Jesus' Church!

[dogknox]

Jesus never made any protestant churches… NO not even one! Jesus made his “Christian Church”! Christians believe the words of Jesus!

Saint Augustine is CHRISTIAN!! Augustine believes the words of Jesus, Augustine said: “Jesus carried his own body in his hands at the Last Supper”!

Augustine also said… about, Faith Alone (Sola Fide)!

This must not be understood in such a way as to say that a man who has received faith and continues to live is righteous, even though he leads a wicked life. (Questions 76.1; commenting on Romans 3:28; Bray, 105; Defferari, Vol. 70, 195)
&
Unintelligent persons, however, with regard to the apostle’s statement: “We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law,” have thought him to mean that faith suffices to a man, even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works. (A Treatise on Grace and Free Will; Chapters 18; NPNF 1, Vol. V)

Christians believe the words of Jesus, they are not protestants! Augustine is a Catholic Bishop, he is not protestant, Augustine is NOT in protest against Jesus! Protestants are in PROTEST against; “Jesus’ Christian body!” Protestants are NOT Christians simply because: Jesus is NOT, he CANNOT “Be ALWAYS with them, even to the very end of the Age”; Because Jesus did not start with them!

To be Protestant is to reject …scriptures!
Matthew 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you** always**, to the very end of the age.”

FACT: There were no protestants until sixteen hundred years, AFTER Jesus said: "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

He is not with them because he did not start with them, they must reject Matthew 28:20 as a LIE from the mouth of Jesus!

Dogknox

 

[JonNC]

sigh

I wish you His peace.

Jon

 

[Ron_in_minden]

Jesus never made any protestant churches… NO not even one! Jesus made his “Christian Church”! Christians believe the words of Jesus!

Saint Augustine is CHRISTIAN!! Augustine believes the words of Jesus, Augustine said: “Jesus carried his own body in his hands at the Last Supper”!

Augustine also said… about, Faith Alone (Sola Fide)!

*This must *not be understood in such a way as to say that a man who has received faith and continues to live is righteous, even though he leads a wicked life. (Questions 76.1; commenting on Romans 3:28; Bray, 105; Defferari, Vol. 70, 195)
&
Unintelligent persons, however, with regard to the apostle’s statement: “We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law,” have thought him to mean that faith suffices to a man, even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works. (A Treatise on Grace and Free Will; Chapters 18; NPNF 1, Vol. V)

Christians believe the words of Jesus, they are not protestants! Augustine is a Catholic Bishop, he is not protestant, Augustine is NOT in protest against Jesus! Protestants are in PROTEST against; “Jesus’ Christian body!” Protestants are NOT Christians simply because: Jesus is NOT, he CANNOT “Be ALWAYS with them, even to the very end of the Age”; Because Jesus did not start with them!

To be Protestant is to reject …scriptures!
Matthew 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you** always**, to the very end of the age.”

FACT: There were no protestants until sixteen hundred years, AFTER Jesus said: "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

He is not with them because he did not start with them, they must reject Matthew 28:20 as a LIE from the mouth of Jesus!

Dogknox

Can I get an Amen?! Amen brother, preach it!!!

 

[AlexPetrosPio]

sigh

I wish you His peace.

Jon

Actually Jon, he speaks the truth. Although it would be wrong to say Jesus is never present in Protestant churches, but the Lord is fully, truly present in the only church Christ personally founded, and that is the Catholic Church.

The two major pillars that uphold Protestantism are heretical and unbiblical:
Sola fide: everything in St James’ letter. In fact, Luther was going to remove this letter from his canon because it is so clear that working out your faith is so clear in the Letter of St James.
Sola scriptura: just for time’s sake, I’ll post this website: catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea3.asp

 

[brianwalden]

Dogknox,

You claim “Protestants are NOT Christians” because they reject some of the words of Jesus. According to the Catholic Church all people who are validly baptized are Christians. Therefore, if believing heresy makes Protestants non-Christians, you also are not a Christian: you reject the Word of God as handed down in the Sacred Tradition taught by the Magisterium.

P.S. If Protestants came into existence 1500 years too late to be included in Christ’s promise to be with you always, then you came into existence 2000 years too late.

