Jesus' Church!

[dogknox]

Yeah, and if you’re read my post carefully, you would’ve realized that my point was being addressed to Petrosfaith. My questions were aimed at you. Again, why do you attack the viewpoint of every poster, no matter whether they agree with the Catholic Church or not!? You trumpet so loud that the musical beauty of Catholic teaching is altogether lost in the cachophany of it all. Your trumpet seems dead-set on overpowering and drowning out all the other instruments in God’s orchestra.

Right you are… I missed your address to Petrosfaith!
I do not attack view points… I reject Protestantism OUTRIGHT as the works of Satan!!
He divides and Conquers with his man made tradition of; “Scriptures is all man needs, man does NOT need to listen to the Church, each man can interpret the scriptures rightly!!”
The only reason there are the thousands and thousands of protestant churches all claiming to have the only truth,** but not one is the same**… Is because of this man made; “Scripture ALONE, TRADITION”!

The Idea of “Faith ALONE” is also the spawn of Satan… I am sure this man made TRADITION of; “Faith is all man needs” has sent the most souls to Gehenna then any of Satan’ works!!
God is LOVE, to deny love, is to reject Jesus, it is to reject/remove God from salvation!
The Catholic Church is the Body Of Jesus, to deny the Church, is also to reject Jesus!

Tiberius1701 the truth is found in “Jesus’ Body” not outside of it!! Keep up your so called good work of encouraging the lie of Protestantism, maybe even more souls will go to Gehenna for Satan!

Dogknox

 

[dharmasister]

Can I get an Amen?! Amen brother, preach it!!!

Amen!!!

 

[valentino]

All people who are christians are Catholics.They just aren’t practicing Catholics.Even if they deny the Church’s teaching but still profess belief in Christ they are Catholics.Christ only has one Church.The Catholic Church.All christian churches other than Catholics have broken from the vine.

 

[dharmasister]

All people who are christians are Catholics.They just aren’t practicing Catholics.Even if they deny the Church’s teaching but still profess belief in Christ they are Catholics.Christ only has one Church.The Catholic Church.All christian churches other than Catholics have broken from the vine.

What?!!! Not sure I accept that!! I don’t even think all Catholics are Catholic!! jmho!!

 

[dogknox]

All people who are christians are Catholics.They just aren’t practicing Catholics.Even if they deny the Church’s teaching but still profess belief in Christ they are Catholics.Christ only has one Church.The Catholic Church.All christian churches other than Catholics have broken from the vine.

You are talking in circles.

Catholics are Christians, Christians are Catholics!
Jesus formed his Catholic Church they were all Christians! Christians believe the words of Jesus! Catholic’s believe the words of Jesus!!

Jesus never formed any Protestant bodies… The Protestant is in REVOLT against CHRISTIANS!! The Protestant is in revolt against Jesus’ Church! They are in PROTEST against Jesus! They reject the bride as a lie!

23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Jesus LOVES his bride his Holy Catholic Church!!
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ** loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, **without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

As I said… Jesus formed his Catholic Church… no protestant churches, not one! All protestant churches are formed by MEN, not Jesus!

Dogknox

 

[Tiberius1701]

Right you are… I missed your address to Petrosfaith!
I do not attack view points… I reject Protestantism OUTRIGHT as the works of Satan!!
…
Tiberius1701 the truth is found in “Jesus’ Body” not outside of it!! Keep up your so called good work of encouraging the lie of Protestantism, maybe even more souls will go to Gehenna for Satan!

Since my conversion I have never encouraged the lie of Protestantism and I never will. Just because I try to speak the Truth in Love rather than brow-beating people with the Truth while forgetting to have the humility to remove the plank in my eye doesn’t mean I am your enemy, Dogknox. You claim that you believe we are saved through Love because God is Love, but you don’t seem to practice the Love of Christ. Yes, Love speaks the Truth because our God who is Love is also Truth, but the Truth will never be heard by those who’ve closed their hearts to grace if the Love that speaks it is not evident. Love is “the rain upon the blinding dust of earth, overlying our hard hearts” (Charles Dickens, Great Expectations).

