Jesus descended to hell?

  • Thread starter Thread starter sckcd
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Animals in heaven? No.
There must be animals in heaven because the following story is a true:

A cat and a mouse died on the same day and went up to Heaven. At the top they met God and he asked them ‘How do you like it so far?’

The mouse replied ‘It’s great, but can I get a pair of roller skates?’ God said ‘Sure’, and he gave him a pair of roller skates.

The next day God saw the cat and asked him ‘How do you like it up here so far?’ and the cat replied ‘Great, I didn’t know you had meals on wheels up here!’ 😉
 
the place was believed to be hell because before Jesus, no one can get to Heaven. but it wasn’t the eternal damnation hell. they were righteous but cannot enter Heaven. so where else do their souls go?

of course the understanding of this changed through time
 
There must be animals in heaven because the following story is a true:

A cat and a mouse died on the same day and went up to Heaven. At the top they met God and he asked them ‘How do you like it so far?’

The mouse replied ‘It’s great, but can I get a pair of roller skates?’ God said ‘Sure’, and he gave him a pair of roller skates.

The next day God saw the cat and asked him ‘How do you like it up here so far?’ and the cat replied ‘Great, I didn’t know you had meals on wheels up here!’ 😉
Wow!!! Thanks for clearing up my error!

And thanks for a great joke, my friend!
 
the place was believed to be hell because before Jesus, no one can get to Heaven. but it wasn’t the eternal damnation hell. they were righteous but cannot enter Heaven. so where else do their souls go?

of course the understanding of this changed through time
In the Holy Bible, the expression “the Bosom of Abraham” is found only in two verses of St. Luke’s Gospel (16:22-23). It occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world of the dead which were current in Our Lord’s time. According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23). And it is in harmony with these Jewish conceptions that Our Lord pictured the terrible fate of the selfish Rich Man, and on the contrary, the glorious reward of the patient Lazarus. **For the continuation, please click on this linknewadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

God Bless
 
What is so complicated? Love Him and follow His Will and you get the grand prize. Walk away from His love and you get eternal doom.

God didn’t HAVE to let us kill his son to forgive us. God needed us to learn (and yes, we can be very hard-headed) how much He loves us. Hence, He gave us His only begotten Son. If someone is willing to give up their only son in order to save us from hell, just think of how much greater the rewards are when we get to heaven?

And regarding “so did Jesus die?” We killed the Man Jesus. His Divinity did not, and can not die. Then, when he was raised from the dead, His Soul and His Body were reunited. When He ascended into Heaven, He went Body and Soul.
When you go to heaven you get a new body because this one is gone?
Douse god make people new bodies so they will be able to burn in hell? Are the bodies burn proof or douse he keep giving new bodies to those in hell?

Why did Jesus die? Could god not forgive us without death?

You make it sound like Jesus death was to give us a heart for a open heart transplant operation.
But the bible story said Jesus got tortured on the cross to please god or (to make the payment for man’s sins).
god did not like sin he was not pleased and unable to forgive. So to make him happy so he will forgive we had to kill Jesus his son.
Now god will find it in his heart not to torture us for all eternity.
How is this logical?
#1 god makes the rules
#2 god made sin evil and the devil
#3 god made the tree for Adam to eat from
#4 god maid hell just to torture his creations (he could just make them vanish)
 
When you go to heaven you get a new body because this one is gone?
Douse god make people new bodies so they will be able to burn in hell? Are the bodies burn proof or douse he keep giving new bodies to those in hell?
Slow down, brother. Ease up on the coffee.