P.P.S. I’m not saying you’re not a Christian. I’m just demonstrating what happens if you follow your arguments to their logical conclusions.

 

[dogknox]

Dogknox,

You claim “Protestants are NOT Christians” because they reject some of the words of Jesus. According to the Catholic Church all people who are validly baptized are Christians. Therefore, if believing heresy makes Protestants non-Christians, you also are not a Christian: you reject the Word of God as handed down in the Sacred Tradition taught by the Magisterium.

P.S. If Protestants came into existence 1500 years too late to be included in Christ’s promise to be with you always, then you came into existence 2000 years too late.

P.P.S. I’m not saying you’re not a Christian. I’m just demonstrating what happens if you follow your arguments to their logical conclusions.

brianwalden Thank you for your reply…
Scriptures DO not lie!
John 12:48 There is a judge for** the one who rejects me and does not accept my words;** that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Okay think…
brianwalden this is written in all protestant bibles, it was also written in Luther’s bible it was written in all the bibles of the men who revolted against the Catholic Church!

John 12:48 (above) tells you and it told them… “**They REJECT Jesus by NOT accepting his words!" It is just this simple!
brianwalden All men who DO NOT accept the scriptures **are REJECTING Jesus”!
Those in the revolt had to REJECT John 12:48 (above) as just another lie from the mouth of God!

All who reject the scriptures “CONDEMN THEMSELVES!”

Christians believe the scriptures this is what saves them… “They are believers” they believe the WORDS of “The WORD”! The man in REVOLT has placed the salvation of his soul in the words of these so called “Reformers” they have placed the salvation of their souls in the words of MEN not on the words of God!!

Do you understand!? I am talking salvation… I can’t pussyfoot around… their souls depend on knowing the truth!

AND… The Catholic Church tells you…
They are Christians** if **they believe the salvic powers of Baptism! Note the “IF”!

Most protestants… 95% of these people in revolt against Jesus; REJECT Baptism as only symbolic!!!
So I am NOT denying the authority of my Holy Church… I am truthfully pointing out her words!

P.S. To be Christian you must believe the words of Jesus!
If you want the scores of verse they reject… Just ask me!!

Dogknox

 

[brianwalden]

brianwalden Thank you for your reply…

P.S. To be Christian you must believe the words of Jesus!
If you want the scores of verse they reject… Just ask me!!

Dogknox

This is simply not true. Baptism is an ontological change, a change in your very being. No amount of heresy, no amount sin, not even being condemned to hell makes you no longer Christian - the souls of the damned still bear the mark of their baptism. I agree with you that that Protestants are in a grave situation in regards to their souls (I would add on that your typical Catholic in America is in a graver situation since they possess the full truth yet for the most part act no different than the culture around them).

I personally, would not use your rhetoric, as most protestants have never been exposed to the truth of the Catholic Church (heck, sadly most Catholics haven’t either). I believe that most do not know what they reject, and so I would use a line of argument that tries to show the beauty of what their missing out on rather than condemn someone who has no conscience knowledge of doing something wrong. But this is a prudential issue, of which good men can disagree, and if your method works in gaining converts then please keep using it.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Actually Jon, he speaks the truth. Although it would be wrong to say Jesus is never present in Protestant churches, but the Lord is fully, truly present in the only church Christ personally founded, and that is the Catholic Church.

The two major pillars that uphold Protestantism are heretical and unbiblical:
Sola fide: everything in St James’ letter. In fact, Luther was going to remove this letter from his canon because it is so clear that working out your faith is so clear in the Letter of St James.
Sola scriptura: just for time’s sake, I’ll post this website: catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0409fea3.asp

I have to disagree. And from what I read and my understanding of it His holiness Pope Benedict does as well.
True, There is but one Church, That Chruch would be as the Creed sayd One Holy Catholic and Apostalic Church. Of which the Catholic and Orthodox make. However, the Proestant communions are part of that Chruch, as they have come out of it and do truth within them.

Even if some of them reject parts of that truth what parts they have come for Christ through the apostels to the Church and therefore keep them in the Chruch even if in an imperfect way.

We should be focused on what we shared and working to rid the missing understanding of those thing that keep us seperated.

to Quote the Movie cool hand luke"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

It in many many case is not what is being said as what is being heard.