Once again, I call you to quiet your heart, ask God to grant you peace, clarity, and humility, and then read Caritas in Veritate, by Our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI. If you want to be a trumpet, fine, be a trumpet. But don’t forget that, as a member of the Body of Christ which is the Catholic Church, you are not the only instrument in the orchestra, and if you want any good to come of your playing - if you want God to be pleased with the way you harmonize with the rest of His Orchestra - you need to listen to the music of those around you (otherwise you’ll have no idea if you’re harmonizing or just creating discord), and most importantly, you absolutely must accept the direction of our Holy Maistro, the Pope!

You are talking in circles.

Catholics are Christians, Christians are Catholics!
Jesus formed his Catholic Church they were all Christians! Christians believe the words of Jesus! Catholic’s believe the words of Jesus!!

Jesus never formed any Protestant bodies… The Protestant is in REVOLT against CHRISTIANS!! The Protestant is in revolt against Jesus’ Church! They are in PROTEST against Jesus! They reject the bride as a lie!
…
As I said… Jesus formed his Catholic Church… no protestant churches, not one! All protestant churches are formed by MEN, not Jesus!

Dogknox

No, Valentino is not talking in circles, Dogknox. He’s speaking the very same Truth that you and I have been saying. Even if his perspective on it is lost on you, it is still the Truth of the Catholic Faith.

Every single valid Baptism performed with water “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” whether done by Protestant hands, Orthodox hands, or even the agnostic or atheistic hands of a nurse asked to baptize a dying infant in a hospital because no one else is available - EVERY SINGLE BAPTISM - is a Catholic Baptism. As you yourself have said, if the Baptized turns and commits mortal sin immediately thereafter, he or she cuts himself off from the Tree of Life, which is the Most Holy Cross. However, just because they are cut off from the Tree or the Vine, does not mean they were never part of it! In fact, it means exactly the opposite! They were Catholic, even if only for an instant!!!

If you still refuse to submit to the Truth of the Catholic Church, despite our correcting you, despite my citing even the Catechism to you, I will now cite Sacred Tradition for you:

Fact: We do not rebaptize Protestants, even if their ecclesial communities deny that Baptism saves. My wife grew up Free Methodist. They deny the obvious biblical fact that “Baptism… now saves you” (I Pet. 3:21). Yet she was not rebaptized. The Catholic Church acknowledges all Baptisms using the correct form and matter to be valid, Catholic Baptisms.

Search the ECFs, whom you have so recently quoted very well on another thread defending infant baptism. You will find that during the time of St. Cyprian of Carthage, this very question arose: “should we, or should we not rebaptize people who were formerly baptized by heretics but now have returned to the One True Faith?” Cyprian agreed with you, saying that they were not validly baptized, and so did many of the African Bishops. However, the Pope spoke, saying what I am saying, and the matter was settled. Never again were heretics rebaptized. “Rome has spoken, the matter is settled.”

 

[dogknox]

Since my conversion I have never encouraged the lie of Protestantism and I never will. Just because I try to speak the Truth in Love rather than brow-beating people with the Truth while forgetting to have the humility to remove the plank in my eye doesn’t mean I am your enemy, Dogknox. You claim that you believe we are saved through Love because God is Love, but you don’t seem to practice the Love of Christ. Yes, Love speaks the Truth because our God who is Love is also Truth, but the Truth will never be heard by those who’ve closed their hearts to grace if the Love that speaks it is not evident. Love is “the rain upon the blinding dust of earth, overlying our hard hearts” (Charles Dickens, Great Expectations).

Once again, I call you to quiet your heart, ask God to grant you peace, clarity, and humility, and then read Caritas in Veritate, by Our Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI. If you want to be a trumpet, fine, be a trumpet. But don’t forget that, as a member of the Body of Christ which is the Catholic Church, you are not the only instrument in the orchestra, and if you want any good to come of your playing - if you want God to be pleased with the way you harmonize with the rest of His Orchestra - you need to listen to the music of those around you (otherwise you’ll have no idea if you’re harmonizing or just creating discord), and most importantly, you absolutely must accept the direction of our Holy Maistro, the Pope!

No, Valentino is not talking in circles, Dogknox. He’s speaking the very same Truth that you and I have been saying. Even if his perspective on it is lost on you, it is still the Truth of the Catholic Faith.

