Jesus' Death and Resurection

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Socrates4Jesus said:
Is it a sin for a Muslim to answer the sincere questions of an unbeliever seeking to determine whether Islam is the true way? Is it morally wrong for an non-Muslim to ask you to explain not just what you believe but also why you believe?
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For those who really do wish to learn and ask questions about Islam, then I would suggest that it would be far better for you to pursue this in a more appropriate forum than here.

I therefore wish to invite all who are interested in learning and asking questions about Islam to participate at the Muslim forum that I often frequent where God-willing, you will be able to engage in meaningful dialogue with and obtain a lot more info from many other Muslims there than from just the few Muslims here.

Kindly register and introduce yourself at this forum and then ask all the questions on matters related to Islam that you wish… or even post stuff about the Catholic faith… and God-willing, it would be of mutual benefit to you and all the forum members there as well.
 
hamba2han said:
For those who really do wish to learn and ask questions about Islam, then I would suggest that it would be far better for you to pursue this in a more appropriate forum than here.

I therefore wish to invite all who are interested in learning and asking questions about Islam to participate at the Muslim forum that I often frequent where God-willing, you will be able to engage in meaningful dialogue with and obtain a lot more info from many other Muslims there than from just the few Muslims here.

Kindly register and introduce yourself at this forum and then ask all the questions on matters related to Islam that you wish… or even post stuff about the Catholic faith… and God-willing, it would be of mutual benefit to you and all the forum members there as well.
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So hamba did you join this forum to learn about Catholicism and engage in meaningful dialogue or simply to show us we are ignorant and convert (revert) us to Islam?

I did notice that you side-stepped simple questions about Islam again hamba. Why is that? Why do you refuse to answer basic questions about Islam?
 
hamba2han said:
For those who really do wish to learn and ask questions about Islam, then I would suggest that it would be far better for you to pursue this in a more appropriate forum than here.

I therefore wish to invite all who are interested in learning and asking questions about Islam to participate at the Muslim forum that I often frequent where God-willing, you will be able to engage in meaningful dialogue with and obtain a lot more info from many other Muslims there than from just the few Muslims here.

Kindly register and introduce yourself at this forum and then ask all the questions on matters related to Islam that you wish… or even post stuff about the Catholic faith… and God-willing, it would be of mutual benefit to you and all the forum members there as well.
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Perhaps 2Han you might play the roll of ambassador for Allah? We could ask you questions, and if you do not immediately have the answers you could go to your forum and ask our questions there. Once you have the answers you could then come back here and share them with us. You might even encourage other Muslims to follow you back here and join in the discussion. Do you think this would please the only true God?
 
hamba2han said:
In Isaiah 53, all it says is that he will get pierced which again it never mentioned the cross nor did it ever mention any sort of resurrection, not just in this chapter, but also throughout the Old Testament. If this servant is indeed Jesus peace be upon him, then him being pierced and never dying seems to perfectly support the Islamic teaching about Prophet Jesus peace be upon him NEVER died on the cross for anyone’s sins.
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Isaiah says that the servant would die:
Isaiah 53:7-9 he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. 9 He was assigned a grave
and:
Isaiah 53:12 he poured out his life unto death

Isaiah says that the servant will rise from the dead:
Isaiah 53:11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life

The cross is not so important, the main thing is that the servant dies and rises. But the reference to piercing indicates that the execution will be by a cross (a method well known before the Romans took over).
Also notice that Isaiah 53:11 clearly states that “he will see the light”. What is that light? Could it be the light of Heaven? Probably be raised to Heaven?
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The Light is God, who gives Life. The Light is here a metafor for life.
Christians do believe that Jesus peace be upon him was indeed raised to Heaven, and so do Muslims too. However, we see no mention throughout the ENTIRE Old Testament including obviously Isaiah 53 any mention of resurrection, nor any mention for resurrection on the 3rd day or any day.
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As I showed you above, the servant will die and then see the light of life. Jesus himself refers to the prophet Jonah, who spent three days inside the fish, as a “living” prophesy (Luke 11, 29)
So does this mean that the servant will get pierced (by being put on the cross perhaps) and then get raised without dying?
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Let us look at the following Noble Verse from the Noble Quran.
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I’m sorry, but I don’t believe in the Quran, so any references to it doesn’t mean anything to me. Historically it is not a source to Jesus’ life, but the Gospels are. If you want to convince me that your view is correct, you must use the Bible.