And example a lutheran say we are save by grace alone through faith alone.
A Cathilic says no, We are saved by the grace of God through you faith.

Have either of them really said anything different?

 

[dogknox]

This is simply not true. Baptism is an ontological change, a change in your very being. No amount of heresy, no amount sin,** not even being condemned to hell makes you no longer Christian - the souls of the damned still bear the mark of their baptism. **I agree with you that that Protestants are in a grave situation in regards to their souls (I would add on that your typical Catholic in America is in a graver situation since they possess the full truth yet for the most part act no different than the culture around them).

I personally, would not use your rhetoric, as most protestants have never been exposed to the truth of the Catholic Church (heck, sadly most Catholics haven’t either). I believe that most do not know what they reject, and so I would use a line of argument that tries to show the beauty of what their missing out on rather than condemn someone who has no conscience knowledge of doing something wrong. But this is a prudential issue, of which good men can disagree, and if your method works in gaining converts then please keep using it.

Hello brianwalden I hope all is well…
I post scriptures… I know the bible, I use God’ word in my posts!
The man in REVOLT against Jesus’ bride will trumpet; “I believe the scriptures, if it is not in the scriptures, word for word I will not believe it”!!
They TEACH this very thing in their churches!!

All I do, all I have ever done is: I point to the very scriptures, they say they will not reject… Guess what? The protestant rejects the scriptures!
Christians believe the scriptures!!
You said…

No amount of heresy, no amount sin, not even being condemned to hell makes you no longer Christian - the souls of the damned still bear the mark of their baptism.

I would not call a Christian man CONDEMNED. I would say he was CHRISTIAN until he rejected Jesus, then he is a Heretic if he is in a TEACHING position in the Church or just lost, if he is a layman!

To be CHRISTIAN you must believe the scriptures!
To be Baptized you MUST believe Baptism SAVES, scriptures tell you; “Baptism saves”!!! The Protestant rejects baptism as only symbolic, thus they reject the scriptures!!
Again: Christians believe the words of Jesus! Jesus wrote the scriptures!
brianwalden To reject the scriptures is to reject CHRISTIANITY!!!

Christians believe the scriptures, Protestant reject the scriptures!

Example
FACT: Saint Augustine is CHRISTIAN!!
**Augustine said: **“Jesus carried his own body in his hands at the Last Supper”!
Augustine is Catholic, he was a BISHOP!
Catholic’s are Christians, we believe the scriptures, Catholic’s are NOT protestants!

The Protestant will say… “The flesh of Jesus is SYMBOLIC”!
Recap: Augustan the CHRISTIAN believes, the flesh is the bread, Jesus said “IS his body”!
The Protestant rejects the bread Jesus held up and said “This IS my body”! As symbolic!
Do you understand…
One believes the words of Jesus and the other rejects the words of Jesus!
Christians believe the words of Jesus!

EXAMPLE
The Great Commission
Jesus said… “Go make disciples of all nations BAPTIZING”!
Clearly “Baptism makes Disciples!” The protestant rejects the Great Commission saying “Baptism is only symbolic!!”

Scriptures say… Baptism ADDS to Jesus’ body; “Three Thousand were ADDED to his body in one day, by baptism!” (Acts 2)
Clearly “Baptism ADDS people to the Body of Jesus”!
The protestant will reject baptism as only symbolic!

Again: Christians are those who believe the words of Jesus, those who accept the scriptures! To be baptized you must believe; Baptism SAVES, you must be CHRISTIAN!

If you are in Gehenna you might bare the mark of Baptism, you** WERE** CHRISTIAN, Christians are in heaven… EX Christians are not!

No Christians are in Gehenna! Christians believe the scriptures!
Dogknox

 

[Neo_The_One]

Jesus’ church is Catholic church. Protestant church is non-Catholic Christian church i.e. Luther’s church. Protestant is from Catholic, this is why Catholic church ordains men to the priesthood but Protestant church ordains pastors.

 

[Tiberius1701]

The Catholic Church tells you…
They are Christians** if **they believe the salvic powers of Baptism! Note the “IF”!

Most protestants… 95% of these people in revolt against Jesus; REJECT Baptism as only symbolic!!!
So I am NOT denying the authority of my Holy Church… I am truthfully pointing out her words!