Every single valid Baptism performed with water “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” whether done by Protestant hands, Orthodox hands, or even the agnostic or atheistic hands of a nurse asked to baptize a dying infant in a hospital because no one else is available - EVERY SINGLE BAPTISM - is a Catholic Baptism. As you yourself have said, if the Baptized turns and commits mortal sin immediately thereafter, he or she cuts himself off from the Tree of Life, which is the Most Holy Cross. However, just because they are cut off from the Tree or the Vine, does not mean they were never part of it! In fact, it means exactly the opposite! They were Catholic, even if only for an instant!!!

If you still refuse to submit to the Truth of the Catholic Church, despite our correcting you, despite my citing even the Catechism to you, I will now cite Sacred Tradition for you:

Fact: We do not rebaptize Protestants, even if their ecclesial communities deny that Baptism saves. My wife grew up Free Methodist. They deny the obvious biblical fact that “Baptism… now saves you” (I Pet. 3:21). Yet she was not rebaptized. The Catholic Church acknowledges all Baptisms using the correct form and matter to be valid, Catholic Baptisms.

Search the ECFs, whom you have so recently quoted very well on another thread defending infant baptism. You will find that during the time of St. Cyprian of Carthage, this very question arose: “should we, or should we not rebaptize people who were formerly baptized by heretics but now have returned to the One True Faith?” Cyprian agreed with you, saying that they were not validly baptized, and so did many of the African Bishops. However, the Pope spoke, saying what I am saying, and the matter was settled. Never again were heretics rebaptized. “Rome has spoken, the matter is settled.”

I agree

Yet she was not rebaptized. The Catholic Church acknowledges all Baptisms using the correct form and matter to be valid, Catholic Baptisms.

Babies are born to prostitutes but they are still babies!!! No baby decides on conception!! They are all born Children of Adam… Corrupted! Until reformed into the Body of Jesus… even for an instant they remain CORRUPTED!! After they are reformed they are Children of God… until the age of reason!!

After then, they fall away, they die from starvation… Baptism FORMS the baby; Communion keeps the re-FORMED person alive!

NOTE: Adam was formed from “Earth & Spirit!” The Earth came from the Holy Waters… The earth and all creation was corrupted NOT the waters! All creation came from the corrupted EARTH!!
2 Peter 3:5
But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and** the earth was formed out of water and by water.**

Jesus is also FORMED from “Earth & Spirit!” Jesus is the second Adam… he MUST be formed equal to the first Adam!!

The Bride re-FORMS the dust of the Earth… With the Holy Waters of Baptism!!
The Groom sends the Spirit! The Dust and the Spirit is reformed into the Body Of Jesus!

 

[Tiberius1701]

I agree

Finally! Now we’re getting somewhere… However, I still think you’re avoiding exercising the virtue of humility. While I forgive you for your abrasive tone, I cannot move forward with this dialogue until you apologize for baselessly claiming that I encourage Protestantism. Any fruitful discussion must be founded upon the principles of honesty and respect on all sides, and I find what you have so recently written about me both dishonest and profoundly disrespectful:

Tiberius1701 … Keep up your so called good work of encouraging the lie of Protestantism, maybe even more souls will go to Gehenna for Satan!

Please, either quote a post, somewhere on this forum, where I have ever “encourag[ed] the lie of Protestantism,” or appologize for this remark. If you want proof that I too “reject the lie of Protestantism” perhaps you might enjoy looking at the two posts that I wrote about Genesis 3 and sola Scriptura found at the following link:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7919953#post7919953

 

[Atemi]

This is a very interesting thread.

It looks as if we are at an impasse.

We have well meaning Catholics all citing “Catholic teaching” and the Catholic catechism…but everyone has their own opinions as to what it all really means. Considering this is such an important issue, the disagreement over what is really “Catholic teaching” is a cause for concern.

Now I know that a favorite phrase of Catholics in this case is “take it to the Church.”

Can an Ecumenical Council now be convened to determine which Catholic opinions of the catechism and Catholic teaching are correct?

If taking it “to the Church” is the means to resolve these great differences among well catechised Catholics as to who is even a Christian or not, then when will this thread receive clarity from the Magisterium?

Until then, I will not know if the Catholic Church even considers me a Christian or not. I sure hope the opinions that are shouted the loudest, or are more popular, are not the ones correct by default.

…

 

[dogknox]

This is a very interesting thread.

It looks as if we are at an impasse.

We have well meaning Catholics all citing “Catholic teaching” and the Catholic catechism…but everyone has their own opinions as to what it all really means. Considering this is such an important issue, the disagreement over what is really “Catholic teaching” is a cause for concern.

