Jesus' Death and Resurection

[ralphinal]

I have a question about the Muslim understanding of the end of Jesus’ time on earth. I know that they deny the crucifixion. Why? I would take it that the resurection is out as well. Can someone explain how this works? Is the only basis for this the Koran?

 

[Frost]

Muslims believe that Jesus was not crucified, nor did he rise from the dead - all this according to the koran. Instead, they believe that he was taken up to heaven before he died, and on judgment day he will return as the Messiah.

The only basis for this is the koran.

 

[hamba2han]

Before asking Muslims, Christians need to first ask themselves these questions:

**Why do you want Jesus (pbuh) to have suffered such a horrifying and degrading death as depicted in the “eye-witness account” of this alleged crucifixion?

If you have a plausible alternative account whereby Jesus does not die and is instead saved from such a horrible end by his Lord and this account also offers eternal salvation for the believer, then why do you prefer to accept the first account whereby Jesus is crucified instead of the alternative account where he does not die?**

If you truly love someone, then surely you would not want to see him suffer any sort of discomfort or mishap whatsoever let alone to see him die so horrifyingly by being nailed to a cross.

Seems to me that what Christians really want is a ‘Get out of jail card’ that enables them to do the things which are forbidden in their faith… and then have someone else pay the penalty for all of their sins in order for them to get a free pass into Heaven.

 

[Chesster]

Before asking Muslims, Christians need to first ask themselves these questions:

Why do you want Jesus (pbuh) to have suffered such a horrifying and degrading death as depicted in the “eye-witness account” of this alleged crucifixion?

It’s not that we wanted Jesus to have suffered such a death it’s that that is the way God chose to accomplish redemption.

If you have a plausible alternative account whereby Jesus does not die and is instead saved from such a horrible end by his Lord and this account also offers eternal salvation for the believer, then why do you prefer to accept the first account whereby Jesus is crucified instead of the alternative account where he does not die?

Because Jesus Himself said, “Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures, and said to them, ‘Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead’ . . .” (Luke 24:45-46).

If you truly love someone, then surely you would not want to see him suffer any sort of discomfort or mishap whatsoever let alone to see him die so horrifyingly by being nailed to a cross.

Seems to me that what Christians really want is a ‘Get out of jail card’ that enables them to do the things which are forbidden in their faith… and then have someone else pay the penalty for all of their sins in order for them to get a free pass into Heaven.

I think you misunderstand Christianity.

 

[Frost]

Before asking Muslims, Christians need to first ask themselves these questions:

Why do you want Jesus (pbuh) to have suffered such a horrifying and degrading death as depicted in the “eye-witness account” of this alleged crucifixion?

Nobody wants it to be this way, but that is how it happened and we accept it. It is not our place to question God’s will.

If you have a plausible alternative account whereby Jesus does not die and is instead saved from such a horrible end by his Lord and this account also offers eternal salvation for the believer, then why do you prefer to accept the first account whereby Jesus is crucified instead of the alternative account where he does not die?

Because the first account is historically correct.

If you truly love someone, then surely you would not want to see him suffer any sort of discomfort or mishap whatsoever let alone to see him die so horrifyingly by being nailed to a cross.

Of course not. But now that this has happened, there is no point denying it. To say otherwise would be disrespectful to Jesus, who was in fact tortured and killed.

Seems to me that what Christians really want is a ‘Get out of jail card’ that enables them to do the things which are forbidden in their faith… and then have someone else pay the penalty for all of their sins in order for them to get a free pass into Heaven.

Don’t you as a Muslim also believe in a God who forgives whoever He wants? Do you question His will?

Also, it would be better if you took some time to find out exactly what Christians believe. Then you wouldn’t waste your time arguing against something that isn’t true.

 

[ralphinal]

Do not forget that without the suffering and death of Christ on the cross, many of the prophacies about the Christ would not have been fulfilled. All of the prophets from the Jewish scriptures point to this death. By throwing out his passion, do we not discount the Word of God? Did God lie? Did Jesus Lie? Did his mother and friends lie?

 

[hamba2han]

Since the crucifixion and resurrection is so extremely central to Christian belief, then why is it that it is not prophesied even once in the Old Testament?

 

[DLC]

Muslims do not understand the the nature of sin and how sin separates us from God. They do not understand the impossibility of man working his way to God. Sin separates us from God. Only God can provide the remedy for our sin problem. Muslims think that works will save them. How many works must a man perform before being save or even before God will accept him into heaven? This is the great question no Muslim could answer. They try to look at things their own eyes and not through the eyes of a Holy God. They also, think it is wrong that one person must die for others to be saved. The substitutionary death of Christ is wrong to a Muslim. They do not understand the nature of God, sin, and man.

