Hasn’t that happened in Church History before?)

Now my background is Congregationalist, which beliefs system, VERY long story short, is pretty much “Believe the basics, test everything else”. Now before I’m labeled as a New Agey feel-goodery believer or what have you, know that that is a *gross *understatement. But it’s the easiest way to explain it.

So, you have to believe the basics: Jesus was the Son of God, Jesus died for your sins, Jesus is a part of the trinity, Jesus was without sin, believe in Jesus and you will be saved, love everyone, obey God, etc. But everything else? Look to scripture. Some of what Scripture says is plain as day (ex/ don’t kill. have pure thoughts. etc.). But the not-so-plain stuff? DID God flood the entire world or just the known world? DID Mary remain a Virgin or did Jesus have other brothers and sisters? Do we rapture up BEFORE the great tribulation or after? We can pray about it, discuss it, but in the end, who knows until we meet God face-to-face? And that’s okay! There is nothing wrong with questioned and wondering and discussing, so long as you believe in Jesus, keep the commandments, and continue walking with God. Because in the end we’ll find out for sure.

(And know that I’m not saying Congregationalism is the “right faith” or the “true church”, and all those who don’t worship that way will go to hell. I truly believe denominations are just human’s pathetic attempt to understand God and His awesome ways. Love Jesus, love each other, and you have the right idea.)

So I know Church Tradition is a big part in the Catholic faith, one I have yet to understand, and I think until I do things that fall into this realm won’t make sense to me.

 

[Jeeda555]

No one can come to God unless the God draws him/her to Him. God works in many ways to draw people to Himself since people are individuals and respond differently. If some persons especially need a maternal influence, then He can ask His mother to help those persons draw themselves to Him through her.

Oh, now I can understand that! That makes a lot of sense.

The fact that New Age persons may misuse Mary’s sublime dignity in their own spirituality does not detract from her own worth in the eyes of God. She is who she is: the Mother of God. I give her the honor that Jesus desires of me. She is queen of heaven and earth since her Son Jesus is King of heaven and earth.

What’s interesting about that is if New Age (or other religions) misuse Mary, certaintly the devil could. When the devil is going to trick someone, he’s not going to use something that’s obvious to us. I mean isn’t it interesting that the bible says that during the end times, if God had extended them, *everyone *would fall away? That no one could resist the lies of the devil? That just boggles my mind? What lies will the devil tell that would lead the majority of people astray? What would happen in those “extended years” (if God allowed it) that would cause EVERYONE to fall away? I mean it makes you really *look *at everything around you. Things that look good on the surface really make you wonder.

And I’ve often thought “If I was the devil, if I was going to lead masses and masses of people astray, how would I do it?” (Of course I’m just a human; I don’t posses Satan’s slyness and tricks). And I keep thinking “Mary!” What a way to really get the publics attention.

Now again, I’m not saying that everything Mary up to this point is “the devil”; absolutely not! But if the devil can’t appear as Jesus himself (which I’m not sure he can, but I know he can’t say “Jesus is Lord!”) and he can appear as something as comforting and amazing as an angel of light, then why not Mary?

It just makes me wonder… Which probably also explains my leariness of “all things Mary”. Some my find it silly, but the devil is very real to me. And unfortunately I really am tricked so easily.

 

[Jeeda555]

Dear sister in Jesus.

I would say… Yes absolutely, you can look at Jesus all your life… even all eternity, and never tire of looking at Him.
( Dare I send you one of my favourite songs? youtube.com/watch?v=QzWT2tLxlZo&feature=related )

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh! How beautiful!!! And I’ve never heard it before! Very nice!