Now I know that a favorite phrase of Catholics in this case is “take it to the Church.”

Can an Ecumenical Council now be convened to determine which Catholic opinions of the catechism and Catholic teaching are correct?

If taking it “to the Church” is the means to resolve these great differences among well catechised Catholics as to who is even a Christian or not, then when will this thread receive clarity from the Magisterium?
Until then, I will not know if the Catholic Church even considers me a Christian or not. I sure hope the opinions that are shouted the loudest, or are more popular, are not the ones correct by default.
…

Atemi It is good to meet you…
You want to know if you are Christian! All you have to do is ask yourself… “Do I believe the scriptures” & “Do I believe the same as the Early Christians”!

**First…**You reject the flesh of Jesus as symbolic, Jesus tells you In his scriptures… “My flesh is real food”! The God of the Catholic, the God of the Christian is all powerful, our God can take the form of “Fire” he can take the form of “Smoke” and he can take the form of a “Dove” and yes the Christian God can even take the form of “Bread & Wine”!!
Can your god, do all things…is your god almighty? Can your god take the form of bread & wine? NO!! You have hitched your wagon to the wrong (horse) god!

The Early Christians believed they can and did eat the flesh of Jesus!
Think: Jesus rose from the dead… If you believe in the resurrection you will understand!
Jesus is ALIVE, Body and Soul!! His BODY, his FLESH & BLOOD are LIVING not to ever die again! The Flesh of Jesus keeps me ALIVE forever, because I eat this LIVING forever, LIFE GIVING Flesh!
Jesus is IN Me because I consume him, I KNOW he is in me!

55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever** eats my flesh and drinks my blood** remains in me,** and I in him.**

Atemi Saint Augustine is CHRISTIAN… Christians believe the words of Jesus!!
He tells you…“Jesus carried his own body in his hands at the, Last Supper”!

Don’t take my word for this… Read the scriptures yourself, read the early writings of CHRISTIANS!!

Trust in Jesus, believe in Jesus NOT in the words of your TEACHERS!!!
Reject the TEACHINGS of the “De-formers”!! They rejected the Scriptures and the Early Church Fathers, they have TAUGHT you to do likewise!

Dogknox

 

[dogknox]

Tiberius I read your post about SS and Genesis 3 I agree with you!! It is well written!!
I also have made numerous posts about Genesis 3… But to a different conclusion!!
I would like you to read it…
John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

To LOVE God is to obey his command!!
You were right to mention Eve was not made when God gave his COMMAND to Adam…God never commanded Eve NOT to TOUCH the tree!
Look…Genesis 2 Nothing about, not TOUCHING the tree!!!
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.”

Look at Eves words to the snake!! Genesis 3
3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

It was ADAM who COMMANDED Eve not to TOUCH the Tree… Eve did not obey his COMMAND!! Proving** Eve did NOT love Adam…** She did not keep his COMMAND!
And the reverse…Adam did NOT love Eve… All men know snakes are bad news… When this was being told to the early Jews around the campfire they all would have instantly saw Adam did not defend the woman from the snake! They all KNOW it is the mans job to defend the family/village the young and the old! It is instinctively mans job!!
LOOK…
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Adam did not defend the woman… but to make more clear… LOOK…
12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

God put the two together but he can’t force them to love, or their love would not be real love!! All know, love must be freely given from the heart or it is not real love!
God removed them from the garden because they did not LOVE! They did not love God and they did not love each other!
Tiberius There is only love in heaven… Faith and Hope are not needed, just LOVE!
God is LOVE, Man was made in his image and it is LOVE that will last forever! So I add Genesis 3 is not just about the lie of “Scripture ALONE” as you have pointed out: It also is proof of the Lie of Faith ALONE will get you into heaven! Both lies of Protestantism are proven false by Genesis 3!

Look at the second Adam…and the second Eve…The Catholic Church!
23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body,** of which he is the Savior.** 24 Now as the** church submits to Christ,** so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

**& **

25 Husbands, love your wives**, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her**
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Tiberius The second Adam LOVES his bride! The second EVE…Obeys the COMMANDS of her lover!
24 Now as the** church submits to Christ,**
Tiberius The second Adam and Eve love each other and they eat the LIFE come down from heaven… They both eat of the “Tree Of LIFE” we have access to the LIFE!!!