P.S. To be Christian you must believe the words of Jesus!
If you want the scores of verse they reject… Just ask me!!

Dogknox

Hello brianwalden I hope all is well…
I post scriptures… I know the bible, I use God’ word in my posts!
The man in REVOLT against Jesus’ bride will trumpet; “I believe the scriptures, if it is not in the scriptures, word for word I will not believe it”!!
They TEACH this very thing in their churches!!

All I do, all I have ever done is: I point to the very scriptures, they say they will not reject… Guess what? The protestant rejects the scriptures!
Christians believe the scriptures!!
You said…

I would not call a Christian man CONDEMNED. I would say he was CHRISTIAN until he rejected Jesus, then he is a Heretic if he is in a TEACHING position in the Church or just lost, if he is a layman!

To be CHRISTIAN you must believe the scriptures!
To be Baptized you MUST believe Baptism SAVES, scriptures tell you; “Baptism saves”!!! The Protestant rejects baptism as only symbolic, thus they reject the scriptures!!
Again: Christians believe the words of Jesus! Jesus wrote the scriptures!

Dogknox, you quote the Scriptures to Protestants to show them that, by not being Catholic, they reject the Word of God. Therefore, I will do likewise to you. Since you are Catholic, I will quote the Word of God as found in the words of the Magisterium, to which you are bound to submit by religious assent - that is to say that you must submit by assenting with your words and actions even if you have not yet come to fully accept these words in your heart.

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

Unless you cease going against these words with your actions, dogknox, you too are rejecting the Word of God and therefore, to be consistent with your own logic, you must admit that even you are “not Christian.” However, the Church would then call you a liar, because the Church does not agree with your line of reasoning! There is no “if” in the description, “All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ.” They merely have to assent to Baptism, at which point God incorporates them into His Son, whether they believe that is what is happening or not. Baptism is no more the work of men’s faith than it is the work of men’s hands. When any Christian is baptized in water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, God does the Baptism, and God infuses them with faith, and God incorporates them into Christ. There is no taking that back, and there is no way to become a non-Christian thereafter! NONE!

The words of the Cathechism of the Catholic Church are the Words of the Magisterium, Dogknox. Therefore, as a Catholic, unless you accept them, you are committing grave error. I don’t need to tell you who you, as a Catholic, should respond to realizing that you are committing grave error…

Lutherans, Calvinists, Baptists, and every other Protestant who was ever baptized with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, are all Christians!!! Stop lying to our separated brethen about how the Church that Christ founded regards them!!! You are only adding to the wounds of Christ by continuing to lash His Body, of which Protestants are a part!!!

 

[Tiberius1701]

The Catholic Church tells you…
They are Christians** if **they believe the salvic powers of Baptism! Note the “IF”!

Dogknox, if you want anyone to believe that you speak for the Catholic Church, show me even one Magisterial document which, in full context, supports this claim. As you can see, I can show you where “The Catholic Church tells you…” that you are wrong; that every baptized person is Christian no matter what they believed about baptism when they were baptized. I can likewise show you “scores of” Magisterial documents that deny your claim that no one outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church is Christian, and moreover, that deny the claim that no one outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church will be saved.

On another thread, one which you derailed the intended topic, I challenged you to answer the question, “by your own definition, aren’t YOU therefore a Protestant??” Do not answer there, where this discussion is a non sequitur and unwelcome; answer here, on your own thread about the definition of the Christian faith. If you believe that “extra ecclesiam nulla salus” means that you must be in complete agreement with and submission to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church governed by the chair of Peter in order to be a Christian, then how can you claim to be either Catholic or Christian while denying infallibly defined teachings of the Catholic Faith? Your own logic denies your claim, sir.

But please, if you can defend yourself using the documents of the Catholic Church Herself, I’d love to see you try…

 

[dogknox]

Dogknox, you quote the Scriptures to Protestants to show them that, by not being Catholic, they reject the Word of God. Therefore, I will do likewise to you. Since you are Catholic, I will quote the Word of God as found in the words of the Magisterium, to which you are bound to submit by religious assent - that is to say that you must submit by assenting with your words and actions even if you have not yet come to fully accept these words in your heart.