Here’s one right back at ya! (love this version too!) ------> youtube.com/watch?v=r6wMB-AWLC4

The truth is we don’t know much about Mary. We know she is gentle and lovely and had great faith and humility. I also want to point you to revelation 12. Read it, ponder it and pray over it, if its important to you to understand what we think about Mary.
The Bible says: “We will be like Him for we will see Him as He is”. The saints in heaven reflect the light of God. Imagine the bliss of encountering a saint from heaven…
Like… Padre Pio. If you want to see someone who is human but whose life is so extraordinary, try and get the movie: “Padre Pio, Miracle Man”. Its the movie that has meant most to me of all movies. It’s truly amazing. This is what it means to be set apart… most modern people can hardly fathom how Christian life can be… how a man or woman may die so much from their EGO that they reflect God so much in this life already.
It was written about the the orthodox Saint Seraphim that his face even shone… like Stafanus’ face also did… Isn’t it wonderful?

I will *definitelly *have to check these titles out!..

To view the greatness of what God can do with a person that allows Him, is so beneficial to ones own faith. I admit,… I need to read books from saints and thinkers from different Christian traditions, especially contemporaries. I need this to nourish me… to see its not only Christ but also His followers that live in His promises.

I know I do too. In fact I have a lot of books on the lives of the saints that I’d LOVE to get too! sigh, so many books, so little time. Have you read anything by C. S. Lewis? He was actually Catholic, to my understanding, although he had a lot of modern ideas, and he never did convert away from Catholism, from what I understand about his life. Also Watchman Nee is rather good, although VERY heavy! I’ll read a page a day and chew on it because it’s just that meaty.

Also, if you really want to be uplifted and inspired by a “saint of today”, my I recommend checking out the charity called Gospel For Asia? My mother introduced this mission to me and it’s one of my absolute favorites. The founder/president K.P. Yohannan has lead SUCH an interesting and God-filled life. I don’t even know what denomination his background is from, although in all honesty I could care less; the fruit of his actions show his love for Christ, and that’s all I care about! And they have sooo many uplifting stories about the work that they’re doing in India and other parts of Asia.

I feel that you are humble and good Jeeda.

LOL!!! Believe me sister, it ain’t me! That’s all Jesus! (And you should see me on a bad day! LOL!!!) Ohhhhhhh, how grateful I am that God is a patient god!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Purgatory is not named purgatory in the Bible, just like Trinity is not named Trinity in the Bible. We can see both of them described in Scripture, however.

Matthew 5:25-26
Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

This passage is similar to Matt18:23-35
23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Now let me ask you. What was due the king from the evil servant. He had already been forgiven his debt in v. 27. The fact is that this is talking about our relationships with one another and how those relationships affect our relationship with God. You will see that the evil servant was handed over “to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.” Well when we are in the hands of the tormentors there is no way for us to pay our debt except with our death. Rom6:23 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So the king did not hand the evil servant over to the tormentors because of the debt previeously owed or because he thought he would be paid for that debt, but because of his lack of compassion and mercy, he himself received the justice he deserved in the first place. That justice was the wages of sin, death.
This is the same principal with Matthew 5:25-26 You cannot pay what is owed when you are in prison. So what is required of you at this point is your death. The theory that sins can be paid for by prayer either ours or others is a fabrication of the CC and is nonsense.
John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.

This quite clearly is talkig about The builers works and not the builder. The fire here talked about is the fire of the judgment of God. Heb.12:29For our God is a consuming fire.
The works withstanding the fire of God or not talks about wether or not those that we witness to (our works) have been told the truth according to the word of God and walk in the righteousness of Christ and can withstand the fire of God or have they been taught error according to the word of man and cannot.

continued

 

[GraceDK]

**Jeeda
Here’s one right back at ya! (love this version too!) ------> youtube.com/watch?v=r6wMB-AWLC4]

I know “In Christ alone”. Heard it many times… but its … too calm for my taste although its pretty!

**I will *definitelly ***have to check these titles out!..

Yes do so… and alse read The Hiding Place by calvinist Corrie Ten Boom. This testimony is so awesome that I used to have it in different versions… now they all disapeared because people borrowed them Corries family hid Jews during the war and her family payed dearly for it.

