Jesus' Death and Resurection

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So are history books inspired writing? How about historical fiction? I am not a Bible scholar, but is the word Pharo used in the origional writings or is that how it was translated into the Greek and Latin later on as that was the familiar word for Egyption king?
 
hamba2han said:
THE WORD “PHARAOH” IN THE QUR’AN

In the Old Testament, the Egyptian ruler during the period of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) and Prophet Joseph (pbuh) are named “Pharaoh”. However, this title was actually employed after the eras in which these two Prophets lived.

While addressing the Egyptian ruler at the time of Prophet Joseph (pbuh), the word “Al-Malik” in Arabic is used in the Qur’an: It refers to a ruler, king or sultan:

The King said, ‘Bring him to me straight away!’… (Qur’an, 12:50)

… As we have seen, the use of the word “Pharaoh” dates from a specific period in history. For that reason, the fact that the Qur’an distinguishes between the different Egyptian titles in different Egyptian eras is yet another proof that the Qur’an is Allah’s Word.
…
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Thank you for trying to answer my my question, 2Han!

In response, the words “king of Egypt” also appear in the Bible:

Some time later, the cupbearer and the baker of the king of Egypt offended their master, the king of Egypt.
… each of the two men—the cupbearer and the baker of the king of Egypt, who were being held in prison—had a dream the same night, and each dream had a meaning of its own.

(Genesis, chapter 40)

=======================================

… The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, “When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live.” …

… During that long period, the king of Egypt died. The Israelites groaned in their slavery and cried out, and their cry for help because of their slavery went up to God. …

… “The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, ‘The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.’ But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him.” …

(Exodus, chapters 1-3)

You may confirm the accuracy of the quotes here:

biblegateway.com/

If you prefer, there is an Arabic translation here:

biblegateway.com/versions/
 
I’m not asking that you prove the Bible is human rather than divine in its origin (though i’m willing to look at any evidence you have against the Bible). I’m only asking what evidence you have that only Allah could possibly be the author of the Quran.

Do you have a more compelling reason that only Allah is the source of the words of the Quran?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
In response, the words “king of Egypt” also appear in the Bible:

Some time later, the cupbearer and the baker of the king of Egypt offended their master, the king of Egypt.
… each of the two men—the cupbearer and the baker of the king of Egypt, who were being held in prison—had a dream the same night, and each dream had a meaning of its own.

(Genesis, chapter 40)
​
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Either you are completely missing the point or you have misunderstood the real significance of it.

You see, it is not the case of the Bible mentioning the term ‘king of Egypt’ that is the issue here, but rather, it is the fact that the Bible refers to this king of Egypt as ‘Pharaoh’ in Genesis when relating the story of Prophet Joseph (pbuh).

This is historically incorrect because the king of Egypt during Joseph’s time was not called ‘Pharaoh’.

This error is not found in the Qur’an whereas the Old Testament and other Jewish scriptures do indeed make this mistake.

It is reasonable to assume that only God Himself would know this small but significant detail about this incorrect use of the word ‘Pharaoh’ during the time of Prophet Joseph (pbuh).​
 
George_Waters said:
If you do not believe Jesus was on the cross at all, why would the feet on the tomb’s doors have nail marks? Thank you.
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Hi

You are right, I as an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim do believe that JesusYeshuaIssa was put on Cross, he was nailed and he was inflicted injuries on it but he was still alive when he was delivered from it. He did not die on Cross.

Quran
[4:158] And for their saying, ‘We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.*
Unquote
  • They could not kill him certainly.
For detail please read the book suggested by me.

Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

You are right, I as an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim do believe that JesusYeshuaIssa was put on Cross, he was nailed and he was inflicted injuries on it but he was still alive when he was delivered from it. He did not die on Cross.

Quran
[4:158] And for their saying, ‘We did slay the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;’ whereas they slew him not, nor did they bring about his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified; and those who differ therein are certainly in a state of doubt about it; they have no certain knowledge thereof, but only pursue a conjecture; and they did not arrive at a certainty concerning it.*
Unquote
  • They could not kill him certainly.
For detail please read the book suggested by me.

Thanks
Click to expand...
Thank you for the answer. I will check out your link later. Do most Muslims believe Jesus was on the cross, but did not die as you do? I had thought the majority of Muslims do not believe he was even placed on the cross? Thanks paar!
 
hamba2han said:
… You see, it is not the case of the Bible mentioning the term ‘king of Egypt’ that is the issue here, but rather, it is the fact that the Bible refers to this king of Egypt as ‘Pharaoh’ in Genesis when relating the story of Prophet Joseph (pbuh).

This is historically incorrect because the king of Egypt during Joseph’s time was not called ‘Pharaoh’.

This error is not found in the Qur’an whereas the Old Testament and other Jewish scriptures do indeed make this mistake.