Unless you cease going against these words with your actions, dogknox, you too are rejecting the Word of God and therefore, to be consistent with your own logic, you must admit that even you are “not Christian.” However, the Church would then call you a liar, because the Church does not agree with your line of reasoning! There is no “if” in the description, “All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ.” They merely have to assent to Baptism, at which point God incorporates them into His Son, whether they believe that is what is happening or not. Baptism is no more the work of men’s faith than it is the work of men’s hands. When any Christian is baptized in water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, God does the Baptism, and God infuses them with faith, and God incorporates them into Christ. There is no taking that back, and there is no way to become a non-Christian thereafter! NONE!

The words of the Cathechism of the Catholic Church are the Words of the Magisterium, Dogknox. Therefore, as a Catholic, unless you accept them, you are committing grave error. I don’t need to tell you who you, as a Catholic, should respond to realizing that you are committing grave error…

Lutherans, Calvinists, Baptists, and every other Protestant who was ever baptized with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, are all Christians!!! Stop lying to our separated brethen about how the Church that Christ founded regards them!!! You are only adding to the wounds of Christ by continuing to lash His Body, of which Protestants are a part!!!

Tiberius1701 What do you read: "All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ."
Few protestant have “Faith In Baptism!!!”
Few Protestants are JUSTIFIED because they do not have Faith in Baptism!!!

The Lutheran yes NOT Baptists or Calvinists… NOT most of the thousands and thousands of protestant churches!
Tiberius1701 ** I would say…95% of all protestant bodies REJECT** Baptism as only a >>>SYMBOL<<<!!!

Being baptized in the name of the Father and the son and the Holy Spirit will NOT save if you do NOT believe Baptism SAVES!!!

 

[Tiberius1701]

Tiberius1701 What do you read: "All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ."
Few protestant have “Faith In Baptism!!!”
Few Protestants are JUSTIFIED because they do not have Faith in Baptism!!!

The Lutheran yes NOT Baptists or Calvinists… NOT most of the thousands and thousands of protestant churches!
Tiberius1701 ** I would say…95% of all protestant bodies REJECT** Baptism as only a >>>SYMBOL<<<!!!

Being baptized in the name of the Father and the son and the Holy Spirit will NOT save if you do NOT believe Baptism SAVES!!!

Even by your interpretation, which I’m not convinced is correct, Calvinists ARE Christian. I know. I used to be one! They believe that Baptism is a covenantal bond between God and man, they do believe that Baptism incorporates you into Christ. I will grant you, perhaps not all believe that - there are many branches of Calvinism these days - but there are most definitely those who do believe it. In fact, the Catholic Church recently made an accord with the Christian Reformed Church - the very Calvinist ecclesial community in which I was raised - which stated that both the Catholic Church and the CRC recognize the other’s Baptisms as valid and sacramental. Don’t make blanket statements about people whose beliefs you do not know.

If the Holy Spirit does not save those whose faith is imperfect at their Baptism, why then does the Church accept their Baptisms as valid, Dog? Why do we not rebaptize Protestants and heretics? It is because the Holy Spirit did act in their Baptisms!!!
CCC: 1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82

CCC: 1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

CCC: 1282 Since the earliest times, Baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit; children are baptized in the faith of the Church. Entry into Christian life gives access to true freedom.

You are misunderstanding the phrase “by faith in Baptism”. It is “by faith” that they are justified, and that faith is imprinted upon them “in Baptism”. It is not by faith in the concept of Baptism as presented by the Church that they are justified. It is by God, who through Baptism grants them the gift of faith in Christ. No one has ever been saved by faith “in Baptism” as you perceive it. But many have been saved by faith in Christ through Baptism.
CCC: 1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
• giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
• allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
  Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
  You claim that valid Baptism requires the baptized to have faith before the reception of the Sacrament. The Catholic Church, on the other hand, tells us that it is only through Baptism that we are enabled to have faith in God to begin with! You seem to be claiming that we can possess the theological virtues, which are Faith, Hope, and Love, in and of ourselves. The Church denies this and says that all three are the result of Baptism, not the precursor to it. Therefore the indellible mark of Baptism draws neither requirement not qualification from us, but only from God.