Once in Nazi Germany a Danish man was prisoner in a KZ-camp. One day an SS officer came into the celler where he and other male prisoners were working. The SS officer beat a Russian man to death because he had stolen a glove in the cold winter. The bunch of men watched helplessly as the poor man was beaten. When he was lying on the floor in his own blood the room lit up… Jesus walked in calmly. He walked over and kneeled beside the man and kissed his face. The Danish prisoner and everyone was seeing this. He later wrote: “…at that moment that stinking celler was the best place in the world to be (…) I could see that the SS officer knew Jesus too”.
The russian man opened his eyes, smiled, and peacefully died. Jesus stood up and walked out. After the war the surviving Danish man wrote down this memory from the war.

**I know I do too. In fact I have a lot of books on the lives of the saints that I’d LOVE to get too! sigh, so many books, so little time. Have you read anything by C. S. Lewis? He was actually Catholic, to my understanding, although he had a lot of modern ideas, and he never did convert away from Catholism, from what I understand about his life. Also Watchman Nee is rather good, although VERY heavy! I’ll read a page a day and chew on it because it’s just that meaty. **

I have read C.S. Lewis with great delight, yes! I immensely enjoyed “The Screwtape Letters” and “The great divorce”. God used the former to dispell certain dark tendencies that had entered my life at the time.
I read these books with a friend, whose conversion to Christianity came about partly because of the book “mere Christianity” by Lewis.
Lewis was no Catholic by the way. He was Anglican

Peace**

 

[GraceDK]

Dear Jeeda.
One more favourite. Not kidding. This and “There is a day” are my favourite ones of all time… whomever I share with, they love them instantly, I have even shared with atheists and muslims that loved these song at first instant

youtube.com/watch?v=__PQjgi32-4

God Bless you

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The following is not in the Protestant Bible since they took it out.
2 Machabees 12
46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

The Jews still today pray for their dead: Kaddish is the name for this prayer.

It was taken out of the bible because it does not coinside with the rest of the bible and therefrore is not inspired Isaiah 8:20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

The Apostles thought that Jesus meant that Lazarus was only sleeping like when we are getting a good night’s rest. Jesus informed them that He meant that Lazarus was actually dead and that He was going to raise him from the dead.

This is exactly what I am saying Lazarus was dead. His body was decaying in the grave. Jn11:39 Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh and his spirit (not soul) had returned to God.

Our bodies only (not our spirits) are raised from the dead on the Last Day. When our bodies become too damaged by illness, accident, or old age, then our spirits leave our bodies and return to God. Our bodies are then buried in graves, etc., but our bodies will be raised and made new on the Last Day and be rejoined to our spirits forever. (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

I don’t know what you are talking about here. First you say only our bodies will be raised. Then you say they will be united with their spirit

Jesus is never wrong. We are wrong when we misinterpret His Words and we can also be wrong because we do not know the correct oral Apostolic teaching on these issues.

There Is no need to misinterpret anything if you submit yourself to the light of the Holy Spirit in Christ. There is no oral teaching necessary. The bible is enough. Jn 5: 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

I am glad we agree on this. So, in your opinion, are all these “sleeping” or “unconscious” spirits stacked in columns or are they all just laid side by side in rows until the Last Day?

I get it that you are being sarcastic here, but I’m not quite sure what your point is. I didn’t offer my opinion, I offered scripture Ecc12:7 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. The spirit of man is the animating life force or breath of God. It is not an entity that is “sleeping” or “unconcious”. It can’t be stacked in columns or laid side by side. The breath of God or spirit simply returns to Him.

We Catholics, however, know that the dead are not asleep, they are instead conscious of what is going on and an example of this is shown in Scripture:

Revelation 6:9-10
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

The book of Rev. is for the most part symbolic. You will notice that these souls cry out from under the altar (doesn’t sound like heaven to me). Well, what’s under the altar, its’ the earth right? or the grave. Consider these vs.
Gen. 4:10And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Ex 29:12 And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar.