Are you pre-obsessed with going to hell? If you study what the Church teaches, you’ll find that those who get to heaven will be reunited with their original bodies, but their bodies will be in their glorified state (IOW, free from any of the blemishes that we may have incurred during this life… you know… body pierces and whatnot, for example).
Why did Jesus die? Could god not forgive us without death?
Yes, He could have chose a myriad of ways. But how many ways will teach us a lesson? Did our brother Jews learn a lesson when they were freed from Egypt? No. After all the miracles, they still went to idol worship within 50 days out.
You make it sound like Jesus death was to give us a heart for a open heart transplant operation.
“… I will replace their hearts of stone…”
But the bible story said Jesus got tortured on the cross to please god or (to make the payment for man’s sins).
Well, which was it? Was he tortured to please God? Or to make the payment of man’s sins?
god did not like sin he was not pleased and unable to forgive.
Where do you get that from, my brother? God alone can forgive our sins.
So to make him happy so he will forgive we had to kill Jesus his son. Now god will find it in his heart not to torture us for all eternity.
OK, you lost me.
How is this logical?
#1 god makes the rules
#2 god made sin evil and the devil
#3 god made the tree for Adam to eat from
#4 god maid hell just to torture his creations (he could just make them vanish)
#1 - Correct
#2 Wrong. God did not create evil or the devil. God create Lucifer. Lucifer rejected God and became evil. Evil is the complete absence of God.
#3 - Correction - God made the tree but told Adam not to eat it.
#4 - Where do you get this from? I know of no teaching that reveals this.

You remind me of a song in the 60’s by Blood, Sweat, and Tears. One of the lines goes, “I swear there ain’t no heaven, and I pray there ain’t no hell”.

A piece of advice. Why don’t you focus on all the good that God has done for you instead of dwelling on all the evil that your rejection of Him can cause you.
 
Difficult question
This is in the Apostles Creed I believe.
It means that Jesus descended into the Abode of the Dead known as Sheol and opened,if you will, heaven. Please correct me if I am wrong but i think this is what that means.
 
In the Holy Bible, the expression “the Bosom of Abraham” is found only in two verses of St. Luke’s Gospel (16:22-23). It occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world of the dead which were current in Our Lord’s time. According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life. In the unseen world of the dead the souls of the righteous occupied an abode or compartment of their own which was distinctly separated by a wall or a chasm from the abode or compartment to which the souls of the wicked were consigned. The latter was a place of torments usually spoken of as Gehenna (cf. Matthew 5:29, 30; 18:9; Mark 9:42 sqq. in the Latin Vulgate) — the other, a place of bliss and security known under the names of “Paradise” (cf. Luke 23:43) and “the Bosom of Abraham” (Luke 16:22-23). And it is in harmony with these Jewish conceptions that Our Lord pictured the terrible fate of the selfish Rich Man, and on the contrary, the glorious reward of the patient Lazarus. **For the continuation, please click on this linknewadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

God Bless
The Jewish Encyclopedia says of the soul and death:

“The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body” – that is, after death – “is a matter of philosophical or theological SPECULATION rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly NOWHERE TAUGHT IN HOLY SCRIPTURE.

It adds:

“The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended.”

Herodotus, a famous Greek historian living in the 5th century BC also known as the father of history, wrote:

“The Egyptians were also the first that asserted that the soul of man is immortal … This opinion, some among the Greeks have at different periods of time adopted as their own” (Euterpe, chapter 123).

Compare the similarity of present-day beliefs with what Plato wrote in his book, the Phaedo:

“The soul whose inseparable attribute is life will never admit of life’s opposite, death. Thus the soul is shown to be immortal, and since immortal, indestructible… Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul and body? And being dead is the attainment of this separation, when the soul exists in herself and separate from the body, and the body is parted from the soul. That is death… Death is merely the separation of soul and body.”

Instead of following the Bible’s revelation about the soul and death, some early church leaders followed the teachings of the pagan philosophers. Toward the close of the second century, a school of professing Christians in Alexandria, Egypt, adopted Platonism plus the Bible as their creed. One of their chief teachers, Origen wrote: “Souls are immortal.” He continues to speak of “The Platonist, who believes in the immortality of the soul.” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. IV).

Tertullian, another important teacher, wrote: “For some things are known, even BY NATURE:” – he meant, of course, by using philosophical thinking – “the immortality of the soul, for instance, is held BY MANY…” – yes, not by divine revelation – “I may use, therefore, the OPINION OF PLATO, when he declares: ‘Every soul is immortal’” (Vol. III).

However, as late as the fourth century we find the Catholic apologist, Arnobius, saying of those who were “carried away with an extravagant opinion of themselves that souls are immortal… Will you lay aside your habitual ignorance, O me, who claim God as your Father, and maintain that you are immortal just as He is?” (Vol. VI).

But the truth was gradually snuffed out by the more popular teachings of Greek philosophy, for which most of the early church fathers were steeped in. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia (Article “Soul”) admits that “It [the doctrine of the immortality of the soul] enshrines the principles of ancient SPECULATION.”