 

[dogknox]

Even by your interpretation, which I’m not convinced is correct, Calvinists ARE Christian. I know. I used to be one! They believe that Baptism is a covenantal bond between God and man, they do believe that Baptism incorporates you into Christ. I will grant you, perhaps not all believe that - there are many branches of Calvinism these days - but there are most definitely those who do believe it. In fact, the Catholic Church recently made an accord with the Christian Reformed Church - the very Calvinist ecclesial community in which I was raised - which stated that both the Catholic Church and the CRC recognize the other’s Baptisms as valid and sacramental. Don’t make blanket statements about people whose beliefs you do not know.

If the Holy Spirit does not save those whose faith is imperfect at their Baptism, why then does the Church accept their Baptisms as valid, Dog? Why do we not rebaptize Protestants and heretics? It is because the Holy Spirit did act in their Baptisms!!!
CCC: 1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82

CCC: 1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

CCC: 1282 Since the earliest times, Baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit; children are baptized in the faith of the Church. Entry into Christian life gives access to true freedom.

You are misunderstanding the phrase “by faith in Baptism”. It is “by faith” that they are justified, and that faith is imprinted upon them “in Baptism”. It is not by faith in the concept of Baptism as presented by the Church that they are justified. It is by God, who through Baptism grants them the gift of faith in Christ. No one has ever been saved by faith “in Baptism” as you perceive it. But many have been saved by faith in Christ through Baptism.
CCC: 1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
• giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
• allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
  Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
  You claim that valid Baptism requires the baptized to have faith before the reception of the Sacrament. The Catholic Church, on the other hand, tells us that it is only through Baptism that we are enabled to have faith in God to begin with! You seem to be claiming that we can possess the theological virtues, which are Faith, Hope, and Love, in and of ourselves. The Church denies this and says that all three are the result of Baptism, not the precursor to it. Therefore the indellible mark of Baptism draws neither requirement not qualification from us, but only from God.

Tiberius1701 Repent and be Baptized!!!
If the man did not believe his repentance would MERIT salvation, he would not repent!

Repent and be Baptized for the forgiveness of your sins!
The Repentant person must have FAITH his sins will be removed! The protestant reject the removal of sins by baptism!

38 Peter replied,** “Repent and be baptized**, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The Catholic Church tells us… if they are baptized in the name of God…Father, Son and Holy Spirit they are added to the Body of Jesus! BUT…

But as quickly as they are added they fall into sin by rejecting the Catholic Church!
A early Church father… said… (For the life of me, off hand I can’t think of his name)
He said… “They are saved, then they again enter the dark as a man walking past a lighted window!”

Tiberius1701 If they reject the Catholic Church, they reject the Body of Jesus… It is just this simple!

No they can’t be re baptized! No person can be born twice!! But a person can reject salvation many times!! The baptized person can go to Gehenna… I do not argue about that!
I do say: No unbaptized person can be IN the Catholic Church… The Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ is “The ONLY body of his son; Jesus!” He has one body, NOT thousands and thousands of bodies all in REVOLT against him!!

**Dogknox **

 

[petrosfaith]

Jesus never made any protestant churches… NO not even one! Jesus made his “Christian Church”! Christians believe the words of Jesus!

Saint Augustine is CHRISTIAN!! Augustine believes the words of Jesus, Augustine said: “Jesus carried his own body in his hands at the Last Supper”!

Augustine also said… about, Faith Alone (Sola Fide)!

*This must *not be understood in such a way as to say that a man who has received faith and continues to live is righteous, even though he leads a wicked life. (Questions 76.1; commenting on Romans 3:28; Bray, 105; Defferari, Vol. 70, 195)
&
Unintelligent persons, however, with regard to the apostle’s statement: “We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law,” have thought him to mean that faith suffices to a man, even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works. (A Treatise on Grace and Free Will; Chapters 18; NPNF 1, Vol. V)

Christians believe the words of Jesus, they are not protestants! Augustine is a Catholic Bishop, he is not protestant, Augustine is NOT in protest against Jesus! Protestants are in PROTEST against; “Jesus’ Christian body!” Protestants are NOT Christians simply because: Jesus is NOT, he CANNOT “Be ALWAYS with them, even to the very end of the Age”; Because Jesus did not start with them!

