Dear brother Jon,
As has been explained to you many times Jon, what you say and what you have are two completely different things. Catholics know that the bread Lutherans start off with remains just that through your whole communion service due to Luther’s break with Rome. It’s as simple as that. Lutheran’s, no matter how loud they protest to the fact, do not have a validly ordained, sacrificing priesthood.
It really doesn’t matter what you reject Jon. Protestants have been rejecting all sorts of things for over 500 years and they still cannot find common ground for unity among themselves. That’s what makes all of this ecumenical business quite sticky.
Tomster,
All Christians are of a royal priesthood, yes, but not all Christians can administer the sacraments. I think you know that Lutherans maintain a ministerial priesthood, even if you don’t agree with validity.
Pardon if I disagree.
Without intending to be harsh, I frankly don’t care what other protestant communions say about it, particularly those that do not discern sacraments in the first place.
The only place it has plagued Lutheranism is in those groups who claim to be Lutheran but have strayed from Lutheran orthodoxy.
Sorry to have stressed you out.
I reply… From the encyclopedia…
Yes I am referring to Consubstantiation…
And I am sure those groups who claim to be Lutheran but have strayed from Lutheran Orthodoxy (whatever that is), as you say, would say the same of your particular brand of Lutheranism which just makes my point.Tomster,
You speak of Protestant as if it were a communion. It is not. Protestant is a broad, general term with frankly little value other than to distinguish western Christian communions that either have their individual roots in the CC during the Reformation era, or consequently, their roots in those reformation era movements. Whether they have found common ground is an issue for ecumenism, not grounds against it.
The fact is, however, I am not on a Calvinist forum or a Baptist forum, and it should be obvious that my interest is here, not there. I am much more concerned about unity efforts between our two communions than that of Calvinists and Baptists, for example.
All Christians are of a royal priesthood, yes, but not all Christians can administer the sacraments. I think you know that Lutherans maintain a ministerial priesthood, even if you don’t agree with validity.
Pardon if I disagree.
Without intending to be harsh, I frankly don’t care what other protestant communions say about it, particularly those that do not discern sacraments in the first place.
The only place it has plagued Lutheranism is in those groups who claim to be Lutheran but have strayed from Lutheran orthodoxy.
Sorry to have stressed you out.
Jon
I wish you His peace.
By your first paragraph I see that your commitment to ecumenism is very limited and quite contrary to the expressed will of our Lord that “all may be one.”Tomster,
You speak of Protestant as if it were a communion. It is not. Protestant is a broad, general term with frankly little value other than to distinguish western Christian communions that either have their individual roots in the CC during the Reformation era, or consequently, their roots in those reformation era movements. Whether they have found common ground is an issue for ecumenism, not grounds against it.
The fact is, however, I am not on a Calvinist forum or a Baptist forum, and it should be obvious that my interest is here, not there. I am much more concerned about unity efforts between our two communions than that of Calvinists and Baptists, for example.
All Christians are of a royal priesthood, yes, but not all Christians can administer the sacraments. I think you know that Lutherans maintain a ministerial priesthood, even if you don’t agree with validity.
Pardon if I disagree.
Without intending to be harsh, I frankly don’t care what other protestant communions say about it, particularly those that do not discern sacraments in the first place.
The only place it has plagued Lutheranism is in those groups who claim to be Lutheran but have strayed from Lutheran orthodoxy.
Sorry to have stressed you out.
Jon
How can the simple truth be a protest Jon?You do well to profess here what your communion teaches. (Hope that’s not too loud of a protest)
Refute away if you wish. Be careful not to refute the entire document, however, as there is much agreement between us in it.
Jon
Truth mixed with error is proof enough that the document is a made-made tradition. If you are as committed to ecumenism as you say, try submitting the entire document through the proper channels at Rome and see if it flies.You do well to profess here what your communion teaches. (Hope that’s not too loud of a protest)
Refute away if you wish. Be careful not to refute the entire document, however, as there is much agreement between us in it.
Jon
In regards to your particular gift of private interpretation of Scriptures are you telling us that each person in your particular brand of Lutheranism interprets the Scripture exactly the same way?Tomster,
You speak of Protestant as if it were a communion. It is not. Protestant is a broad, general term with frankly little value other than to distinguish western Christian communions that either have their individual roots in the CC during the Reformation era, or consequently, their roots in those reformation era movements. Whether they have found common ground is an issue for ecumenism, not grounds against it.
The fact is, however, I am not on a Calvinist forum or a Baptist forum, and it should be obvious that my interest is here, not there. I am much more concerned about unity efforts between our two communions than that of Calvinists and Baptists, for example.
All Christians are of a royal priesthood, yes, but not all Christians can administer the sacraments. I think you know that Lutherans maintain a ministerial priesthood, even if you don’t agree with validity.
Pardon if I disagree.
Without intending to be harsh, I frankly don’t care what other protestant communions say about it, particularly those that do not discern sacraments in the first place.
The only place it has plagued Lutheranism is in those groups who claim to be Lutheran but have strayed from Lutheran orthodoxy.
Sorry to have stressed you out.
Jon
Are all Christians of a royal priesthood? Yes!Tomster,
You speak of Protestant as if it were a communion. It is not. Protestant is a broad, general term with frankly little value other than to distinguish western Christian communions that either have their individual roots in the CC during the Reformation era, or consequently, their roots in those reformation era movements. Whether they have found common ground is an issue for ecumenism, not grounds against it.
The fact is, however, I am not on a Calvinist forum or a Baptist forum, and it should be obvious that my interest is here, not there. I am much more concerned about unity efforts between our two communions than that of Calvinists and Baptists, for example.
All Christians are of a royal priesthood, yes, but not all Christians can administer the sacraments. I think you know that Lutherans maintain a ministerial priesthood, even if you don’t agree with validity.
Pardon if I disagree.
Without intending to be harsh, I frankly don’t care what other protestant communions say about it, particularly those that do not discern sacraments in the first place.
The only place it has plagued Lutheranism is in those groups who claim to be Lutheran but have strayed from Lutheran orthodoxy.
Sorry to have stressed you out.
Jon
Well, my friend, it seems we must start somewhere, and it makes sense to start with Rome.
Would female clergy be orthodox Catholicity? It isn’t orthodox Lutheranism, either.
And the same could be said of the CCC through Lutheran channels. And therefore, the need for ecumenism.
In regards to doctrine, Lutherans do not have the option of personal interpretation. We are held to the Lutheran confessions. Regarding adiaphora, then no, Lutherans hold varying views, which is our perogative. For example, I generally have a rather “Catholic” view of marialogy, other Lutherans may not.
Once again, my friend, we beg to differ. However, if Cardinal Ratzinger is to be believed, and he thinks the salvation-granting presence of the Lord is in our Eucharist, that sounds like much more than just bread and wine. And to be honest, without intending to be disrespectful to you personally in any way as I truly enjoy our conversations, I will take his word over yours on what Catholic leaders actually think.
