Jesus' Church!

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JonNC said:
On first blush, I see no problem with it, but I would like its source.

Jon
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It is interesting that you see no problem with the outline I gave you, Jon. You are somewhere between being a Catholic and a Lutheran. It was this very fundamental conception of Catholicism that was challenged by the Reformation. Religion for the Reformers was the personal encounter of the individual spirit with divine mercy shown in Christ. When they formulated and passionately proclamed the gospel of justification by faith alone it was, implicitly, the whole ‘incarnational’ ethos of Catholicism they were rejecting.

This is the point of divergence from which Reformation and Catholic theology go their separate ways, and in doing so it marks the ultimate reason for the Reformer’s rejection of the sacrifice of the Mass. Hence, the Reformation rejection of a sacrificing priesthood Jon.

“What I am attacking,” declared Luther in 1520, “is something deep-rooted and seemingly impossible to eradicate, since it has been established by the practice of so many centuries and approved by the consent of all men. We shall have to cast out the greater part of the books now in honor, and to change almost the whole face of the Church”. But he is undismayed. “What do I care about the multitude and renown of those who have gone astray? (Very unecumenical of him, wouldn’t you say?) Truth is stronger than all!” In our support of the doctrine of the Mass, the reformer admits, " . . . the papists can appeal to the sayings of the holy Fathers, so many authorities and so widespread a custom, constantly observed throughout the world. What shall we say to these authorities? I say first of all that, even if we had nothing else to answer, it is safer to reject them all rather than to admit that the Mass is a work and a sacrifice." - “Babylonian Captivity”

By admitting that you “see no problem” with the outline I presented to you, Jon, it appears that you have rejected what your reforming fore-Fathers stated.

By doing so, Jon, would that make you an orthodox or liberal Lutheran?
 
Tomster said:
It is interesting that you see no problem with the outline I gave you, Jon. You are somewhere between being a Catholic and a Lutheran. It was this very fundamental conception of Catholicism that was challenged by the Reformation. Religion for the Reformers was the personal encounter of the individual spirit with divine mercy shown in Christ. When they formulated and passionately proclamed the gospel of justification by faith alone it was, implicitly, the whole ‘incarnational’ ethos of Catholicism they were rejecting.

This is the point of divergence from which Reformation and Catholic theology go their separate ways, and in doing so it marks the ultimate reason for the Reformer’s rejection of the sacrifice of the Mass. Hence, the Reformation rejection of a sacrificing priesthood Jon.

“What I am attacking,” declared Luther in 1520, “is something deep-rooted and seemingly impossible to eradicate, since it has been established by the practice of so many centuries and approved by the consent of all men. We shall have to cast out the greater part of the books now in honor, and to change almost the whole face of the Church”. But he is undismayed. “What do I care about the multitude and renown of those who have gone astray? (Very unecumenical of him, wouldn’t you say?) Truth is stronger than all!” In our support of the doctrine of the Mass, the reformer admits, " . . . the papists can appeal to the sayings of the holy Fathers, so many authorities and so widespread a custom, constantly observed throughout the world. What shall we say to these authorities? I say first of all that, even if we had nothing else to answer, it is safer to reject them all rather than to admit that the Mass is a work and a sacrifice." - “Babylonian Captivity”

By admitting that you “see no problem” with the outline I presented to you, Jon, it appears that you have rejected what your reforming fore-Fathers stated.

By doing so, Jon, would that make you an orthodox or liberal Lutheran?
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Looking through it again, I do not see anything “unLutheran” regarding the Incarnation. We confess the Anthanasian Creed. It is in our confessions. Perhaps a theologian could respond to your point, but I, as a layman, still don’t see anything in what you originally posted as unorthodox, even in a Lutheran sense… Compare anything you present, not to Luther the man, but to the Lutheran Confessions. That is the mark of confessional Lutheranism.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Looking through it again, I do not see anything “unLutheran” regarding the Incarnation. We confess the Anthanasian Creed. It is in our confessions. Perhaps a theologian could respond to your point, but I, as a layman, still don’t see anything in what you originally posted as unorthodox, even in a Lutheran sense… Compare anything you present, not to Luther the man, but to the Lutheran Confessions. That is the mark of confessional Lutheranism.

Jon
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Even if “confessional Lutheranism” departs from the teachings of Dr. Luther?
 