To be Protestant is to reject …scriptures!
Matthew 28:20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you** always**, to the very end of the age.”

FACT: There were no protestants until sixteen hundred years, AFTER Jesus said: "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

He is not with them because he did not start with them, they must reject Matthew 28:20 as a LIE from the mouth of Jesus!

Dogknox

This is a great post dogknox.

Pope Pius XII said:

1. Nor must one imagine that the Body of the Church, just because it bears the name of Christ, is made up during the days of its earthly pilgrimage only of members conspicuous for their holiness, or that it consists only of those whom God has predestined to eternal happiness. It is owing to the Savior’s infinite mercy that place is allowed in His Mystical Body here below for those whom, of old, He did not exclude from the banquet.[20] For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html

When protestants have chosen schism, heresy, and apostasy they have severed themselves from the Body of the Church and thus can not be Christians since they are not longer one in the body of Christ.

 

[dogknox]

This is a great post dogknox.

Pope Pius XII said:

1. Nor must one imagine that the Body of the Church, just because it bears the name of Christ, is made up during the days of its earthly pilgrimage only of members conspicuous for their holiness, or that it consists only of those whom God has predestined to eternal happiness. It is owing to the Savior’s infinite mercy that place is allowed in His Mystical Body here below for those whom, of old, He did not exclude from the banquet.[20] For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html

When protestants have chosen schism, heresy, and apostasy they have severed themselves from the Body of the Church and thus can not be Christians since they are not longer one in the body of Christ.

Yes that is right…

When protestants have chosen schism, heresy, and apostasy they have severed themselves from the Body of the Church and thus can not be Christians since they are not longer one in the body of Christ.

But it does NOT mean they are condemned!!! It does NOT mean they will not have salvation! If they pursue Jesus as best they can… If they have LOVE they will be saved!

petrosfaith FACT: **God is LOVE!! **All who LOVE have God… God will not, he would not place himself into Gehenna!!

1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. **Whoever **lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

The “Thief on the Cross” was not baptized he was NOT added to the Church the Body Of Jesus… Jesus had not yet sent the Holy Spirit, the Church was not formed YET… Pentecost had not happened YET! The Man still ended up in Heaven!!

petrosfaith Same with “John the Baptist!”
Matthew 11:11
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven** is greater than he.**

The protestant is NOT IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus… They are NOT formed into the; Holy Catholic Church, if they are NOT baptized!

If they are baptized they** starve **to death!!!

55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood** remains in me, and I in him.**

To be very clear… QUESTION: HOW does a person remain in Jesus???!!! ** remains in me, and I in him.**

Adam LOST ACCESS to the “Tree Of Life”; Adam starved to death!
Jesus is the second Adam! Jesus HAS ACCESS… Jesus is “The LIFE, come down from heaven”! Jesus EATS from the tree, Christians LIVE because we eat the LIFE!!
**LOOK…**Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

petrosfaith Do you see it?!! Adam became “Like the Holy Spirit” he became like one of us, knowing good and evil.
Adam was stopped from becoming like another one of** “US”**! He was stopped from becoming like the SON…Jesus… “The LIFE!”

The LIFE comes down from heaven and** feeds his body**! The Holy Catholic Church, The BODY of God LIVES forever because she EATS LIFE!!
Ephesians 5 He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated** his own body**, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body.

petrosfaith The LIVING food, gives eternal life!! The Protestant rejects the food so they die in their UNBELIEF!!
53 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

petrosfaith 29 After all, no one ever hated** his own body**, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church

Dogknox

 

[Tiberius1701]

This is a great post dogknox.

Pope Pius XII said:

1. Nor must one imagine that the Body of the Church, just because it bears the name of Christ, is made up during the days of its earthly pilgrimage only of members conspicuous for their holiness, or that it consists only of those whom God has predestined to eternal happiness. It is owing to the Savior’s infinite mercy that place is allowed in His Mystical Body here below for those whom, of old, He did not exclude from the banquet.[20] For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html

When protestants have chosen schism, heresy, and apostasy they have severed themselves from the Body of the Church and thus can not be Christians since they are not longer one in the body of Christ.