Adam lost access to the Tree of Life and died!

Dogknox

 

[Atemi]

Sounds good and all, Dog, but it seems your opinion of what the RCC teaches and the opinion of other Catholics do not match.

I am not interested in mere opinions of Catholics regarding this issue.

We need to “take it to the Church” so this major disagreement can be cleared up.

Can you please schedule a Council.

…

 

[dogknox]

Sounds good and all, Dog, but it seems your opinion of what the RCC teaches and the opinion of other Catholics do not match.
I am not interested in mere opinions of Catholics regarding this issue.
We need to “take it to the Church” so this major disagreement can be cleared up.
Can you please schedule a Council.
…

Please be more to the point… What major disagreement?! Details please!

 

[Tiberius1701]

The Council has already been called, Atemi. It convened on 11 October 1962 and concluded on 8 December 1965. It is known as the Second Vatican Council, and it decreed that Dogknox is wrong to deny you the title “Christian.” However, he is right to tell you that you lack the fullness of Truth. He is right to tell you that if you wish to find that fullness, if you wish to serve Christ perfectly in complete submission to His perfect will, both for your life and for the life of every human being, you must join the Catholic Church in union under the Chair of Peter, the Bishop of Rome. But, again, you are, by virtue of your Baptism, a member of the mystical Body of Christ, by name a Christian, no matter what you believed about the nature of Baptism at the time of your submission to that Sacrament of the Catholic Church. For more information on what the Church actually has to say on this matter, please read Unitatis Redintegratio, the Second Vatican Council’s decree on ecumenism.

From this point forward, I will no longer be participating in this thread because Dogknox’ insistence on a belief that is contrary to the Magisterium is clearly causing you, and likely many other non-Catholics, scandal. I have quoted the Magisterium for him, and I have quoted Sacred Tradition, but he has only quoted Scripture, ignoring the authority of the Church which he claims to so adamantly love. I have tried to correct him. I have tried to bring him back into submission to the authority of the Magisterium. But I have failed. Therefore, I will no longer be a party to this scandal. Fair well and may God grant you all the grace to seek the Truth wherever it may lead you. I pray it leads you all to the heart of the Catholic Church, because that is the very heart of God Himself, the Eucharist.

Peace be with you,
Jackford

 

[dogknox]

Tiberius1701 Did you read post #31?

 

[Atemi]

The Council has already been called, Atemi. It convened on 11 October 1962 and concluded on 8 December 1965. It is known as the Second Vatican Council, and it decreed that Dogknox is wrong to deny you the title “Christian.”

That is your opinion of what Catholic teaching is.

Dog, another devout Catholic, has his own opinion of what Catholic teaching is.

It seems lots of well informed, devout Catholics disagree on what Vat II actually teaches.

From this point forward, I will no longer be participating in this thread because Dogknox’ insistence on a belief that is contrary to the Magisterium is clearly causing you, and likely many other non-Catholics, scandal.

Maybe he is right. Maybe you are incorrect.

We need to “take it to the Church.”

I have tried to correct him. I have tried to bring him back into submission to the authority of the Magisterium.

And he has tried to correct you.

You have tried to bring him back into submission to what your opinion is of Catholic teaching.

He has tried to bring you back into submission to what his opinion is of Catholic teaching.

Maybe it is not Sola Scriptura that causes such problems after all, as even the most devout Catholics are just as prone to disagree over what you would all say is clear teaching.

I will take my leave here as well, as I do not seek to just dig up yet more opinions of what Catholic teaching really is. I have experienced enough of that in my own life when I was a Catholic.

…

 

[Church_Militant]

Either way it leaves us many miles ahead of the n-Cs who have literally thousands of different communities already and create more every time they disagree, while claiming their self interpreting Bibles allow them to agree on “core” doctrines even though few of them can even agree as to what those doctrines are…and since no one is in authority…POOF you get a new community. :nope::bible1::bible1::bible1::sad_yes:

We don’t even need another council…we have the Documents of the II Vatican Council right here and we already know that the only thing that makes n-Cs Christian is their Trinitarian baptism.

Atemi, of course, may have more to account for, since he was once a Catholic and now has departed from the faith and even denounces and opposes it to Catholics and fuels anti-Catholic mischief.