If one does not have a preconceived belief of the soul living beyond a person’s death, it would not be necessary to interpret the expression “Abraham’s bosom.” We can take it in its plain and obvious meaning and avoid the path of speculation.

Consider this. If the “bosom of Abraham” means a place of bliss, what is meant by “the bosom of the Father”?

“…the only begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father…” (John 1:18).

And what about the “bosom of Christ”?

“He [Christ] shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young” (Isa. 40:11).

And you would also have to consider the “bosom of Moses”:

“… Have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child…?” (Num. 11:12).
 
The Jewish Encyclopedia says of the soul and death:

“The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body” – that is, after death – “is a matter of philosophical or theological SPECULATION rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly NOWHERE TAUGHT IN HOLY SCRIPTURE.

It adds:

“The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended.”
I would add a slight qualification to this from a Catholic perspective. The Greek concept of soul (psyche) shows up in the OT is the book WS – 3:1; and as preexisting in 8:19-20.

In the NT, we can infer the existence of the psyche that survives death when Christ makes a promise to the crucified thief: “And he said to him, ‘Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise (LK 23:43).’”

There is one interesting reference in the Apc. that reveals the survival after death of the psyche in an undefined state of burial:

“When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, ‘O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?’ Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been (6:9-11)”
 
I do not drink coffee.

Yes I am obsessed with going to hell it is where I am going to spend all eternity with no chance of forgiveness. But I still do not understand if god gives me a fire proof body or this one will come back? OH what if I am cremated he would have to un-burn my body and then make it fire proof. But it will need to still able to cause me great pain. god is so loving to come up with a hi-tech torcher like that.
 
Yes I am obsessed with going to hell it is where I am going to spend all eternity with no chance of forgiveness…
Why is this? Wouldn’t you rather enjoy a rather pleasant time in heaven? It’s your choice, you know.
 
Why is this? Wouldn’t you rather enjoy a rather pleasant time in heaven? It’s your choice, you know.
What do I have to do so I can get fire insurance like you.

A man bought 2 puppies he loved them very much. 1 dog had a good life and was a good dog so he let that one sleep on his bed. the other dog had a traumatic event happen when he was a puppy. (I think it was hit by a car.) After the accident the dog was changed it did not seem to love the master any more. It did not hurt the man or do any thing to heart anyone. The dog just did not love hem anymore the dog felt betrayed by the man. So the man built a cage in his basement he put dog it and would burn the dog with cigarettes and beat that dog daily. He spent all his time making the one dog happy wall torchering the other one.He is a godly man who modeled his life after god life. He could of put the dog to sleep but what would god do?
 
What do I have to do so I can get fire insurance like you.

A man bought 2 puppies he loved them very much. 1 dog had a good life and was a good dog so he let that one sleep on his bed. the other dog had a traumatic event happen when he was a puppy. (I think it was hit by a car.) After the accident the dog was changed it did not seem to love the master any more. It did not hurt the man or do any thing to heart anyone. The dog just did not love hem anymore the dog felt betrayed by the man. So the man built a cage in his basement he put dog it and would burn the dog with cigarettes and beat that dog daily. He spent all his time making the one dog happy wall torchering the other one.He is a godly man who modeled his life after god life. He could of put the dog to sleep but what would god do?
So the dog basically resented the man because he let the dog get hit, even though the dog, of his own volition, went out on the road where it could get hit? The dog resented the man who nursed it back to health?

It seems like you are a little smarter than the dog. If you stopped loving God, it isn’t because God quit loving you, no matter how much you may (or may not have) suffered in this life.

Loving God is your choice. Heaven or hell is your choice.

BTW, when you get your answer to “fire insurance”, let me know where you can get it from. Catholics don’t sell “fire insurance”. Some of our Separated Brethren peddle it (assurance of going to heaven), but I don’t know how they can claim to divvy out the settlements.
 
So the dog basically resented the man because he let the dog get hit, even though the dog, of his own volition, went out on the road where it could get hit? The dog resented the man who nursed it back to health?

It seems like you are a little smarter than the dog. If you stopped loving God, it isn’t because God quit loving you, no matter how much you may (or may not have) suffered in this life.

Loving God is your choice. Heaven or hell is your choice.