Yes when they have chosen schism, heresy, and apostacy, but, to quote the CCC yet again, “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities…” To God, ignorance of the law is a valid defense. Again, the CCC reminds us “Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice” (Paragraph 1859).

Yet, even if all these conditions are met, the indellible mark upon the souls of the Baptized CONNOT BE REMOVED. That’s why it’s called “indellible”! Fine, refuse to call them “Christian,” despite the fact that the Church tells us rather to “accept them with respect and affection as brothers” (CCC818), but the fact nevertheless remains that they have been eternally marked with the sign of God, indellibly sealed with His Spirit… even if they later reject Him.

As for you, Dog, I only have one question to ask. Your ranting and your strange method of proof-texting (which feels very much like the so-called “exegesis” I used to see in Protestant circles - i.e. shallow and non-contextual) make it very hard to tell what you actually believe and thus whether it is truly in line with Church teaching or not. You seem only to correct people, never to actually agree with them, much less to listen carefully to what they are saying. You always seem to attack the viewpoint of people on both sides of any given debate - even those who are very clearly on the Catholic side! So here’s my question: do you even know what you’re trying to say when you post? Are you here to sow Truth? or are you just here to stab everyone with the two-edged sword of Scripture and thus to sow confusion? That’s the true problem I have with your method, Dog: the fruits of your efforts only ever seem to be confusion and antagonism…

 

[dogknox]

Yes when they have chosen schism, heresy, and apostacy, but, to quote the CCC yet again, “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities…” To God, ignorance of the law is a valid defense. Again, the CCC reminds us “Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice” (Paragraph 1859).

Yet, even if all these conditions are met, the indellible mark upon the souls of the Baptized CONNOT BE REMOVED. That’s why it’s called “indellible”! Fine, refuse to call them “Christian,” despite the fact that the Church tells us rather to “accept them with respect and affection as brothers” (CCC818), but the fact nevertheless remains that they have been eternally marked with the sign of God, indellibly sealed with His Spirit… even if they later reject Him.

As for you, Dog, I only have one question to ask. Your ranting and your strange method of proof-texting (which feels very much like the so-called “exegesis” I used to see in Protestant circles - i.e. shallow and non-contextual) make it very hard to tell what you actually believe and thus whether it is truly in line with Church teaching or not. You seem only to correct people, never to actually agree with them, much less to listen carefully to what they are saying. You always seem to attack the viewpoint of people on both sides of any given debate - even those who are very clearly on the Catholic side! So here’s my question: do you even know what you’re trying to say when you post? Are you here to sow Truth? or are you just here to stab everyone with the two-edged sword of Scripture and thus to sow confusion? That’s the true problem I have with your method, Dog: the fruits of your efforts only ever seem to be confusion and antagonism…

Tiberius1701 IF you read my post you would have read…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
***But it does NOT mean they are condemned!!! **It does NOT mean they will not have salvation! If they pursue Jesus as best they can… If they have LOVE they will be saved!

petrosfaith FACT: God is LOVE!! **All who LOVE have God… **God will not, he would not place himself into Gehenna!!

1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

The “Thief on the Cross” was not baptized he was NOT added to the Church the Body Of Jesus… Jesus had not yet sent the Holy Spirit, the Church was not formed YET… Pentecost had not happened YET!** The Man still ended up in Heaven!!**

petrosfaith** Same with “John the Baptist!”**
Matthew 11:11
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

The protestant is NOT IMMERSED into the Body of Jesus… They are NOT formed into the; Holy Catholic Church, if they are NOT baptized!*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Tiberius1701 If you have read my post you would have understood… “I trumpet Catholic Church teachings!!”

Again: ALL Men can enter heaven… “IF they LOVE!!”

Dogknox

 

[Tiberius1701]

Tiberius1701 IF you read my post you would have read…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yeah, and if you’re read my post carefully, you would’ve realized that my point was being addressed to Petrosfaith. My questions were aimed at you. Again, why do you attack the viewpoint of every poster, no matter whether they agree with the Catholic Church or not!? You trumpet so loud that the musical beauty of Catholic teaching is altogether lost in the cachophany of it all. Your trumpet seems dead-set on overpowering and drowning out all the other instruments in God’s orchestra.