DLC

 

[ralphinal]

Old Testment? Oh my. Where to begin
From this website
passionofchrist.com/english/preview.htm

Silent when accused during his trial

Isaiah 53:7 “He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.”
Matthew 26:62-63 “Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, ‘Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?’ But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, ‘I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.’”

He will suffer for others

Isaiah 53:4-5 “Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.”
Matthew 8:16-17 “When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: ‘He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases.’”

He will be crucified with sinners

Isaiah 53:12 “Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”
Matthew 27:38 “Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left.”

His hands and feet will be pierced

Psalm 22:16 “Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.”
John 20:27 “Then he said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.’”

Will be mocked and insulted by the people

Psalm 22:6-8 “But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people. All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads: ‘He trusts in the Lord; let the Lord rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him.’”
Matthew 27:39-40 “Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads and saying, ‘You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!’”

Will be given gall and vinegar to drink

Psalm 69:21 “They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.”
John 19:29 “A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips.”

His side will be pierced with a spear

Zechariah 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.”
John 19:34 “Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.”

Soldiers will cast lots for his clothing

Psalm 22:18 “They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.”
Mark 15:24 “And they crucified him. Dividing up his clothes, they cast lots to see what each would get.”

Not a bone of his body will be broken

Psalm 34: 20 “He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.”
John 19:33 “But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.”

Will be buried in a rich man’s tomb

Isaiah 53:9 “He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.”
Matthew 27:57-60 “As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away.”

He will be resurrected after his death

Psalm 16:10 “Because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay.”
Matthew 28:9 “Suddenly Jesus met them. ‘Greetings,’ he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him.”

 

[ralphinal]

From this website:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_(Christianity

The first and most obvious is the one from Isaiah 52:13–53:12 (either 8th or 6th century B.C.). This prophetic oracle describes a sinless man who will atone for the sins of his people. By his voluntary suffering, he will save sinners from the just punishment of God. The death of Jesus is said to fulfil this prophecy. E.g., “He had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed” (53:2-5).

 

[ralphinal]

Continued form previous

The second prophecy of Christ’s Passion is the ancient text which Jesus himself quoted, while he was dying on the cross. From the cross, Jesus cried with a loud voice, Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? which means, “My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?” These words of Jesus were a quotation of the ancient Psalm . King David, in Psalm 22, foretold the sufferings of the messiah. E.g., “I am a worm and no man, the reproach of men and the outcast of the people. All who see me, laugh me to scorn, they draw apart their lips, and wag their heads: ‘He trusts in the Lord: let him free him, let him deliver him if he loves him.’ Stand not far from me, for I am troubled; be thou near at hand: for I have no helper… Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet – I can count all my bones – they stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots” (Psalm 22:7-19).

The third main prophecy of the Passion is from the Book of Wisdom. Protestant Christians place it in the Apocrypha, Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox among the deuterocanonical books. But it was written about 150 B.C., and many have understood these verses (12-20 of chapter 2) as a direct prophecy of Jesus’ Passion. E.g., “Let us lie in wait for the just, because he is not for our turn… He boasteth that he hath the knowledge of God, and calleth himself the son of God…and glorieth that he hath God for his father. Let us see then if his words be true… For if he be the true son of God, he will defend him, and will deliver him from the hands of his enemies. Let us examine him by outrages and tortures… Let us condemn him to a most shameful death … These things they thought, and were deceived, for their own malice blinded them” (Wisdom 2:12-20).

 

[ralphinal]

Last little bit

In addition to the above, it deserves to be mentioned that at least three other, less elaborate messianic prophecies were fulfilled in Jesus’ crucifixion. Namely, the following Old Testament passages.

“Many are the afflictions of the just man; but the Lord delivers him from all of them. He guards all his bones: not even one of them shall be broken” (Psalm 34:20).

“And they gave me gall for my food, and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink” (Psalm 69:21).

“And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for an only son; and they shall grieve over him, as the manner is to grieve for the death of the firstborn” (Zechariah

I’ve seen it said that there were over 1000 prophacies in the O.T. about Christ and his Church, and over 10% were fulfilled when he suffered and died.

 

[Frost]

Since the crucifixion and resurrection is so extremely central to Christian belief, then why is it that it is not prophesied even once in the Old Testament?

On the contrary - it is:

Isaiah 53:3-10 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

And:

Psalm 22:16-18 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. 18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

These are only a couple of examples.

 

[Chesster]

Since the crucifixion and resurrection is so extremely central to Christian belief, then why is it that it is not prophesied even once in the Old Testament?

But they are - Ps. 22, Isaiah 53 and Ps. 16:8-11

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

2Han:

What do you think of the predictions of Jesus’ (pbuh) death and resurrection in the writings of the prophets Isaiah (pbuh) and David (pbuh)? Please tell us.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

2Han:

Does not even the Quran quote Jesus (pbuh) as predicting that he would indeed die and rise from the dead?