Tomster said:
Even if “confessional Lutheranism” departs from the teachings of Dr. Luther?
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Frankly, yes. Luther was but a man. Confessional Lutheranism comes from the Lutheran Confessions, the Book of Concord. “Babylonian Captivity” is not in the Confessions. Those writings of Luther in the Confessions are, The Small and Large Catechisms, and the Smallcald Articles.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Frankly, yes. Luther was but a man. Confessional Lutheranism comes from the Lutheran Confessions, the Book of Concord. “Babylonian Captivity” is not in the Confessions. Those writings of Luther in the Confessions are, The Small and Large Catechisms, and the Smallcald Articles.

Jon
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“The Book of Concord” as in “written by other fallible men”. It’s all the same Jon. :yawn:
 
Tomster said:
Jon,

To gain a better understanding of your position, I will break down the following paragraph into numbered sentences. Please comment on them telling us if each sentence is:

a) orthodox according to your understanding

b) orthodox according to Lutheran teaching

c) orthodox according to Lutherans separated from your particular brand of Lutheranism
  1. Since the Son of God in assuming human nature has united the human to the divine, a totally new and vital relationship has arisen between God and man.
  2. However immeasurable the distance between Creator and creature, between the All-holy God and fallen man, it has been bridged by the Incarnation of God’s Son.
  3. St. Athanasius in the East and St. Augustine in the West both consider that the foundation of the redemption and restoration of fallen man lies in this: that God became man in order that man might become divine.
  4. The fact of the Incarnation, the central fact of the history of the human race, inspires a sense of awe and mystery, not only because it shows that what is impossible with man is possible with God, but also because of its immense and far reaching consequences for the whole of creation and, in particular, for man.
  5. Just as the Incarnation is the visible manifestation of God, whom no man has ever seen, so also in the holy sacraments Christ has rendered visible the invisible working of the divine Spirit.
  6. It is because of this that the normal way of return to God leads through visible realities to those which are invisible.
  7. Such is the way of salvation determined by Christ in God’s name, and the mystery of the Church and all the circumstances of that reality form the counterpart of the mystery of the Incarnation.
  8. Christ’s work of salvation in the individual believer is based, it is true, on an action accomplished once at a certain point in history, on the sacrifice of the Cross by which fallen man was, in principle, reconciled to God; yet it is achieved in each one in a manner resembling the Incarnation itself, that is, in and through the Holy Church which is the body of Christ.
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So, Jon, by accepting the above you do admit that the ministerial and sacrificing priesthood of the Catholic Church was ordained by Christ.
 
Tomster said:
So, Jon, by accepting the above you do admit that the ministerial and sacrificing priesthood of the Catholic Church was ordained by Christ.
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I accept the ministerial priesthood as scriptural. And, I accept the Catholic priesthood as valid in that sense.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
I accept the ministerial priesthood as scriptural. And, I accept the Catholic priesthood as valid in that sense.

Jon
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So you, along with the rest of your spiritual fore-fathers, still reject a sacrificing priesthood.
 
Tomster said:
So you, along with the rest of your spiritual fore-fathers, still reject a sacrificing priesthood.
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It depends on what you mean by sacrificing. The once-for-all sacrifice is Christ’s, but it isn’t incorrect to recognize our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.

Jon
 
Tomster said:
No problem, Jon. It’s just that the Book of Concord has not been given a nihil obstat by Rome yet.
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Pray for the day, Tomster, when we can, together confess those creeds at the same altar.
BTW Tom, I agree with you that the men who wrote the Confessions were fallible.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
It depends on what you mean by sacrificing. The once-for-all sacrifice is Christ’s, but it isn’t incorrect to recognize our sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.

Jon
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You know very well what I mean Jon.

Dr. Luther was violently opposed to the doctrine of the Mass as a sacrifice. However much they differed from one another on other questions, all of the Reformers were agreed on this one point.
 
JonNC said:
Pray for the day, Tomster, when we can, together confess those creeds at the same altar.
BTW Tom, I agree with you that the men who wrote the Confessions were fallible.

Jon
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An altar is where sacrifice is offered. I invite you to come to the true altar where the sacrifice of Calvary is truly re-presented for all believers Jon. Come home, Jon, to the Catholic Church.
 
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