I would also like you to explain why Psalm 22 is not a prophecy in your own words, please.
 
hamba2han said:
Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is buried in Madinah and more specifically the Prophet’s Mosque, which over the years has greatly expanded and now encompasses the Prophet’s tomb within it.
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Thank you for answering the question. DO you realize you have just proven the point of Christianity? Jesus has no tomb, no mortal body anymore as we know it, no place to lay His head, no monument to be worshipped, no spot to be marched around or burned incense on. HE IS RISEN! Prove me wrong. Your Prophet is dead and buried. My Jesus is Alive and lives within me as I am in Christ, through baptism, and I have received the gift of the Holy Spirit as He said I would. Can Muhammed or Budha or any of these “latter day” Prophets give me this? You will see one day…we will all be judged…“to Him who sits on the Thrown and to the Lamb… be praise, and honor, and glory and power…forever, and ever, Amen!” Revelation 5:13; Philipians 2:10 (read this one carefully-look it up) 👍
 
Salamander said:
Jesus has no tomb, no mortal body anymore as we know it, no place to lay His head, no monument to be worshipped, no spot to be marched around or burned incense on. HE IS RISEN! Prove me wrong. Your Prophet is dead and buried. My Jesus is:
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Hi

Jesus has a tomb in which he was buried, kindly access the following links for this information which you don’t seem to have:
tombofjesus.com/
alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html

Islam/Quran/Muhammad never believed that Jesus ever died a cursed death on Cross; you won’t find a single Muslim who believes that Jesus died on Cross.

Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Jesus has a tomb in which he was buried, kindly access the following links for this information which you don’t seem to have:
tombofjesus.com/
alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/index.html

Islam/Quran/Muhammad never believed that Jesus ever died a cursed death on Cross; you won’t find a single Muslim who believes that Jesus died on Cross.

Thanks
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paar,

Hold the phone!

Do Muslims believe Jesus was hung on the cross, but did not die on the cross? Not according to islamonline.

islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543288

“In the first place, we would like to stress that Muslims believe that Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) was not crucified. Allah saved and raised him, and someone else was crucified in his place.”

Islamonline is explicit that Jesus was never on the cross, but “The Tomb of Jesus Christ” website you linked to says this:

“Why were these feet carvings made and placed next to the tomb in Kashmir? The position of the scars, just behind the toes, do not match each other, but they would align if a single nail was driven through both of the feet with the left foot placed on top of the right.”

What’s the deal? Was He or Wasn’t He? It seems Muslims don’t even agree on this fundamental fact. And who was the poor sap that the “most mericiful” Allah condemded to die a “cursed death”? Do you know? Do you care?
 
Salamander said:
Thank you for answering the question. DO you realize you have just proven the point of Christianity? Jesus has no tomb, no mortal body anymore as we know it, no place to lay His head, no monument to be worshipped, no spot to be marched around or burned incense on. HE IS RISEN! Prove me wrong.
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**"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): ‘We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.’ But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."**… (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)

Muslims believe that Jesus (pbuh) was raised up alive to Heaven and therefore this means that he has no tomb in this world.

Are there any Christians here who wish to prove this particular teaching of Islam to be wrong on this point?
 
hamba2han said:
"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): ‘We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.’ But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."… (The Noble Quran, 4:156-159)

Muslims believe that Jesus (pbuh) was raised up alive to Heaven and therefore this means that he has no tomb in this world.

Are there any Christians here who wish to prove this particular teaching of Islam to be wrong on this point?
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It is wrong because it contradicts all earlier documentation both religious and historical. Sorta like the “memo” you like to talk about. Only Islam believes this, and not even all Muslims apparently, ask paar, I am sure he will tell you all about Jesus’ tomb.
 
hamba2han said:
When Muslims say that there is no tomb of Jesus (pbuh) in this world, why are Christians disagreeing with this? :confused:
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I should have gone into greater detail, my apologies.

This is what is incorrect as it contradicts all documentation: “…but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them…”

I agree with you that there is no tomb of Jesus, regardless of paar’s links. On this note I am curious. Does Islam allow for such a vastly differing view among Muslims even when the Quran is explicit? Thanks Hamba.
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

I provided two links, the second one is more detailed and answers all questions raised, I repeat the links again:

tombofjesus.com/
alislam.org/library/books…dia/index.html

Everybody has to research for the truth himself.

Thanks
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I would be more than happy to research the link you provided. Unfortunately…

Error 404: The page cannot be found

Page Not Found! The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable

So, if the link (the second one, the one that “answers all our questions”) does not work and you can not be bothered to answer simple questions I guess we have the truth! Thanks for playing!
 