BTW, when you get your answer to “fire insurance”, let me know where you can get it from. Catholics don’t sell “fire insurance”. Some of our Separated Brethren peddle it (assurance of going to heaven), but I don’t know how they can claim to divvy out the settlements.
I do not think I am smart as a dog but why do you call god loving when he sends most of us to hell? I think the point of the story was to show, most people are not as cruel as your god.

I asked god if he loved me. I did not hear anything. I will believe in god when he starts talking to me.

How is your church any different than fire insurance?
I go to a broker. You go to a priest.
I sign a contract. You make a vow
I pay a bill. You pay a 10% to the church
My house burns I get a new one. You get to believe in fairytales through your whole adult life.
 
And why did Jesus tell the thief that he would join him in paradise on that day if he was to be ministering to the souls in Hell according to Peter? I never understood this
The word paradise, paradisio, is the garden in Eden or any royal garden that is fenced in, a game preserve would qualify.

In Eden, there was a tree of life – and a tree of knowledge (death).
Jesus words may be taken Ironically – eg: They were dying on the trees (crosses).
para-deis-os. And yet, Jesus is himself the life and resurrection and the king.

The word appears distinctly Persian, as attempts to find “deis” as a noun in Greek generally fail. There is another distinct trait of paradise / eden / garden. In the usage of “paradise house”, or the garden of the house, is the traditional burying place of a great man, chieftan, or leader.

There is also a tie in between the ark of the covenant, which had cherubim guarding it – and the Garden of Eden which too – had cherubim guarding it on the Eastern side. The Cherubim were the “horses” of the Lord’s chariot – and Jesus says of the cross; “Now is the prince of this world cast out.”
In the tomb, at the resurrection, there are angels seen at either side of the place where Jesus laid. This is again, the cherubim upon the ark of the covenant – which is the WAR chariot upon which YHWH rode and from where he spoke to Moses.

There are a few points here worth mentioning.

Gates of hell, as in Mt. 16:18, are a defense mechansim of a city – presumably the city of death (sheol). These shall not be strong under her (the church), that again re-inforces the notion that God is going to break into the devil’s stronghold city – that of death – and take captives as well as free prisoners.
Again, St. Peter does not mention the JUST in the bosom of Abraham, but rather those who had DIS-OBEYED as far back as the time of Noah. Jesus, it would appear, took some who deserved hell as captives for some purpose in heaven.
This would be an act of mercy, purely.
The “hell” that Jesus was in [from the Greek, “hades”] is nothing but the grave where all the dead end up.
That’s not quite correct. The grave, is the “pit”, or “abyss”. Hades is a seperate idea, as is tartarus – which is mentioned in relation to the Devil’s fall. Two different but related ideas. Not all end up in one or the other – hades was the gentler of the two.
Acts 2:27 is better translated “Because thou wilt not leave my soul IN THE GRAVE [rather than “in hell”]….” Also, Acts 2:31 is better rendered, “He [David] seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left IN THE GRAVE [hades], neither his flesh did see corruption.” The Greek “hades” translated “hell” simply means “the grave” or a place of burial in the ground.
Your idea makes sense except for one thing: The human soul flies upward according to scripture, only the souls of the animals flow back into the ground.
The spirit is not a physical thing that it should fit in a hole once separated from the body.
What happened to Jesus also happened to the rich man and to Lazarus in Jesus’ parable. Jesus said of the rich man: “…The rich man also died, and was buried” (Luke 16:22). And during that state of being buried, Jesus said: “And in hell [Greek, hades] he lifted up his eyes….”
Where was the rich man when he lifted up his eyes? Just like Jesus, he was in a placed called “hades” – he was in the grave. Jesus, too, lifted up His eyes – when He was resurrected – in the grave. The rich man likewise lifted up his eyes from the grave during his resurrection.
OK.
Jesus died. Jesus was buried. Jesus was in the grave. For three days and three nights He laid in the grave until that time when He opened His eyes at His resurrection. Jesus did not go anywhere during those three days and three nights that He was in the grave. How could He? He was dead and buried. “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, on that very day his thoughts perish” (Psalm 146:4).
That psalm is talking about the wicked, the “princes” in whom one ought not place their trust. This is a psalm of the wicked sinner who returns to dust for his sins – it does not apply to Jesus that I can see.
“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything…” (Eccl. 9:5).
This, I think is out of context – for he is proposing a hypothesis that all fortunes are the same; and immortality is unreachable. Therefore, he does not speak of those to be resurrected – to the contrary, Jonas, being in the pit – in the Guts of a fish – being digested – he cries out and prays to the lord. One can’t pray unless one knows. Jonas was dead, that is why the sign of Jonas is what Jesus gave them.
Doctrine of the Catholic Church