The souls of the righteous slain for the testimony of Jesus cry out from the grave

The “cloud of witnesses” in Hebrews 12 are the patriarchs in Hebrews 11 and Paul is stating that they are witnessing the faith of him and the other early Christians. (cf. Hebrews 12:1, Hebrews 11)

Heb12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Notice this says “we also” (along with the Patriarchs of ch 11) are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses. These witnesses are the angels.

 

[SHW]

And I’ve often thought “If I was the devil, if I was going to lead masses and masses of people astray, how would I do it?” (Of course I’m just a human; I don’t posses Satan’s slyness and tricks). And I keep thinking “Mary!” What a way to really get the publics attention.

Now again, I’m not saying that everything Mary up to this point is “the devil”; absolutely not! But if the devil can’t appear as Jesus himself (which I’m not sure he can, but I know he can’t say “Jesus is Lord!”) and he can appear as something as comforting and amazing as an angel of light, then why not Mary?

It just makes me wonder… Which probably also explains my leariness of “all things Mary”. Some my find it silly, but the devil is very real to me. And unfortunately I really am tricked so easily.

You are prudent to be skeptical. I am always skeptical of unapproved apparitions.

When Fatima was approved by the Church as authentic, there were also about 200 other alleged Marian apparitions happening at the same time which were declared by the Church to be not from God and not worthy of belief. So we know who was behind those other 200: Satan.

About Fatima:
loveandmercy.org/loveandmercy/fatima.htm#messages The Church has declared this apparition “worthy of belief,” but does not “require belief” in it since it is a private revelation (not in the Bible).

Many people are enamored with Medjugorje right now, but I believe it is a false Marian apparition (from Satan). Hopefully, the Church will rule with finality from Rome soon. Three different Catholic commissions have already declared that there is “no Supernatural (from God) basis” for these apparitions. In other words, they are false.

If anyone is interested in reading about this “alleged” visitation from Mary in Medjugorje, please see:
tinyurl.com/nerd3u

 

[SHW]

It was taken out of the bible because it does not coinside with the rest of the bible and therefrore is not inspired Isaiah 8:20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

**People will use all kinds of excuses in order to justify their actions. **

This 2 Maccabees book is historical. It proves that Jews did indeed pray for their dead and it also explained the reason for their praying for their dead.

2 Machabees 12
46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. The Jews still pray the Kaddish for their dead. This is fact whether Protestants choose to believe it or not.

The reason for the celebration of Hanukkah is explained in the books of I & II Maccabees only and it is mentioned in no other books in the Bible, yet Jesus went up to Jerusalem to celebrate it! Now, since this celebration does not coincide with any other book in the Bible, why were all the Jews celebrating it? Hanukkah is also called the Feast of the Dedication and the Festival of Lights. (John 10:22-23) The premise that one thing in the Bible must be corroborated by another in the Bible, in order for it to be true or worthwhile, is a false premise as shown by this example. The Jews did not believe in “Scripture Alone.” Jesus did not believe in it either. He recognizes the authority given by God to the Scribes and Pharisees in
Matthew 23:1-3
Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

I don’t know what you are talking about here. First you say only our bodies will be raised. Then you say they will be united with their spirit

Since our spirits are not in the graves with our bodies, then they will have to reunite with our new resurrected bodies at the resurrection, correct?

There Is no need to misinterpret anything if you submit yourself to the light of the Holy Spirit in Christ. There is no oral teaching necessary. The bible is enough. Jn 5: 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

This is speaking of OT Scriptures. There weren’t any NT Scriptures written when this statement was made. Instead, Scripture reveals that we are to adhere to both oral and written traditions of the Church, God’s authority on earth, just as the Scribes and Pharisees were successors of Moses and had His authority on earth.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

Your misinterpretation of Jn. 3:39 proves my point. The Holy Spirit guaranteed no individuals infallible interpretation of Scriptures. Scripture interpretation is the responsibility of the Church, the one founded upon Peter, only. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead His one Church into all truth. He built His Church upon Peter whom He renamed Rock since Peter is to be the rock (representative of Christ the Rock who has now become the Cornerstone) on earth while He is in heaven.