George_Waters said:
I would be more than happy to research the link you provided. Unfortunately…

Error 404: The page cannot be found

Page Not Found! The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable

So, if the link (the second one, the one that “answers all our questions”) does not work and you can not be bothered to answer simple questions I guess we have the truth! Thanks for playing!
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George,

I was able to get there…I don’t know why or how but it worked for me.

I think the plain answer to this doubtful one is clear. The answer is this: The Muslims excuse it away and Christians excuse away the Muslim’s beliefs (too simple I know) as we all have websites and books to refute the other, and so on…

however, I know that once the “not made with hands” concept is believed (as is the case with Spiritual matters), it’s will be difficult to escape the truth, ehem, depending on the believer’s heart. 👍

The Quran: “And follow not that of which thou hast no knowledge. Surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, of all of these it will be asked.” [17:36]
muslim.org/allegs/iz1.htm

The Bible: From the Apostle Paul: “And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God (1 Corinthians 2:1-5).”
thebible.net/modules.php?name=Read&itemid=190&cat=3
 
hamba2han said:
*… *I am not quite sure what is the proof of Islam that you are looking for. …
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Thanks for asking, 2Han. What i would find as most compelling would be something in the Quran that only Allah would know.

Allah is all-knowing. Only Allah knows the future with 100% accuracy 100% of the time. Show me one prediction of the future in the pages of the Quran that is both specific and verifiable, please.
 
I am confused, which is nothing new. Anyway, if Jesus had moved to India in some way shape or form, why did he not come in contact with any of the Apostles in that area? St. Thomas was in India and founded a community that lasts until this day. Matthew and Simon went to Iran, and Bartholomew went to India as well and none of them seemed to have recorded anything about Jesus there. Are these trips in the Koran?

It seems like I am faced with a conflict. Either the Gospels are wrong or the Koran is wrong. If the Gospels are wrong, the Old Testement is either misunderstood or wrong as well. If the Old Testement is wrong, why am I a follower of the God of Abraham? If it is misunderstood, why am I not Jewish? Is there any evidence of the Koran’s story being accurate, other than in the Koran?
 
ralphinal said:
… Is there any evidence of the Koran’s story being accurate, other than in the Koran?
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Good question ralphinal!

Here is another (albeit not as good): Is there any evidence in the words of the Quran that only Allah could have spoken those words? For example, are there any specific and verifiable predictions of the future in its pages that have come true?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
What i would find as most compelling would be something in the Quran that only Allah would know.
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ralphinal said:
Is there any evidence of the Koran’s story being accurate, other than in the Koran?
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THE WORD “PHARAOH” IN THE QUR’AN

In the Old Testament, the Egyptian ruler during the period of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) and Prophet Joseph (pbuh) are named “Pharaoh”. However, this title was actually employed after the eras in which these two Prophets lived.

While addressing the Egyptian ruler at the time of Prophet Joseph (pbuh), the word “Al-Malik” in Arabic is used in the Qur’an: It refers to a ruler, king or sultan:

The King said, ‘Bring him to me straight away!’… (Qur’an, 12:50)

The ruler of Egypt in the time of the Prophet Moses (pbuh) is referred to as “Pharaoh”. This distinction in the Qur’an is not made in the Old and New Testaments nor by Jewish historians. In the Bible, the word “Pharaoh” is used, in every reference to an Egyptian monarch. On the other hand, the Qur’an is far more concise and accurate in the terminology it employs.

The use of the word “Pharaoh” in Egyptian history belongs only to the late period. This particular title began to be employed in the 14th century B.C., during the reign of Amenhotep IV. The Prophet Joseph (pbuh) lived at least 200 years before that time.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica says that the word “Pharaoh” was a title of respect used from the New Kingdom (beginning with the 18th dynasty; B.C. 1539-1292) until the 22nd dynasty (B.C. 945-730), after which this term of address became the title of the king. Further information on this subject comes from the Academic American Encyclopaedia, which states that the title of Pharaoh began to be used in the New Kingdom.

As we have seen, the use of the word “Pharaoh” dates from a specific period in history. For that reason, the fact that the Qur’an distinguishes between the different Egyptian titles in different Egyptian eras is yet another proof that the Qur’an is Allah’s Word.

**In this way We give you news of what has gone before and We have given you a reminder direct from Us. Those who turn away from it will bear a heavy burden on the Day of Rising. ** … (Qur’an, 20:99-100)
 
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