It is reasonable to assume that only God Himself would know this small but significant detail about this incorrect use of the word ‘Pharaoh’ during the time of Prophet Joseph (pbuh).
Click to expand...
Thank you, 2Han. I believe i understand, now. Can you cite your source so that i may read what he or she has to say and judge for myself whether it is historically accurate? What is the name of the historian who holds your view and what link can i follow to read his perspective on this?
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Thank you, 2Han. I believe i understand, now. Can you cite your source so that i may read what he or she has to say and judge for myself whether it is historically accurate? What is the name of the historian who holds your view and what link can i follow to read his perspective on this?
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The following are excerpts from various articles in Wikipedia:
  1. Pharaoh was a name for the office of kingship in the New Kingdom of ancient Egypt.
  2. The New Kingdom, sometimes referred to as the Egyptian Empire, is the period in ancient Egyptian history between the 16th century BC and the 11th century BC, covering the Eighteenth, Nineteenth, and Twentieth Dynasties of Egypt.
  3. Archaeological excavations of the remains of the Abydos mortuary temple of king Ahmose I in the 1990’s have uncovered thousands of fragmentary reliefs depicting this pharaoh’s battles against the Hyksos as well as the earliest known depiction of chariots in Egyptian warfare. This discovery affirms the general view that it was the Hyksos who first brought the chariot into Egypt and permits Joseph to have enjoyed a high position in office during the 15th Hyksos Dynasty as opposed to the later native Egyptian 18th Dynasty… The price of 20 Derham which was paid for Joseph’s slavery in Mesopotamia also affirms a relative date for Joseph in the 18th or 17th Century BC.
And do not call me ‘2han’ please, ‘hamba’ or ‘h2h’ would be just fine.
 
hamba2han said:
The following are excerpts from various articles in Wikipedia:
  1. Pharaoh was a name for the office of kingship in the New Kingdom of ancient Egypt.
  2. The New Kingdom, sometimes referred to as the Egyptian Empire, is the period in ancient Egyptian history between the 16th century BC and the 11th century BC, covering the Eighteenth, Nineteenth, and Twentieth Dynasties of Egypt.
    …
Click to expand...
Hamba:

There is a saying in the US: “Don’t believe everything you read.”

In the United States university students are not allowed to use Wikipedia as a reference source. The reason for this is that anyone, regardless of his credentials, may edit the information at the Web site. It is simply too easy for incorrect information to be submitted as factual, no matter how far from the truth that information is.

A more reliable (and also unbiased source) is the Microsoft Web site that features the online encyclopedia MSN Encarta:

encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761595434/Pharaoh.html

There you and i may read the following quote:

Pharaoh (Egyptian “great house”), name originally used by the ancient Egyptians for the palace of their king. Beginning in the 18th Dynasty (1550-1307 bc) it was applied by extension to the king himself. Of course, B.C. 1550 is at least a thousand years earlier than the writing of the Book of Exodus, which conservative scholars believe Moses authored between B.C. 1450 and B.C. 1410.

MSN Encarta is a secular (not religious) site, and there are many other reputable online encyclopedias that i’m sure agree with it. The Microsoft corporation, after all, does not want to be accused of anything less than academic excellence in the software they sell, which is also called the Encarta encyclopedia.
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
A more reliable (and also unbiased source) is the Microsoft Web site that features the online encyclopedia MSN Encarta:

encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761595434/Pharaoh.html
Click to expand...
According to MSN Encarta:
Pharaoh (Egyptian “great house”), name originally used by the ancient Egyptians for the palace of their king. Beginning in the 18th Dynasty (1550-1307 bc) it was applied by extension to the king himself.
And according to Wikipedia:
The New Kingdom, sometimes referred to as the Egyptian Empire, is the period in ancient Egyptian history between the 16th century BC and the 11th century BC, covering the Eighteenth, Nineteenth, and Twentieth Dynasties of Egypt.
I do not see any discrepancy here at all between the Wikipedia explanation and that of MSN Encarta i.e. they both state that the term ‘Pharaoh’ began in the 18th Dynasty of Egypt.

Since the time of Prophet Joseph (pbuh) was before this i.e. 15th Dynasty, this means that the king of Egypt was not called ‘Pharaoh’ during his life.
 
But when the Torah/Bible was written, it was in use to describe the King.

Do you understand? It is not as if the story of Joseph was dictated as it was happening. It was written down at a later point. No one disputes this. The Quran was written even later. No one disputes that. If you think that the QUran is more accurate because it doesn’t use the word, that’s your privilege.

P.S. Just because we haven’t found any evidence that the word was used earlier, doesn’t mean that the word wasn’t used earlier.
 
hamba2han said:
According to MSN Encarta:

Pharaoh (Egyptian “great house”), name originally used by the ancient Egyptians for the palace of their king. Beginning in the 18th Dynasty (1550-1307 bc) it was applied by extension to the king himself.
And according to Wikipedia:

The New Kingdom, sometimes referred to as the Egyptian Empire, is the period in ancient Egyptian history between the 16th century BC and the 11th century BC, covering the Eighteenth, Nineteenth, and Twentieth Dynasties of Egypt.
I do not see any discrepancy here at all between the Wikipedia explanation and that of MSN Encarta i.e. they both state that the term ‘Pharaoh’ began in the 18th Dynasty of Egypt.

Since the time of Prophet Joseph (pbuh) was before this i.e. 15th Dynasty, this means that the king of Egypt was not called ‘Pharaoh’ during his life.
Click to expand...
|— B.C. 1550 (the dynasty begins) ------- B.C. 1450 (Moses writes Exodus) -------- B.C. 1307 —|

B.C. 1450 (the approximate date the Book of Exodus was written by Moses) was in fact during the dynasty in which the term Pharaoh was used. I believe, then, you believe the king of Egypt mentioned by Moses was from an earlier dynasty.

Do you have any evidence to support this?
 
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