I get it that you are being sarcastic here, but I’m not quite sure what your point is. I didn’t offer my opinion, I offered scripture Ecc12:7 7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. The spirit of man is the animating life force or breath of God. It is not an entity that is “sleeping” or “unconcious”. It can’t be stacked in columns or laid side by side. The breath of God or spirit simply returns to Him.

I am not being sarcastic. I had this very discussion with my own brother. Our spirits do not just disappear into nothingness until our bodies are resurrected. They take up space somewhere after we die. He finally came to the conclusion that they are conscious and serving and adoring God, as Catholics believe, even though he is not Catholic.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

The book of Rev. is for the most part symbolic. You will notice that these souls cry out from under the altar (doesn’t sound like heaven to me). Well, what’s under the altar, its’ the earth right? or the grave. Consider these vs.
Gen. 4:10And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Ex 29:12 And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar.

The souls of the righteous slain for the testimony of Jesus cry out from the grave

I agree that Revelation is symbolic but it also teaches truths. These Scriptures you quoted are figures of speech, etc, but notice that none of the dead are unconscious? They are living beings even though their bodies are dead.

Heb12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Notice this says “we also” (along with the Patriarchs of ch 11) are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses. These witnesses are the angels.

I was careless and used the NKJV on Biblegateway.com in my previous post. I prefer the RSV since it is more accurate for these verses:
Hebrews 11:39-40-12:1
39 And all these (Patriarchs), though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect. 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,

There is no “also” in the original Greek as in “we also” as stated in the NKJV that is posted above. I have just rechecked the Greek words online and the RSV is correct in its translation.

The Patriarchs are the “clouds of witnesses.” Paul is definitely speaking of the Patriarchs as you can surmise from the verses 39 & 40 of Hebrews 11.

 

[SHW]

Now let me ask you. What was due the king from the evil servant. He had already been forgiven his debt in v. 27. The fact is that this is talking about our relationships with one another and how those relationships affect our relationship with God. You will see that the evil servant was handed over “to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.” Well when we are in the hands of the tormentors there is no way for us to pay our debt except with our death. Rom6:23 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So the king did not hand the evil servant over to the tormentors because of the debt previeously owed or because he thought he would be paid for that debt, but because of his lack of compassion and mercy, he himself received the justice he deserved in the first place. That justice was the wages of sin, death.
This is the same principal with Matthew 5:25-26 You cannot pay what is owed when you are in prison. So what is required of you at this point is your death. The theory that sins can be paid for by prayer either ours or others is a fabrication of the CC and is nonsense.
John 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Scripture clearly states:
Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

Unless man repents, he will not be saved. Unless man restores completely what he has stolen or damaged on earth, then he will have to atone for it after death.

Colossians 3:25
But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.

If he does not repay it (atone for his venial sins) on earth, then he must repay it after death in purgatory.

Ezekiel 33:15
if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live (inherit eternal life); he shall not die (be damned).

This quite clearly is talkig about The builers works and not the builder. The fire here talked about is the fire of the judgment of God. Heb.12:29For our God is a consuming fire.
The works withstanding the fire of God or not talks about wether or not those that we witness to (our works) have been told the truth according to the word of God and walk in the righteousness of Christ and can withstand the fire of God or have they been taught error according to the word of man and cannot.

Yes, our God is a consuming fire. To those whose love is perfect (sinless), they pass through this fire unscathed into heaven at their deaths. For those who have venial sins on their souls, they pass into the fires of purgatory until all sin is purged. To those who do not have the Holy Spirit abiding in them at their deaths due to their mortal sins, they are “destroyed” by this fire and sent to hell for eternity.