Since he claims to understand the faith, accordingly he will answer for his beliefs and actions before Our Lord. He claims not to be ignorant and so he’ll be held accountable for all that. Prize winning example of what “invincible ignorance” is not…

 

[dogknox]

Either way it leaves us many miles ahead of the n-Cs who have literally thousands of different communities already and create more every time they disagree, while claiming their self interpreting Bibles allow them to agree on “core” doctrines even though few of them can even agree as to what those doctrines are…and since no one is in authority…POOF you get a new community. :nope::bible1::bible1::bible1::sad_yes:

We don’t even need another council…we have the Documents of the II Vatican Council right here and we already know that the only thing that makes n-Cs Christian is their Trinitarian baptism.

Atemi, of course, may have more to account for, since he was once a Catholic and now has departed from the faith and even denounces and opposes it to Catholics and fuels anti-Catholic mischief.

Since he claims to understand the faith, accordingly he will answer for his beliefs and actions before Our Lord. He claims not to be ignorant and so he’ll be held accountable for all that. Prize winning example of what “invincible ignorance” is not…

Church Militant It is good to meet you…Just so you know.
I am Catholic; I follow the teachings of my Holy Church! The Church Jesus formed is the Holy Catholic Church none other!

Jesus did not form any protestant churches!! NOT ONE!
Jesus formed his Christian Church… Christians believe the words of Jesus!
**Tiberius1701 ** claims I am NOT Catholic because I point to the protestant and PROVE they reject the words of Jesus!
Again; Jesus formed a Christian church… NOT even one protestant church!! All protestant churches came along sixteen hundred years AFTER Jesus, all are formed by men… all believe the man made TRADITION of “Sole Scripture”! All believe the man made TRADITION of “faith ALONE” all reject the Authority of the Pope!
I accuse them of not believing the words of God… **Tiberius1701 ** Points to the Catholic Church, he reminds me; She as labeled these PROTESTERS, these people in REVOLT against Jesus and his Church as christian’s!

Yes they are christian’s if they believe one verse of scriptures… some more christian then others…I don’t care… to the degree they are christian, I will not argue degrees…
I point to the scriptures they reject: Look I say; “They reject these words of Jesus as lie” I accuse them as…NOT christian, when it comes to certain verses!
DICTIONARY DOT COM
Chris·tian   
[kris-chuhn] Show IPA
–adjective
1.of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ ** or His teachings**: a Christian faith.
2.of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3.of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.

Saint Augustine is Christian he said… “Jesus carried his own body in his hands at the Last Supper”! The Protestant does not agree with Saint Augustine they are polar opposites… Proving beyond all doubt… The Protestant, when it comes to the "Bread and Wine and the Flesh and Blood of Jesus are NOT Christian!
If the protestants are Christian when it comes to the “Bread & Wine” then Saint Augustine is NOT christian… take your pick both are NOT christian at the same time!

I will not water down truth for **Tiberius1701 **!

**Dogknox **

 

[dogknox]

Tiberius1701 Did you read post #31?

 

[TobyLue]

That is your opinion of what Catholic teaching is.

Dog, another devout Catholic, has his own opinion of what Catholic teaching is.

It seems lots of well informed, devout Catholics disagree on what Vat II actually teaches.

Atemi
The thing is this. Dog and Tiberius may disagree on what Vat II teaches, but I don’t see either of them going out and starting out their own church and calling it The Catholic Church. What they would do is go to their priest, and if they still can’t agree they can go to the Bishop. If they still can’t come to an agreement then the Pope may have to step in and his explanation will be final and one of them will have to humbly submit to the interpretation. This is what we mean by “taking it to the Church”.
Arrogance and “I’m lead by the Spirit” has resulted in hundreds if not thousands of different denominations all claiming to have the correct interpretation of scripture.

I will take my leave here as well, as I do not seek to just dig up yet more opinions of what Catholic teaching really is. I have experienced enough of that in my own life when I was a Catholic.

That you failed to submit to authority could be called “arrogance” and “I know better than the Church and 2000 years of teaching”. You are your own council. Whereas Dog and Tiberius have someone they will submit to, you submit eventually to your own authority, your own interpretation and make the claim, “See, I’m right because I’m lead by the spirit.” But is it the Holy Spirit, or the spirit of disobedience or I’m better off by myself spirit, or I know better than the Church spirit?