“Blessed was I on the day I was born, and blessed I shall be on the day of my death and on the day I shall be raised to life.”
– Jesus (pbuh) from the Quran, chapter 19

 

[hamba2han]

Muslims do not understand the the nature of sin and how sin separates us from God. They do not understand the impossibility of man working his way to God. Sin separates us from God. Only God can provide the remedy for our sin problem… They try to look at things their own eyes and not through the eyes of a Holy God… They do not understand the nature of God, sin, and man.

Actually, I think that you are a lot closer to the Muslim position of “God, sin and man” than you realise.

Muslims think that works will save them. How many works must a man perform before being save or even before God will accept him into heaven? This is the great question no Muslim could answer.

Let me make a stab at the answer.

The mercy of Allah is the reason that Allah sends His believers to Paradise on the Day of Judgment. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: “None of you will enter Paradise with his deeds”. They said: “Not even you, oh Messenger of Allah?!”, He said: "Not even me unless Allah bestows His mercy upon me."

And so, as to your question – “How many works must a man perform before being saved or even before God will accept him into Heaven?”

The answer as can be seen from the above hadith is that not a single soul will enter Heaven without the mercy of God regardless of the amount of good deeds that they do throughout their lives.

 

[hamba2han]

On the contrary - it is:

Isaiah 53:3-10 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

And:

Psalm 22:16-18 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. 18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.

These are only a couple of examples.

In Isaiah 53, all it says is that he will get pierced which again it never mentioned the cross nor did it ever mention any sort of resurrection, not just in this chapter, but also throughout the Old Testament. If this servant is indeed Jesus peace be upon him, then him being pierced and never dying seems to perfectly support the Islamic teaching about Prophet Jesus peace be upon him NEVER died on the cross for anyone’s sins.

Also notice that Isaiah 53:11 clearly states that “he will see the light”. What is that light? Could it be the light of Heaven? Probably be raised to Heaven? Christians do believe that Jesus peace be upon him was indeed raised to Heaven, and so do Muslims too. However, we see no mention throughout the ENTIRE Old Testament including obviously Isaiah 53 any mention of resurrection, nor any mention for resurrection on the 3rd day or any day. So does this mean that the servant will get pierced (by being put on the cross perhaps) and then get raised without dying?

Let us look at the following Noble Verse from the Noble Quran: "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): ‘We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.’ But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them. (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)"

Now compare the Noble Verses to Isaiah 52:13 “…he will be raised and lifted up…”. Notice that Isaiah 52:13 did not say “…he will be RESURRECTED and lifted up…” Not even once, did the Old Testament predict for the foretold Servant (Jesus) to be raised to GOD Almighty after death. There absolutely no mention of any sort of resurrection in the Bible’s Old Testament whatsoever.

The above is an excerpt from this webpage which also contains an explanation for the verses in Psalm 22.

 

[hamba2han]

Does not even the Quran quote Jesus (pbuh) as predicting that he would indeed die and rise from the dead?

“Blessed was I on the day I was born, and blessed I shall be on the day of my death and on the day I shall be raised to life.”
– Jesus (pbuh) from the Quran, chapter 19

Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was raised up alive some 2,000 years ago and at some point in time in the not-too-distant(?) future, he will descend to the world…

He will live for 40 years, marry and have children and then he will die and on the Day of Resurrection, he will be raised to life just like every human being who has ever lived and died throughout human history.

 

[ralphinal]

So, Jesus lied when he said he said he would die and rise again (Matt 16:21). The Apostles lied about it, too (Acts 2:23, 32-33). St. Paul wrote extensively about the crucifixion. Read his writings. He talks about the cross being cursed, but God still using it. In fact, he talks about it being a stumbling block to some. I see that here.

I read that website you linked us to. Very interesting, but very incorrect. If you start from a book composed several hundred years later, and force the verses to fit, I can see where he is coming from. Two examples: Hebrews 5:7 and 8 do make it seem like Jesus was not killed until you read 5:9 where he talks about Jesus being “perfected.” That means ressurected. The psalm of David, Psalm 22, mentions others being saved, so the writer assumes that the author would be as well. In fact, it was written centuries before Roman Crucifixion was introduced into Palestine. It was prophetic. Jesus uttered the line from it not as blasphemy, as charged on the website, but to show the people that the Psalm was relevent. The ending of the Psalm is one of triumph, not tragedy, just as His death was a triumph, not a tragedy.

The quotes that the website uses to refute the crucifixion are from books that no serious Christian accepts as inspired. If he is correct that the “early Christians” did not accept the crucifixion, where are the Early Church Fathers? The Apostolic Doctors? THe Apostles themselves on the issue?