His judgment of all persons is made known to everyone on Judgment Day. On this Day, God will show all of mankind how His Sovereign Will worked with each person’s free will to accomplish His purpose of salvation for mankind. Those who spurned His grace will be damned for eternity.

Satan and the other fallen angels got cast from heaven when they first disobeyed. They will be bound in hell forever when Jesus commands it. God is now allowing Satan and his cohorts to torment us in order to test us to see if we will remain faithful to Him through tribulations. (Hebrews 10:26-27)

Alms, prayers, fasting all help atone for personal sins and are encouraged by Scripture.

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.”

There would be no need to “cover for our own sins” if we did not ever have to account for and pay for them.

James 5:20
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

1 Corinthians 4:2
Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful.

Acts 14:22
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

There is no such thing as OSAS and there is no such Apostolic Biblical teaching which states that we do not have to atone for our own personal sins. Nothing imperfect can enter heaven. This is why there is a place called purgatory. We must atone/cover for our own personal sins because we reap what we sow.

What does God expect of us?
Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

This is not a suggestion. This is a command.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

**People will use all kinds of excuses in order to justify their actions. **

So, you are saying Isaiah 8:20 is a justifying excuse. Interesting!

This 2 Maccabees book is historical. It proves that Jews did indeed pray for their dead and it also explained the reason for their praying for their dead.

2 Machabees 12
46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. The Jews still pray the Kaddish for their dead. This is fact whether Protestants choose to believe it or not.

I certainly do beleive it, never said I didn’t. They also prayed to false gods. For which they suffered the wrath of the one true God. The books of 1&2 Macabees along with the rest of the Apocraphal writings are valuable for their insights into history, but they were excluded from the canon because some parts conflicted with the inspired word ie. Ecc9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. What good does it do to pray for someone who does not have** any more reward**.When a person dies **his reward is set **there is no second chance.

The reason for the celebration of Hanukkah is explained in the books of I & II Maccabees only and it is mentioned in no other books in the Bible, yet Jesus went up to Jerusalem to celebrate it! Now, since this celebration does not coincide with any other book in the Bible, why were all the Jews celebrating it? Hanukkah is also called the Feast of the Dedication and the Festival of Lights. (John 10:22-23)

As I have said. These books are valuable for insights into history. Because something in one of them is mentioned in the rest of the bible does not automatically validate it. The bible is THE WORD OF GOD and as such absolutely cannot contradict itself.

The premise that one thing in the Bible must be corroborated by another in the Bible, in order for it to be true or worthwhile, is a false premise as shown by this example.

You have shown nothing by this example because the Apocrapha is not in the bible and its not in the bible, I’m suspecting, because of the example you give.

The Jews did not believe in “Scripture Alone.” Jesus did not believe in it either. He recognizes the authority given by God to the Scribes and Pharisees in
Matthew 23:1-3
Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

He recognizes the authority of the Scribes and Pharisees only in so far as they follow the writings of Moses.

Since our spirits are not in the graves with our bodies, then they will have to reunite with our new resurrected bodies at the resurrection, correct?

So, why did you say the spirit would not be raised with the body?

continued

 

[Richard_Kastner]

continued

This is speaking of OT Scriptures. There weren’t any NT Scriptures written when this statement was made. Instead, Scripture reveals that we are to adhere to both oral and written traditions of the Church, God’s authority on earth, just as the Scribes and Pharisees were successors of Moses and had His authority on earth.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

Here’s what my commentary says on 2 Thess 2:15 Traditions. Gr. paradoseis (see on Mark 7:3). The word means things delivered, handed over, or transmitted by way of teaching or doctrine. The prominent idea of the word is one of authority above that of the teacher; therefore, here it refers to inspired messages received by Paul and his companions and faithfully passed on to the Thessalonians.
By word, or our epistle. The adjective “our” applies to “word” as well as to “epistle.” Compare on v. 2. By these phrases Paul covers all sources of acceptable teaching. His phraseology also places these two forms of instruction on the same footing, as regards inspiration. This v. did not give the Thessalonians or anyone else to depart fromwhat is set forth in scripture Gal1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Your misinterpretation of Jn. 3:39 proves my point.