**CCC 633 “**Scripture calls the abode of the dead, … which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” **Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.”
**

And yet, from Peter’s discourse the above CCC is qualified. He did go to save some whom were disobedient at the time of the flood of Noah.
Who were these people, certainly NOT the just – for the Just entered the ark in obedience. As the scriptures also say, he took captives on high and gave gifts to men. That is not to say that the captives he took are the same as the Just – but that they serve some purpose in God’s kingdom eternal.
**
…more…
 
If Jesus was able to visit places when He was supposed to have been dead and buried, then Jesus did not really die. If that is so, then we are all lost, for only His death can atone for our sins.
illogical. Sheol is not a “place” any more than “tartarus”.
“Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day… For David is not ascended into the heavens…” (Acts 2:29-34).
His body remained in the grave, but scriptures do say that at Jesus’ death the graves of many were opened. David sinned, and his body corrupted and remained.
Your judgement of David is not supported by God’s resurrection of others in preference to him.
Now, when Jesus showed Himself to Mary Magdalene that Sunday morning after His resurrection, “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father…” (John 20:17). Clearly, Jesus did not go to heaven; much less opened its gates, during the time when He was dead. If He did not go to heaven, why would He go to Hell and to Purgatory – assuming those places even exist?
Too much to tackle here. The women grabbed his feet, read of Ruth and Booz, notice also in Matthew 16:18 the word used is apokalypse: the unveiling of the bride. Ruth too had to let go of Booz feet, until Booz had secured the wedding.
I think you are missing the context of these statements you are quoting – although they are somewhat consistent, they aren’t deep enough.

Peace to you.
–Andrew.
 
I do not think I am smart as a dog but why do you call god loving when he sends most of us to hell? I think the point of the story was to show, most people are not as cruel as your god.
What has my God done to you that is cruel? Didn’t He give you life?
I asked god if he loved me. I did not hear anything. I will believe in god when he starts talking to me.
Ahhhhh, smart answer! “God, you are omniscient and All Powerful and whatnot, but I’m going to deal you on my terms, not yours!” Now I think I understand your problem. Good luck with that plan, my brother.
How is your church any different than fire insurance?
I go to a broker. You go to a priest.
I sign a contract. You make a vow
I pay a bill. You pay a 10% to the church
My house burns I get a new one. You get to believe in fairytales through your whole adult life.
My Church involves Faith, Hope, and Love. Without it, I am nothing.

You don’t like your fire insurance, you break it and go to another. Not much different than prostitution.
 
What has my God done to you that is cruel? Didn’t He give you life?

Ahhhhh, smart answer! “God, you are omniscient and All Powerful and whatnot, but I’m going to deal you on my terms, not yours!” Now I think I understand your problem. Good luck with that plan, my brother.

My Church involves Faith, Hope, and Love. Without it, I am nothing.

You don’t like your fire insurance, you break it and go to another. Not much different than prostitution.
Your god has done nothing to me because he douse not exist. Life evolved open your mind.
Where your argument brakes down is there is no god.
I do not need faith I have something 100 times more powerful it is called logic.
 
Many translations of the Apostles Creed say ‘he descended to the dead’ rather than ‘he descended into hell’, to avoid the potential confusion.

Jesus is God. Hell of the damned is by definition a place from which God is absent, ergo Jesus could not possibly have gone there - it would’ve ceased to be hell of the damned if He had been present there.

Where He DID go was to what has been referred to as ‘Abraham’s bosom’ - a limbo state where those souls who were awaiting His saving passion were, since they could not enter heaven beforehand.

And as has been pointed out, Peter clarifies things when in his epistle he speaks of Jesus preaching to the dead.
Yes Lily m, this and what Not worthy and Roman Army have posted is what the Catholic Church teaches.:)👍 Carlan
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top