How is my interpretation invalid?

The Holy Spirit guaranteed no individuals infallible interpretation of Scriptures. Scripture interpretation is the responsibility of the Church, the one founded upon Peter, only. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would lead His one Church into all truth. He built His Church upon Peter whom He renamed Rock since Peter is to be the rock (representative of Christ the Rock who has now become the Cornerstone) on earth while He is in heaven.

My church is founded on Jesus Christ The rock of ages Deuteronomy32
15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
18Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
Mark12
10And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
Luke 20:
17And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
18Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

I am not being sarcastic.

Come on SHW, the crack about unconcious spirits being stacked up or laid side by side was definitly sarcastic. I’m not saying tat’s unacceptable, I do it too, but own it when you do.

I had this very discussion with my own brother. Our spirits do not just disappear into nothingness until our bodies are resurrected. They take up space somewhere after we die. He finally came to the conclusion that they are conscious and serving and adoring God, as Catholics believe, even though he is not Catholic.

Nobody said they disappear into nothingness. I’ll post this for the third time Ecc12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
If you choose to call returning to God as disappearing into nothingness I guess thats up to to u. Consider this: Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

 

[SHW]

So, you are saying Isaiah 8:20 is a justifying excuse. Interesting!

I was speaking of Scripture Books in general. Protestants used differing excuses as to why they removed books from the Bible. Also, “everything” about God’s Word is not in the Bible as shown by
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

The Apostles taught orally. They preached in person. The epistles were written as supplements to their oral teaching. They were NEVER meant to replace it.

Not every Scripture in the Bible is corroborated by another Scripture saying the exact same thing. All Scripture is inspired and inerrant in regards to teaching faith and morals. No Scripture contradicts another when properly interpreted. Scientific facts and historical facts do not have to be accurate in order for Scripture to be inspired. God’s Word is filtered through human beings’ minds and they then write God’s Word down. Their own knowledge or lack of knowledge about science and history is sometimes shown in their writings.

Let’s take this verse in context:

Isaiah 8:19-20
And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Seeking mediums and wizards in order to get these mediums’ and wizards’ to procure advice from the dead is what “they” say to do. Instead, Isaiah states that “they” should heed the law and the testimony of Isaiah’s vision and seek God instead.

I certainly do beleive it, never said I didn’t. They also prayed to false gods. For which they suffered the wrath of the one true God. The books of 1&2 Macabees along with the rest of the Apocraphal writings are valuable for their insights into history, but they were excluded from the canon because some parts conflicted with the inspired word ie. Ecc9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. What good does it do to pray for someone who does not have** any more reward**.When a person dies **his reward is set **there is no second chance.

This is their unenlightened view of death at their time in history. They did not know any better. The sun does not “rise” either. Should we disregard Moses’ book Genesis because it is incorrect in explaining Science? The earth rotates around the sun and also spins on its own axis and we have darkness every 24 hours because of this. The sun never rises, yet Genesis states it does. (Genesis 19:23)

As I have said. These books are valuable for insights into history. Because something in one of them is mentioned in the rest of the bible does not automatically validate it. The bible is THE WORD OF GOD and as such absolutely cannot contradict itself.

Since you believe in Scripture only, and this feast is definitely not explained in Scripture except in Maccabees and is not explained at all in any of the books that you deem inspired, then how can these Jews including Jesus lawfully celebrate Hanukkah, as named in Scripture by its feast name only? They obviously did not believe in “Scripture alone” since a great feast was celebrated in a certain manner every year to commemorate 2 Maccabees rededication of the Temple.

You have shown nothing by this example because the Apocrapha is not in the bible and its not in the bible, I’m suspecting, because of the example you give.

The Apocrapha as you call it, are included in the original NT Canon of the Bible. The Catholics still use this Bible. Protestants took these books out for various reasons of their own. Why do they insist that the rest of their Bible is inspired when they did not trust the Catholics’ choice on the books they (Protestants) removed? Perhaps the Book called the NT Bible is all a great hoax, and the Catholic Church made up the “whole” NT Bible. How would anyone now know the difference since it was only the Catholic Church who had the NT Bible in the first place 1700 years ago when they first decided on its canons?

He recognizes the authority of the Scribes and Pharisees only in so far as they follow the writings of Moses.

You misunderstand. He acknowledges their authority as God-given. He is telling them to do as they say because the are the lawful leaders with the same authority as Moses had when he was alive. Moses’ office was passed down throughout the ages. Jesus is warning them to not copy the Scribes’ and Pharisees’ personal actions because they are hypocrites. They do not practice what they preach!

So, why did you say the spirit would not be raised with the body?

Because the spirit is never in the grave. The body will rise out of the grave and meet and rejoin with the spirit.

 

[SHW]

continued

Here’s what my commentary says on 2 Thess 2:15 Traditions. Gr. paradoseis (see on Mark 7:3). The word means things delivered, handed over, or transmitted by way of teaching or doctrine. The prominent idea of the word is one of authority above that of the teacher; therefore, here it refers to inspired messages received by Paul and his companions and faithfully passed on to the Thessalonians.
By word, or our epistle. The adjective “our” applies to “word” as well as to “epistle.” Compare on v. 2. By these phrases Paul covers all sources of acceptable teaching. His phraseology also places these two forms of instruction on the same footing, as regards inspiration. This v. did not give the Thessalonians or anyone else to depart fromwhat is set forth in scripture Gal1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

The inspired Word of God was preached. Some of it was also written down, but it was not all written down. (John 21:25)

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you, brethren, that you remember me in all things and keep the traditions just as I delivered them to you.

There Is no need to misinterpret anything if you submit yourself to the light of the Holy Spirit in Christ. There is no oral teaching necessary. The bible is enough. Jn 5: 39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.How is my interpretation invalid?

John 5:39
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

Jesus is speaking of OT Scriptures only in John 5:39 yet you did not understand this fact. So oral teaching is definitely necessary if a person desires to know the correct interpretation of Scripture. The Bible does not explain itself. The Catholic Church has the authority of Jesus to explain the Scriptures. The NT Bible was written by Catholics, for Catholics, in order to explain their faith. The Holy Spirit does not guarantee infallible “light” to every person who picks up a Bible and says a prayer for understanding. This “light” was promised to His Catholic Church, not to individuals.

My church is founded on Jesus Christ The rock of ages Deuteronomy32
15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
16They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
18Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
Mark12
10And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
Luke 20:
17And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?
18Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Yes, Jesus is the Rock of the Old Testament, but He is the Cornerstone of the NT. Jesus built His Church upon the new rock, Peter, and also the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Hint: Peter and Cephas mean Rock. He changed Simon’s name for a reason just as He changed Abram’s name to Abraham for a reason. Abraham was to become the physical father of a great nation of the OT. Peter was to become the spiritual father of the Church of the New Covenant.

Ephesians 2:19-21
Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord,

Come on SHW, the crack about unconcious spirits being stacked up or laid side by side was definitly sarcastic. I’m not saying tat’s unacceptable, I do it too, but own it when you do.

Sarcastic, no. Funny, yes. I actually truly had this conversation with my brother and we both cracked up laughing at all the possibilities we could come up with.

Nobody said they disappear into nothingness. I’ll post this for the third time Ecc12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
If you choose to call returning to God as disappearing into nothingness I guess thats up to to u. Consider this: Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

I believe that all of the dead are either purging their sins in purgatory, suffering damnation in hell, or praising God in heaven, right now.

Some writers of the Psalms show their ignorance of certain truths which have since been revealed. They did not understand what being “dead” actually meant except for what they could see with their own eyes.